Why the party isn't over

With people like Peter Mandelson, James Purnell, John Hutton, Caroline Flint, Hazel Blears... pretty much all of the deeply flawed, amoral and unattractive Blair worshiping falange of the cabinet... there is no hope of the expressing of any moral values in Labour policy. These people are not interested in "what is right" but only in what they think "will work". A supine and spineless Parliamentary Labour Party stood by while these people practised it. The fact that less than three dozen Labour MPs voted against Purnell's invidious welfare reform bill show conclusively how useless it is to vote Labour any more in the hope of achieving a fair and just society. Personally I will be voting for the candidate most likely to DEFEAT the two Conservative Party's candidates and deny an MP to both the Tory (Conservative) and neo-Tory (New Labour) parties.

You are mistaken, Ms. Burnell.

The party IS well and truly over.

Can the last person to leave please put the light out and slam the door shut?

Goodnight, all.

Ah Can’t resist.point by point.

Yes he’s reduced debt, but let’s consider the 227Bn that’s off balance sheet in the form of PFI? Or do you want to believe the spin? The IMF aren't the media, they has consistently pointed out record levels of debt, the last time being yesterday. An economies ability to spend is governmental and consumer, consumers are owe 186% of earnings, that stops them spending. The Government did have its hands tied with fiscal rules until it broke them.

In the 12 years he’s been in 16.m jobs created 1.2m in the public sector – well done, that sustainable. He’s poured billions into job creation schemes and absolutely nothing for it in return. This is not media spin – its public domain. On entry into number 10 in 1997 unemployment was 1.85m. We are over 2m again and its climbing fast. Because everyone can have a degree these days 600,000 grads are going to hit the labour market this summer, hello 2.5m. What does Elizabeth say to the working class kid duped into spending 3 years doing a media studies degree with a 20,000 student loan coming into this economic climate? I know what you’ll say – Its the Tories. They did it.

A 10-15% improvement in the NHS for a 300-400% investment?

His lack of regulation caused the banking crisis. Even David Blunketts dog is aware of this.

“Can you imagine what would have happened if we couldn't get access to our money from the banks. There would've been rioting in the streets.” You really believe the strap line the do nothing party? Salesman Brown at his best. Oh yes thick Britain the Tories would do nothing and we’ll be in the toilet.

“I am not worried at all about the debt of the country for future generations---yes we will have to pay extra taxes-- so what--Everything is being done to reduce the damage of the downturn by this Government-“ I’ll re write this for you. I’m so indoctrinated and biased that I will ignore anything that I don’t want to believe in.

“Frank Field & Tam Dalyell are entitled to give their opinions on the party they represent and if they are unhappy they will raise this in the house and also in public. So definitely Labour is not full of yes men as you stated.
That is the difference between the parties. Labour MPs will challenge decisions they don't agree with-- You will not find this amongst the opposition parties. It is widely reported that David Cameron has sent out a warning telling his MPs that they must project unity.
Not Healthy eh!”

This is exactly what Tony did in 1997. Did John Precott fit New Labour – no way. He was the enforcer that Blair used to silence the true left. It’s hilarious that for the last 12 years any dissent has been crushed with ruthless efficiency, what do you think Campbell and Macbride were employed to do? You throw the allegation at the Tories, there all at it.

“It surprises me that you compere the stimulus that Obama put in place to that of UK. have you seen what Obama has got to deal with--They don't have a health service in place for anybody losing there jobs--he has got to continue paying their health insurance while trying to set up a Health service similar to the NHS.The unemployment in the US is around 9% of the population.” You’re well out of your depth lady; a string of sentences that combine to say nothing. I said Obama is investing in long structural spending that will deliver benefits long after the money’s handed over. (As it happens the US still spend heavily on welfare and other federal and state programs for the poor. Projected figures for 2009: GDP is 291Bn and welfare spending 7.73Bn that’s about 1/3rd.) By its very nature a stimulus package is over and above what you are scheduled to spend anyway. I am saying that on Gordon’s record the money will go up in smoke.

You seem to have an uncanny knack of repeating Brown's rhetoric. Have you really swallowed the BS hook line and sinker?

You are a classic apologist in the true sense of the expression, no matter how badly Gordon gets it wrong you’re blaming the blue team. Labour need some real introspection to help the country not apologists.

We don’t need silly blind unwavering support for the despotic shower that is Brown - WE NEED A NEW LEADER NOW who understands the crisis that Brown has caused. Hello austerity here we come.

Ah Can’t resist.point by point.

Yes he’s reduced debt, but let’s consider the 227Bn that’s off balance sheet in the form of PFI? Or do you want to believe the spin?

In the 12 years he’s been in 16.m jobs created 1.2m in the public sector – well done, that sustainable. He’s poured billions into job creation schemes and absolutely nothing for it in return. This is not media spin – its public domain. On entry into number 10 in 1997 unemployment was 1.85m. We are over 2m again and its climbing facst. Because everyone can have a degree these days 600,000 grads are going to hit the labour market this summer, hello 2.5m. What does Elizabeth say to the working class kid duped into spending 3 years doing a media studies degree with a 20,000 student loan coming into this economic climate? I know what you’ll say – Its the Tories. They did it.

A 10-15% improvement in the NHS for a 300-400% investment?

His lack of regulation caused the banking crisis. Even David Blunketts dog is aware of this.

“Can you imagine what would have happened if we couldn't get access to our money from the banks. There would've been rioting in the streets.” You really believe the strap line the do nothing party? Salesman Brown at his best. Oh yes thick Britain the Tories would do nothing and we’ll be in the toilet.

“I am not worried at all about the debt of the country for future generations---yes we will have to pay extra taxes-- so what--Everything is being done to reduce the damage of the downturn by this Government-“ I’ll re write this for you. I’m so indoctrinated and biased that I will ignore anything that I don’t want to believe in.

“Frank Field & Tam Dalyell are entitled to give their opinions on the party they represent and if they are unhappy they will raise this in the house and also in public. So definitely Labour is not full of yes men as you stated.
That is the difference between the parties. Labour MPs will challenge decisions they don't agree with-- You will not find this amongst the opposition parties. It is widely reported that David Cameron has sent out a warning telling his MPs that they must project unity.
Not Healthy eh!”

This is exactly what Tony did in 1997. Did John Precott fit New Labour – no way. He was the enforcer that Blair used to silence the true left. It’s hilarious that for the last 12 years any dissent has been crushed with ruthless efficiency, what do you think Campbell and Macbride were employed to do? You throw the allegation at the Tories, there all at it.

“It surprises me that you compere the stimulus that Obama put in place to that of UK. have you seen what Obama has got to deal with--They don't have a health service in place for anybody losing there jobs--he has got to continue paying their health insurance while trying to set up a Health service similar to the NHS.The unemployment in the US is around 9% of the population.” You’re well out of your depth lady; a string of sentences that combine to say nothing. I said Obama is investing in long structural spending that will deliver benefits long after the money’s handed over. (As it happens the US still spend heavily on welfare and other federal and state programs for the poor. Projected figures for 2009: GDP is 291Bn and welfare spending 7.73Bn that’s about 1/3rd.) By its very nature a stimulus package is over and above what you are scheduled to spend anyway. I am saying that on Gordon’s record the money will go up in smoke.

You are a classic apologist in the true sense of the expression, no matter how badly Gordon gets it wrong you’re blaming the blue team. Labour need some real introspection to help the country not apologists.

WE NEED A NEW LEADER NOW.

Err no, I am an Economics & politics grad, I look up the figures for myself and draw real conclusions.

Not going to bother any more. Lap up the spin, your doing a great job. In the meantime the polls are killing Gordon.

Rik

You believe what you hear from the media.

Gordon brown did reduce public debt during his chancellorship--

He also did what Governments are supposed to do and that is to improve our services and our living standards.

When something as serious as the collapse of the banking system occurs then it is only Governments that can provide the finance to save them.
Can you imagine what would have happened if we couldn't get access to our money from the banks. There would've been rioting in the streets.

The Tories still haven't understood the Global financial tsunami and keep on about the debt for years and years. Giving no solutions and would do nothing but let the recession take it course.
That means no help for the people as events daily Government needs to respond accordingly.

I am not worried at all about the debt of the country for future generations---yes we will have to pay extra taxes-- so what--
Everything is being done to reduce the damage of the downturn by this Government-

Frank Field & Tam Dalyell are entitled to give their opinions on the party they represent and if they are unhappy they will raise this in the house and also in public. So definitely Labour is not full of
yes men as you stated.
That is the difference between the parties. Labour MPs will challenge decisions they don't agree with-- You will not find this amongst the opposition parties. It is widely reported that David Cameron has sent out a warning telling his MPs that they must project unity.
Not Healthy eh!

It surprises me that you compere the stimulus that Obama put in place to that of UK.
have you seen what Obama has got to deal with--They don't have a health service in place for anybody losing there jobs--he has got to continue paying their health insurance while trying to set up a Health service similar to the NHS.The unemployment in the US is around 9% of the population.

Unemployment was reduced under this Government. It was around 3m at one point under the Tories. Labour had unemployment at just under 1m. The recession and the collapse of the banks has caused unemplyment to rise--which is certainly sad for the people affected--However in past recessions there wasn't the help available that's been put in place by Gordon Brown & Alistair Darling--
There are areas throughout the UK who never recovered after the recession of the eighties---That's why we need a fourth term for Labour they are the only party that will continue to improve the lives of ordinary people.

RIK--Check Labours acievements since 1997 they are certainly something to be proud of.

You said that people like me keep the class war going--
Nothing to do with it --
The politics are the most important and their effects on ordinary people.
Conservatives have said they will remove the minimum wage if they get in that is an example of what to expect.

Presuming that the "seven days for reflection" also allows the Labourlist time to advertise the job vacancy, and then interview

Can't quite find the reference in the employment legislation, but I'm sure that someone more knowledgeable than me can regurgitate it.

Elizabeth you said:
I don't profess to be an economist but if you're listening to those who appear on TV who call themselves economists believe me I am satisfied that I can identify what Gordon brown & Alistair Darling have put in place will shorten the downturn.

May I suggest this reads more like: I so blindly believe in Gordon that it doesn’t matter what anyone else says I believe what Gordon says.

I am very glad your father introduced you to politics, it’s the only way to shape the destiny of the country and the well being of society. I am saddened by the class politics that you believe in. In my eyes those who treat people differently on class grounds are no different to racists. You serve merely to divide not to bring people together.

You say that you believe Gordon Brown used the parliamentary road to socialism when as chancellor we all benefited from the good times not just the wealthy. I disagree completely. He has shafted the working classes. His economic miracle was based upon:

* Increasing the Government income from the city
* Channeling tax receipts from the city into public services and government spending.
* Increasing personal debt which was freely available in 1997 from 110% to 186% of gross income - thereby pumping un-earned cash into the economy
* A house price bubble

The results:
* Unfortunately his regulation of the city failed – he set up the FSA.
* Tax receipts are down, debts are massive and he can’t go on spending to drive the economy. The employed suffer first, both working and middle class.
* House prices are err??

The issue though is the wasted opportunity, what could have been achieved over those 12 years? The focus on the city should have been matched with building a real economy that provides employment for the working classes, reducing real un employment, the pensions crisis. In my view if he had taken a little more time with the investment put in and got a decent return nobody could argue with him. Instead he spent money like there was no tomorrow with chronic waste.

Imagine if in 1997 a programme had been established to link London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Scotland with a high speed rail link to ensure the wealth got spread around a little out of the south east? Imagine if the tax system had been seriously reformed so that as well as the minimum wage anyone earning under £25k would pay little to no tax. Would that incentivise people to work? Would we need all the imported Labour? Would less imported Labour mean less pressure on housing stock, lower prices and make it easier for the poorest?

If you re-read your post you’ll see that you haven’t cited any facts just opinion. I implore you to open your eyes and accept that Gordon might have got it wrong. Instead of indoctrinating your children with the them and us politics of “old school socialist working class rhetoric” – teach them to understand the facts, to look for the truth and to make their own minds up.

You call for a fourth term and yet in my view this Government Have done more to undermine the working classes than any Government in living memory. The reason is the sheer amount of debt that SOMEONE has to pay back. Debt that had to be taken on because of Brown failure in setting us up for any downturn. His current policy of more debt is the icing on the cake because the working classes will suffer more than anyone else in servicing the debt. The middle classes can afford better education and health. The working classes will pay in crap services, because that will be all the Government can afford and unemployment – thanks Gordon. I really want you to respond on this point.

Tam Dalyell & Frank Field are Labour MP’s who have no baggage, they do not toe anybodies line and just tell it as they see it. Here is a link to Frank’s Blogg: http://www.frankfield.com/blog/. Tam is referred to as the father of the house he was the longest serving MP he said: "Downing Street has become a viper's nest."

So how do reconcile your unwavering support of Brown and the amount of unemployment we are facing? Gordon’s answer is spend a fortune on what exactly? How about programmes that result in real Jobs? Hang on hasn’t Obama discussed pumping loads of cash into infrastructure spending? Oh yes the US will get a return on its investment. Gordon’s spend will compare to a Friday night out drinking, nothing to show for it but a credit card statement.

In conclusion Gordon has screwed the working classes – bring on the fourth term or start the debate on how to rebuild Britain! Does anyone in Labour have the vision to do this? We need another Nye Bevan, not Numpty Brown. The trouble is the cronyism and stifling of dissent against the wishes of Brown / Blair means the chamber is full of yes men without the spine and vision to achieve anything.

34? Bloody hell. I really thought he was a contemporary of Brown's!

And what is it with spin doctors and greasy hair?

Emma

Surely you disagree with the idea that an individual should have these kinds of advantages, just because they happen to be born to someone with political clout. Where's the equality in this situation? Are you happy to canvas on behalf of people like Emily Benn and Georgia Gould?

Rik
I don't profess to be an economist but if you're listening to those who appear on TV who call themselves economists believe me I am satisfied that I can identify what Gordon brown & Alistair Darling have put in place will shorten the downturn.

I am very proud that my late father discussed politics regularly in our home.

I remember being shocked that the beautiful Vanessa Redgrave the actress was part of the revolutionary group IE."The Workers Revolutionary party" I asked my father how could anyone shoot to kill or Mame somebody just because they disagreed with their politics.

He replied "always remember the upper classes will shoot you first to protect their status & wealth".History confirms this to be the case.

I believe in the parliamentary road to socialism.

I believe Gordon Brown used the parliamentary road to socialism when as chancellor we all benefited from the good times not just the wealthy.

Mrs.Thatcher wife of a millionaire(she provided Dennis Thatcher with his champagne and cigars paid for by the taxpayer)looked after her own family.It is widely reported her son Mark(who was a chancer) would've benefited by as much as £20m--There was an investigation into this by the National Audit office but the findings have never been published.

The Tories will never spend money to help ordinary families. They only look after their own.

Gordon Brown knows more than ever that it is only a Labour Government that will help the working classes.

It is because of the present moves to discredit our PM and Government that for the first time in my life I have become a member of the Labour Party. I know there will be many more people who will join the party in the fight against conservatism.

The Blogs are a help in our fight towards a fourth term.

Labour know they have a lot more to do.

We can watch Cameron & Osborne(no policies to fight a Global recession) and see them behave like children in the house of commons. The disrespect they show during PMQ'S gives us all an insight into their mentality.

I am not surprised that this man Guido Fawkes and the emails (hacked into Labour List)he put in the hands of the press to try to discredit Gordon Brown.
Everything I see and read about this Tory Party and their actions confirms what I believe about them. They are clutching at straws losing the political battle and need Fawkes and his Blog to keep them in the public eye.

Charles Hardwidge

The socialist thing might bug you but I won't apologise for being one.
I am proud of my principles.I pass them on to my children and my grandchildren to make for a more caring society.

Guido who? (o;

Actually, you don't need to read Guido, the Damster is only 34(!!!) and has a complection that would have Father Christmas reaching for the Oil of Olay and him and Gordon look the same age when pictured together. I don't think he eats his five porions of fruit and veg either.

Charlie, you've been reading Guido!

You have your opinion of the people at the top of the Labour tree, I have mine. I know which opinion seems to have most evidence in its favour.

I'd love to agree with you on Tax Credits, but the problem is the system was spoiled for a ha'porth of jam... The system used is so unworkable, its laughable. I know people that have been overpaid by thousands and have been paying it back for years. These are people that are amongst the poorest in society. Whats the point saying you'll pay them x amount, when in actual fact the system takes half of that away for 5 years or so. The thing is, its not isolated incidents: I know several people in the same circumstances. If someone phones up the tax credits people with changes, those changes should be reflected in immediate changes to payments. If the system is so complex or so oversubscribed that changes get left, then the system should be changed. You have to be in the system to understand how unworkable it really is.

I'm not saying that being on jobseekers should be a prerequisite for being an MP, but that MPs in parliament should reflect society, so there should be at least someone out of the 464 that has had experience of being on jobseekers.
As for young people, yes they should be included, but they shouldn't be over-represented.

By a professional politician (or career politician if you want another phrase), I mean someone whose raison-d'etre is to get to be an MP and then do whatever it takes to stay being an MP whilst milking the situation for all its worth. I've seen the same thing happen in management where people push to get into management positions with little experience and it makes for very short-lived companies. I'm reminded of the Terminal 5 debacle at Heathrow. Poor leadership and poor management choices led to a disaster. This weekend was Labours "T5 moment".

We can agree to differ, but Labour really does need to go away for a while. The arrogance, bullying and self-service that has come out of government for the past 5 years or more needs to be cleansed.

It may well be that a way round all of this is to have maximum lengths of office. 2 terms as an MP would probably be my maximum. Both this government and the Conservatives before them proved that its the third term where things go to pot. An identifiable end to someones term of office would remove a lot of distraction in government.

As for what happens to the less fortunate while Labour are out of office: Tough. Labour activists should have borne that in mind when they let their leadership get away with so much abuse of the system it turns the population against them. If Labour stuck to its core values and plotted a sustainable financial future for all, rather than get in bed with the bankers, it would have carried on.

Poor old Damian, it was a double blow for him, on the day he lost his job, James 'Feed Me!' Purnell is stopping benefits to drunks.

I think the party just hit rock bottom

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7999671.stm

Does serious breech equate to police action?

What have you brought such embarrassment to the party?

...and why has the blog been edited so that Draper's blog apology has gone?

...and edited to show that it has now reappeared

Yup. That socialist thing bugs me as well just as much as the Thatcherite thing. People have their views of left and right, Gordon Brown's leadership, and the working class but I'd suggest people might benefit from taking a step back from that.

Gordon Brown is a perfectionist and has his flaws. I agree, his would benefit from tacking in a different direction but people can get a bit obsessive about these things. Taking the time to understand and not let Cameron fan the flames would help people see things more clearly and feel better.

Perhaps, Brown didn't weigh the practical concerns carefully enough or persuade people that the CBI and Tory party's opposition to change was unhelpful but the economic disaster is an opportunity to fix things so they work better. Labour are refocusing but the Tories would just drag us back.

Elizabeth, please only discuss Economics if you are qualified to do so. The financial situation in the UK is the laughing stock of the people in Pakistan. Everyone knows that the UK is in dire straits. The point you make about debt, do you applaud Gordon for allowing finance companies the ability to loan more than what families can afford to pay and the associated pain that that causes? Are you proud of that?

Please do not take this the wrong way: I loathe the word socialist I do not loathe you even though you call yourself one. To me its a tribal term that says "blinkered", if its left its good. Well the sad truth is that Gordons Labour is neither right or left, its all about him, his methods are reprehensible. What we need now is a new politic that gives us the fair society that we want without Bulllshittt class based rhetoric and the evil ways of McBride and Brown.

BTW:When I say working classes in my posts its a term that I use for those we traditionally associate as working class but not in a them and us fashion as some do when the term toffs.

I don't think we can remove the 'right' within from the outside. It is much easier to do this from within what should be a socialist party. Without making a stand now how will it be possible to hold ground in another party with even less of a socialist heritage? This is not just a brand, the Labour Party stands for something and giving ground is not somethng I intend to do. I say if you are a socialist then you should wake up to the crisis and fight against the urge to run. Fear is a mindkiller, despair is a mindkiller but with the winning perspective there is no fear and there is no despair. The winning point of view is built on socialist principles; social justice, comradeship and the most important albeit least understood; equality. Equality deserves a special place, today.

Hear hear. I thought New Labour hated the toffy nosed hereditary principle.

How unprincipled, how very New Labour!

Emma you might want to take a look at John Harris' CiF article today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/15/damien-mcbride-georgia-gould-labour
and have a little think about exactly what this Party of yours stands for. Particularly in the context of the decision to select 17-year old Ms Emily Benn as PPC for Worthing East.

This intellectual giant, whose CV to date reads "Went to skool and did my sumz" has exactly what to offer to the country? Apart from the fact that Daddy and Mummy both suck at the public tit as quangocrats, Uncle Hilary is an MP and so was Granddaddy Tony, and Great Gramps and Great-Great Gramps both sat in the House of Lords, so when she eventually becomes an MP she will be the 5th successive generation of her family never to have had a proper job.

This person, with nothing to offer other than a quite monumentally swollen idea of her own importance, will then be allowed to sit in Parliament and vote on laws that grown-ups like me will have to obey.

Her and 'Georgia Gould'.

Thats true, although unlike the Greens the Lib Dems have at least a small chance of getting into power. And although I am no fan of Nick Clegg there are lots of good people in the Lib Dems and their policy (for the moment at least) is by far the most progressive of the three major parties

Louis, The Greens definately ARE Left of centre. I am not so sure about the LibDems now that Nick Clegg is leader - he seems like a blend of Blair and Cameron to me, but obviously to each his own. But at least Clegg is to the Left of James Purnell (but then MOST people are to the left of........

I cannot for the life of me understand how you cling on in deperation to this party. They are devoid of ideas, have no morals and appear to be quite happy to line their own pockets. Where is your so called social justice? When senior politicians in a position of trust take tax payers money - because its is within the rules rather than because they need it to live then they are nothing other than crooks.

Get this lot out now

I assume that becuase this comment is anti-labour you will not have the b**lls ( and not Ed) to print it - prove me wrong so called socialist

Emma, you are completely right. The Labour party has been taken over by neo-liberal people with no seemingly left wing values at all in the past decade. I had hoped that the situation would improve under Brown, but it has only got worse, with our civil liberties being further eroded every day. However, I no longer think that Labour is a feasible option, as I cannot see the left, much as it dominates the party membership and even the parliamentary party, taking back this now widely discredited party any time soon. And kevin, although a few years in the wilderness might do good for the party it will not be good for the country, Tory rule would be disastrous at this crucial point in time and I worry that more time spent in the wilderness will drive the party even further to the right and not to the left. In my opinion, no left winger can now vote for the government without betraying their values, so rather than trying to reform the party from the inside maybe we should abandon Labour for a different party (Liberal Democrats, Greens eg)

Any mods in??

Agreed, the underclass has expanded beyond what I would have believed possible

" As a democrat, I know sometimes I'll win and sometimes I'll lose. As a collectivist, I will accept when I do lose."

Let's be honest the Labour Party in the last 12 years has reduced the freedom of the people of this country. As for being a democrat they are not even able to elect their own leader or allow the people a promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty

I have just left my first comment and was staggered to see that my comment has to be approved by the 'Administrator'before being printed.
How pathetic is that??

"And we are being let down. By the adoption of policies that are as destructive as they are electorally ignorant;"

Emma, how naive can you get? You are not being let down, this is what happens when you don't have candidates for the leadership of the largest Party in Parliament, and stand by when a known bully forces and intimidates his way to the top.
It was a complete travesty, as is the refusal to offer the electorate a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

Dear Emma

You should join Save the Labour Party. See our newsletter for CLPs and branches - Prise - as in open.

Peter Kenyon
member, Labour Party NEC - constituency section
chair, Save the Labour Party

http://www.savethelabourparty.org

I think you are spot on Kevin. We need more idealists and less careerists.

As for asinine revisionism, where have I made any historical reference that wasn't true?

Indeed, Labour are the great defenders of liberty, a topsy-turvy world where Labour has created 143 new ways to enter your home without a warrant?

Given 200 public bodies the legal powers to put your home under surveillance including phone tapping.

Has millions of innocent children on a DNA database and is putting all children on a database 'for their protection'.

Wants to introduce ID cards.

Can read our e-mail and also keep it for seven years.

Governs a country with more CCTV per head of population than anywhere else in the world including North Korea and China.

Yet frees 250 immigrant rapist and murderers because it infringes their human rights - and they proceed to rape and murder again.

Some liberty.

And this is Labour standing up to tyranny? Conservatives rip up ID Cards not create them.

In terms of command and control, what exactly was nationalisation and Clause 4? I don't remember the Tories believing in owning the means of production.

How weak.

I shall leave you with this quote: "Those who prefer security to liberty deserve neither".

Like I said, you need to stop the delusion and get out more, the world has changed nobody wants socialism anymore.

All governments end up clinging to power by whatever method they can at the end of their turgid lives.

Party politics is to blame, the herd instinct and the nature of some sub-humans to pull a fast one and think they are invincible.

The Cons and LibDems would both suffer the same fate given the same position. Mainstream party domination of politics is just the sort of recipe for this disgusting and selfish behaviour. There is the same type of shit that floats to the top in all parties.

For local accountability, smaller government and less sewerage vote independent.

Whilst it would be nice to have ten years out of office to do total rebuild on the party and purge those who betrayed from the top it does ignore the reality of the times. We have a gathering depression on a par with the thirties and the extreme right are stirring and not just within the BNP, the populace at large are moving in a unhealthy direction. Searching in panic for a return to the former normacly they will naturally grab at the simple solutions, the wrong solutions. See how Cameron, the man with no policies, exploits this and think about what will happen when the depression actually arrives in full! Denial and hiding within internal party disputes will only make the left vulnerable and that weakness will be exploited beyond a democratic vote. A silent purge in which those who have betrayed the principles of socialism are sent to the heart of coventry is better than open warfare within. This is no time for a civil war but neither is it a time to tolerate the status quo. James Purnell is not the problem, it is the times.

My sentiments exactly. Although a long-term SNP supporter, I too danced as the results of the 1997 election came through. The only difference now between the scum that is Labour in Westminster and the scum that is Labour in Scotland is that the North British version is even more corrupt and incompetent, and it grasps the Scottish media even more firmly in the loathesome tentacles of its Scottish McBrides.

Your pennysworth was well worth a quid (or two).

It was, as you point out, the Bennite tendency and the Campaign group who were the focus of much the New Labour infighting as you point out. Some were gaming the system, and intellectual bullies etc. but while I supported the move to a more electable centre, the understandable paranoia of the central party over the loony left soon became an excuse for all kinds of control freakery. I bought into then for electoral reasons, but I could immediately see the loss of diversity of ideas.

A healthy political party should be able to tolerate debate: it should also have some ideological divisions, with reasonably held differences of opinion and competition of ideas. Otherwise it smothers itself in groupthink and soon becomes ill equipped to deal with the changing times.

Of course, what makes the 1980s so special is the rise of Thatcher Reagan and then, in 1989, the demise of 'actually existing socialism' in most its forms. Though soft left myself, I always found the critique from the hard left stimulating and energising. When that decayed into academic cultural theory and situationist posturing, a lot of the excitement and air left the ward meeting room.

But (and this is a bit out of place on a blog like this since it's a serious question) where is the focused post 1989 debate? I see glimmerings of it here and there, but most of reaction to the current financial malaise has reverted to 'capitalism is failing whoopeee' type. This is not going to either improve people's lives or attract long term support.

Anyway, reasoned dissent and a different perspective (i.e. learning something)_ was what was best about those meetings, and its good to have a reminder of it on a forum like this Duncan. Thanks

Can someone confirm whether McBride resigned from his job in Downing Street and remains in the civil service or resigned from the civil service?

This is all very inspiring but unfortunately since taking over from the Tories "New" Labour have proven to be ... well just another group of sleazy politicians on the make. Admittedly their brand of sleaze tends to be geared towards financial gain rather than the vastly more amusing sexual escapades of the "Old" Tory party (anyone for an orange?) but still pretty unpalatable for the average member of Joe public.

The real surprise is that the author of this post seems to think that the latest string of debacles are some new insidious trend in the party. They aren't, its just this time they actually got caught.

I'm afraid Emma that you may be in for a lot more disappointment if you continue to view this or any political party as a shining beacon of integrity rather than opportunists desperate to cling to power at almost any cost.

Winners learn to adapt the idealists tend to be runners up.

social justice =
non racist,
non homophobic,
non sexist.

and holding those who are non pro the state to account.

all the main parties will claim to be these. However on the last point given that Guido Fawkes is anti-state, I do not see anyone holding him to account.


---
Strange concept you have , of freedom of speech, in this country. No wonder those preachers of hate who are from the militant end of Islam feel so at home here.


---
re the concept of social justice

the phrase "social justice" is rather lovely, I do not feel that is something that is specific/particular to the labour party.

and for this reason I have made the distinction.

---

New Labour has been an effective party of social mobility. But given that "Old Labour" is anti- wealth...

---

was Mrs Thatcher also not for social mobilty?
in kinda a big way.

Have a go at reading "The Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich Hayek.

Emma,

You are the unelectable labour party of 'pre-blair' - brown has blown it, you have your 'labour party of perpetual opposition' back - I am delighted that you nutters will be busy fighting each other again - so not interfering with the good running of UK PLC.

Well - in for a penny, in for a pound! I've been called a Trot today once already... This is mythology. You talk about the 80s as though it was this period where Militant were in control of the party, and people with different views were shouted down. Militant was proscribed in 1982; the editorial board were expelled in 1983. Though Militant supporters remained in the party throughout the rest of the 80s, they were mostly members of the Young Socialists - idealistic kids, not the scary monsters of folklore. Hatton was a self-aggrandising prat, there were some others who weren't great. There were also some really good party members, really committed community activist who happened to be 'Militant'. The 'nastiness' that is often recalled though was not because of the size of the Militant Tendency, nor yet because of the dominance of Bennism in the constituencies (and in fact, it was far more the Bennite ascendency that the structural changes were brought in to tackle than it was Militant) - the 'nastiness' comes down to a fundamental weakness in most political parties: an inability to accept differences, debates and hear what everybody has to say. I'm not just levelling that accusation at the party right, actually - a lot of Militant people were just the same: you were class traitors if you disagreed, etc, etc. But if we're to have the renaissance you speak of (and I hope we do) then we have to grow up as a party. And when somebody like me argues for the policies I believe in, people shouldn't start banging on about 1983, using language like 'Trots' and all that anachronistic nonsense. And those of us the left shouldn't feel the need to apologise - we shouldn't have to say 'we don't mean let's go back to the 1980s' every time we make a speech or make a point. Because it always seems to me that it's some of those on the right who seem most firmly wedged in a 1980s headspace of witch-hunts and paranoia.

Fantastically well put Emma. Thank you.

Johnathon
"what are you talking about" Labour's record of improvement in many ways has been outstanding--check and compare the differences that are now in place--You believe the media--Nothing else to report so they can make these stories last for days and days such as the e'mails---
As a socialist I am proud of the achievements of the last 12years.
I am proud of Gordon Brown. He is a good man and has
never shown anything else other than he acts and behaves as a leader and a confident politician and is recognised as such throughout the world.
We should and will do everything possible to make sure that the true political message gets to every household in the country---

Conservatism we can beat--

The Tories have critisized Gordon Brown for creating a debt culture---What would have happened if he had refused low paid people the chance to finance for homes etc. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN AN OUTCRY from the media that it was only the wealthy that could benefit during the boom time.y

I don't believe everyone at the top of Labour is a thug or a spin merchant. I just think we too often let the fear of exile rule over our better instincts, and these include internal democracy.

Don't get me wrong - I don't agree with every policy decision that has been made in the last 12 years, but I'm sure that's true for everyone.

But I do know people whose lives have been radically changed for the better by Labour policies (and that includes Child Tax Credits). 10p tax was a mistake, and there have been others and will be others. But there have also been really great achievements and there will be more of those too. I will keep pushing for what I see as important improvements only a Labour Party in Government can make.

On the issue of professional politicians, I am extremely sceptical of this term as in itself it is completely meaningless. What is a professional politician other than someone who is paid to do it? When does someone who starts to be a politician become a professional - when they draw thier first pay check? When they've been doing it a year? Five years?

I have been on JSA in the past, and wouldn't make anyone going through that a prerequisite of entry into professional politics. The forms alone'll kill ya (to badly mangle Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid). I also wonder how we will get a socially diverse group of people without having a few interested young people? People who have been interested in politics from a young age have a right to a voice too.

Labour may or may not deserve a period in the wilderness - you and I will have to agree to differ on that one, but what happens to the poor and vulnerable in society while we sort out our internal structures? I think they deserve the best possible Labour Government, not the ideal Labour opposition.

Nice one Emma, But first you have to sweep Scunner Broon and all of his mates out of the door before building a real Labour Party.

In that case we agree. As I said, I fought against militant and the campaign group, but the party needs to reinvent its democratic roots (again). That means debate, and that means people who really believe in progressive causes argue things out in a reasoned way. So thanks for taking the time to respond to my comment.

Unfortunately, one of the side effects of command and control is disaffection and anger, so I'm sorry to see you having to deal with so many intemperate, unconstructive, and frankly unprogressive responses to your diary

I love it! The 'lack of policy and substance' you
always accuse Tories of relates, I presume, to our
leadership? Yet here in your blog for 'Labour Minded
People' who are all taking pot-shots at your own
leadership.

Just like Labour clearly have passionate and interested
supporters, you must surely be aware the Conservatives
aren't lacking in grass roots too.

Come and talk to real Tories on policy and substance.

Bring your pseudo-intellectual gushing faux-compassion
along to a meeting where you aren't surrounded by
like-minded halfway-house socialists.

We'll eat you alive, dear.

"The Labour Party should be a coalition of people who believe in hope, not hate. Progressive, not reactionary. Democratic, not autocratic."

What the hell does that mean? How does this claptrap differentiate you from the other parties?

I was expecting a gut-wrenching finale of "We will govern as New Labour"

>>The Labour Party should be a coalition of people who believe in hope, not hate.
Progressive, not reactionary. Democratic, not autocratic.<<

As I've said before, I wouldn't vote Labour if my life depended
on it, but Tom, that sounds pretty great to me, actually.

People like you (and not the lunatic above calling for socialist
militancy) would make Labour a real party again, instead of
the sad sham its become under Brown.

I agree that ordinary members having a voice and a say in politics is essential. But my memories of the way this occurred in the 80s were not of democratic conversations and reasoned debates.

The New Labour Command and Control model was a massive over-reaction to a massive problem. I don't want to stay as we are, nor do I want to see us return to the equally undemocratic ways of Militant shouting down all who dared oppose.

I think there must be ways of doing it better, ways of having open and discursive conferences that are controlled enough to give all who want one a voice, but a party that respects its internal democracy enough that when the decisions are made - democratically - they are then respected by believers in collective democracy.

People are suffering under this government Emma, have you seen the economy, unemployment is going sky high? There's an excrutiatingly posh-bloke (I know its fake but even so) who's already been kicked out of parliament once for being a crook standing up for police brutality on my telly, why on earth do you bother knocking on doors for people like Keith Vaz?

I believe that the majority of Labour supporters are honest, decent people that want the best for the country.

..but.... and it is a big but......... what on earth happened once Labour got into government? What a total disaster. Form 1997 onwards. It isn't just Iraq, or Brown's destruction of the nations finances. It's been a 12 year car crash.

Labour need to go away, gut the party and remove the swathes of idiots in control of the party and rebuild.

You are, however, going to have to work miracles before the electorate trust Labour again.

Thanks. It's the excellent and exhaustive work I see done by ordinary Labour representatives that make the slog worthwhile.

It's a difficult lesson but one it will be essential to remember, not just for the sake of the party, but for the people who will most suffer under a Tory Government.

Kevin,

I am talking about the interchange of ideas based on information freely available at anyone's fingertips... In the modern Western economies, the entire private sector economy is seeking to decentralise, to empower and put the decisions onto the shop floor and office.

And the public sector? Centralise and de-skill.

Mmmmmm.....

As for China, what a great advert for socialism, after killing millions and millions in failed socialist experiments, suppressing democracy demonstrations... they embrace... capitalism.

If that's the best you can do to defend your political philosophy to us proles... good luck because you will need it.

I think this is often the nub of the problem. The Party have done great things. I know people who's lives have been transformed by some of the policies of this Labour Government. But there seems both an inability and unwillingness to articulate this in a way that either inspires Labour activists, or makes sense to our voters.

We've never lived in a time where two way conversations was easier, yet so many members of the party, and our constituents, feel so unheard.

I'm happy to attack the Tories on substance (of which they have little) and policy (most of which seems to have been decided ad hoc with little thought to reality). I'm not happy to have people spreading idiotic rumours like Westminster is little more than a sixth form disco. Ideas are what matter, and you don't beat Guido by becoming him.

A positive platform of inspiring policies has to come first - people need something to vote for. And if we're talking naivety, no long term incumbent government is going to win votes by playing the "at least we're not" card - especially if they play it so ineptly.

In fact this has backfired so badly that genuine criticism of Tory politicians and policies are being lumped in to the same category and discarded by voters.

Before you categorise all left wing thinking as being 'top down command and control' you should perhaps study your history books a little.

Labour was born from grass roots organisation in chapels and workplaces. Time and time again, from the late 19th century to the end of the 20th, it has promoted legislation that stops the interference of the state in their private lives or workplaces.

The stalinist kind of socialism you describe was fought more vehemently by Labour's form of democratic socialism than the appeasing factions of the conservative party. When it comes to standing up to tyranny and command and control, Labour has a better record than most Tory politicians, and I include in that Margaret Thatcher, friend of Pinochet and P W Botha.

So less of your asinine revisionism please here. Like any party in power, Labour has control freaks who will manipulate to keep their sinecures. Criticise those who abuse their present positions all you like. But don't give us some perverse topsy turvey world where the right (who opposed every democratic reform on record) are somehow the avatars of liberty

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the distinction. I believe that a society that encourages better social mobility is a social just one, and a society that provides better support for the poorest is a just one, so for me the terms are interchangeable.

I did! Excellent reverse spell check there!

There needs to be a better and more inclusive policy making process, but I think that's worth fighting for, not giving up on.

Draper is a scruffy plonker. This is not a juvenile prank. He knows full well what he was in to. He has destroyed the party and any hope of winning the next election. Tories will rule for the next 10 years. Although Broon is the smiling face of the government his ruthlessness and willingness to employ the like of Draper and McBride reveal his lack of judgement. Welcome Tories you will walk the next election.

Why fear the socialist within? What is wrong with celebrating the bravery of Militant? I'm not talking idealogy but they did take Thatcher on rather than going into Stockholm syndrome on her. They may have scared the living daylights out of the left but they mortally terrified the right. Isn't that what is needed? Not too much but a little real radicalism back within the party? They may make Labour unelectable in traditional Tory strongholds but consider the results of believing you need such votes to win power? Now, the sleeping socialists need to wake up. The slumbering real left needs to take the power back from the interlopers within otherwise we'll see Nick Griffin striding into No10. This is not a return to the eighties - this could easily be a year before the fall of Rome.

http://wolf.readinglitho.co.uk/

Nice post, Emma. You have shown commendable loyalty and optimism.

It was always going to be tough campaigning for the likes of James Purnell to punish people for being unemployed, or for DCI Jacqui Smith, or for Harriet Harman to ban vaginal orgasms, but after this week it just seems counter-intuitive.

The Labour Party should be a coalition of people who believe in hope, not hate. Progressive, not reactionary. Democratic, not autocratic.

The public will now give Labour an absolute kicking in the European and Council elections. It will be a historic pummeling. I will be campaigning, but through gritted teeth.

"a poor Labour Government is still better than a good Tory one"

Ahhhhhahahahahahahaha!!!

Nope.

I think that a government this poor is not better than anything; even anarchy; even the worst Tory government your tendentious mind can conjure.

If you want Tony Blair as the President of the EU vote here:http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/tony-blair-for-president-of-the-eu.html

But if not vote here: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stopblair.html

This is the nearest we will get to any democracy in his appointment - so go and vote in these petitions.

Yes, all that bonded Labour supplyig cheap goodz to supermarkets gives the impression to blind fools of a really changed world, third way, liberalised & everything.

Think you have it right Emma.

There are still millions of people who need to have Labour MP's Councillors and MEP's to represent them in spite of the best efforts of others.

We forget that at our peril and a poor Labour Government is still better than a good Tory one.

Let's get some political analysis in here too.

You don't want to return to the 1980s, and we all know what you mean: militant, loony lefties, and Labour's long period in exile from government.

But I was very active in the 1980s, and fell out with all those loony lefties for the reasons you adduce, but you miss one thing. Membership went up. People felt like they had a voice.

Oddly enough, I supported the leadership when they imposed a central candidate on my then constituency (Greenwich) because I knew the Campaign groups semi Trotskyist activity was making us unelectable. They were also narrow minded on politics and economics, and apt to game the system. But I also detected the same bullying and manipulation from Walworth Road (Labour HQ at the time) and it is this form of control freakery and incestuous self regard that is now threatening the party rather than left wing militants.

So there is one thing worth rescuing from the 80s - a sense of involvement. Back then, you really felt like a ward resolution could make it to the floor of the Labour Party conference (albeit heavily composited and used by the unions). The disengagement now is alienating a generation or two, and rather than discourage criticism, the only way for the Labour Party to regain its progressive (and by this I don't mean militant) roots is to engage in honest argument. As John Stuart Mill said:

Complete liberty of contradicting and disproving our opinion, is the very condition which justifies us in assuming its truth for purposes of action; and on no other terms can a being with human faculties have any rational assurance of being right.

Emma - is this an unintentional job application to take over from the loathsome Derek Draper?

If not, it should be!

Is that discredited toad still supposedly the editor of this website?

Me too Martin -- I was ecstatic in '97 with a Labour win though it wasn't until '06 that Labour got me so angry that I took a keener interest in politics. From a Labour-lifer to a very active SNP member who works hard against Labour in every campaign I can. Not long now until the Europeans! Hurrah!

It will take a generation or two for Labour to understand that the world has really changed, it is upside-down to when Labour took office in 1997.

The world is a bottom-up world, people have more and more choice than ever before, more choice, more empowered decisions, more information to hand, ideas are freely available, opinion is everywhere. There is no top-down, command and control anymore. Economically, politically and socially.

It's a total anathema to any socialist doctrine, the total antithesis of any left wing philosophy.

Witness this paranoid and authoritarian government in action as they grapple to marry the more liberal Third Way to the modern world.

Please, please, please lurch Labour to the left again, the left wing politics are completely out of step with the world. The electorate have seen this country again be almost bankrupted by another Labour government. 1979 and now 2009... do you seriously think that the electorate is going to vote for more of the same any time soon?

I shall look forward to reading the 2015 manifesto as the second longest suicide note in history.

In the meantime at least you will have plenty to moan about in Opposition.

You forgot to mention INTEGRITY as the main requirement of a strong leader - without it you are nothing. The last Labour leader with integrity was Michael Foot - sadly we never found out what John Smith was really capable of.

Yes, attack Tories, that'll work.

It works far better than putting effort into proper social democratic policies doesn't it. It's far simpler to bash Tories eh?

If you hadn't realised, thats what the current crisis in the government is all about you idiot.

Hows about you go away for ooh, say 10 years and come back with some proper policies and a proper, accountable, representative leadership? That might do the trick.

Most hated Government ever?
Most hated Party ever?
Most hated PM ever?

I remember dancing in celebration when New Labour won in 97. More fool I. I abandoned Labour for good in 2003 and have voted SNP ever since.

I just don't understand how ANY decent human being can continue to support this utterly criminal and immoral party. How do they justify it to themselves? Can anyone explain this? What's in it for ordinary people?

At the next election I'll be dancing again, but it'll be on the grave of New Labour. How I yearn for the moment.

Here's hoping for more than a few "Portillo" moments. Watching them fall, one by one will be delicious.

Gordon Brown, Jacqui Smith, Harriet Harman and Jim Murphy for starters please.

Context drove the choices made over the past twenty years. Whilst New Labour lacked a true socialist analysis of context it could do little more than be driven into the current crisis. A Party does not operate in a socio-economic vacuum and if it is operating on auto-pilot then the inevitable happens comes the storm. The auto-pilot is now switched off and this reminds me so much of the last page in Orwells Animal Farm. I wonder who James Purnell would be?

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Archives2009/KunstlerApril13.html

I don't know why anyone with such high ideals would continue to work for the thugs and spin merchants Labour has at the top.

I mean, I could see why you'd do it while things were good... economy was delivering prosperity (albeit based on mountainous debt) and that prosperity helped a lot of middle England feel good. I could see how people could convince themselves Labour was making a difference.

Its a pity the poorest didn't get the boost they desperately needed, but hey life's tough. I mean, tax credits would have been a great system had it worked properly. But the way the system fucks things up by overpaying and then demanding money back for years afterwards even though you did nothing wrong puts families into serious poverty.

The scrapping of the 10p tax rate meant that people on minimum wage started to pay twice as much tax overnight. But hey, it all went into the coffers so that Gordon could piss it away propping up his mates in the city of London.

The list goes on...

Basically those at the top of Labour are worse than Tories. With Tories, you get what you expect. Those at the top of Labour have no morals, no compassion. The last senior Labour figure I respected was Robin Cook. When he went, idealism died at the top of Labour. What you saw then was a descent into obscenity while the cynical, manipulative vultures we have in government took us for as much as they could stuff into their grubby little hands.

Labour deserves a period in the wilderness. It needs to restructure and return with someone with compassion and vision leading it out of the darkness. Someone believable. Not the faux social democracy we see fron "call me Dave" Cameron.

I do think the era of the professional politician has to end. In order to have more socially aware and representative government we need more socially representative candidates. And they need to be in positions where they can be heard and be seen to make a difference.

How for instance does someone that has been a politician all their life know what its like to exist on jobseekers, or whether the Jobcentre Plus system actually works?

How would anyone that hasn't claimed for any benefits know the reason benefit take up is poor is because every benefit requires you fill out a sixty page booklet full of questions?

How would anyone that has always been able to afford private care for a disabled family member understand the paucity of care provision, with huge gaps that people regularly fall through?

The current crisis at No10 asks far more questions of the Labour party and government in general than can be answered in the next 12 months.

The traditional Labour Party always embodied two basic things to me. The first thing is its idea of producing social justice, which I think unreservedly is a good thing; defining what social justice actually entails, of course will remain forever a debating point. Helping the poor, supporting those without work, providing universal health care, are all good things, but in practice lead to all sorts of practical difficulties, not least of which is man's basic tendency to abuse systems for personal gain.

The other thing that seems inherent in the Party is the idea that social change must be brought about whether people want it or not - "it's for their own good, after all, so why don't they appreciate it?" This is the basic authoritarian standpoint, and each generation produces a new crop of young Turks who think they have 'the answer', despite the many generations before them who were mistaken in that belief.

What is wrong with the today's New Labour is that they have kept the authoritarianism without really bringing about any positive social change. By any sensible measure our nation is much more divided economically and socially than it was twenty years ago, and ever more draconian measures are being put in place 'for our own good'. Terrorism, ID cards, Regulation of Investigatory Powers etc. - it's all part of a pattern. But adding yet more sets of rules through legislation can never of itself fix a society's ills. It's no laughing matter that people have been characterising this government as 'it's either banned or compulsory'.

The reason Labour will lose the coming election is simply that the electorate have belatedly seen through the smoke and mirrors since 1997. The great Blair populist experiment has failed, and we are seeing the spectacular implosion.

Labour - get back to your basics. Offer people properly thought-out social and economic policy, but don't force them to have it. You've only got to look at Purnell's latest wheeze to take alcoholic's benefits away from them to see how bad things have got.

I *used* to be a staunch Labour supporter, and I say to those who still are but can't see the wood for the trees: you should sometimes realise that you are totally in the wrong, and just admit it. Planning smear campaigns like McBride and Draper did is just wrong. You can fool some of the people for some of the time, but eventually everyone will turn against you. That is what is happening right now.

I feel for you Emma that you are still trying to change this party. I voted Labour in 1997 but when they reneged upon the promise to reform voting I stopped voting for them. I have faced a struggle in recent months with the advance of the hideous Eton mess that is the Tory party and wondered if I should vote NuLab but the one person who will stop me doing so is James Purnell.
How any party that supports his evil (and I do not use that term lightly) demonizing of the most vulnerable in society can hold its head up never mind claim to be 'left' wing is beyond me.

Whilst seeing the Tories get in will dismay me it will give me great happiness to see this bunch of right wing idiots who have run a once great party into the ground get what they deserve. Total anhilation and humiliation at the ballot box.

I will be voting Lib Dem and I will only return to Labour if they ever show credentials that are slightly to the left of a ranting Daily Mail editorial.

This party have betrayed their own and that is the worst political crime ever committed in this country. They are a disgrace.

Oh dear Gawd: 'attack the Tory war machine'.

Just which revolution is this poster living in? Or which part of the deck of the Ptomenkin?

Here's a wake-up call, Mr Unextended Socialist. People out there aren't interested in wars, or machines, or whatever the hell the American political system achieved past or present.

They're interested in people who will LISTEN to their concerns and who are COMPETENT enough to manage things in a way that addresses those concerns.

Although this may come as a surprise to you, it's that which is the most "sophisticated" of all -- and which the Left, in all its madness, never got a grip on all those years ago and which New Labour, in all its staggering incompetence, has likewise never managed to grasp.

Tory war machine indeed.

The biggest war machine out there -- lest you hadn't noticed it? -- is the one that's leaving its wheel tracks all over the very people who once had so much hope for a Labour movement that actually stood for something.

Emma this is a fantastic article, and a sentiment that (as someone who recently stopped working for the Labour party in disgust) I have been waiting to hear from supporters on the ground.

You will probably attract some trolls. Ignore 'em.

You're not ashamed? You should be, love.

Yes, Charlie he is a growing lad and needs his £400 of food each month - those food parcels to the private schools in France and Guildford WERE very meagre you know! (Caviar is not very filling) He once took his shirt off on the beach and all the holidaymakers thought he was shooting an advert for Oxfam :)

Is that James 'Feed Me!' Purnell?

Easter has passed now, but I sincerely hope that you get your strong leadership, but I don't see it this side of an election.

So what will you do until then?

...and an edit because I just saw on Guido's blog it would appear that libel lawyers have been engaged

I agree Emma: To try to deflect attention today that great "Labour" figure James Purnell has announced further "crackdowns" in his Welfare Reform Bill, this time against alcoholism (whixch is a serious illness), and three other figures from the extreme right of the party Frank Field, Alan Milburn and Steophen Byers (the latter two always seem to work as a double act) have attempted to keep the email saga going by expressing anger and disgust and low standards, which is a bit of a laugh when you consider Byers resigned from the cabinet after attending a conference,picking up a woman there, taking her up to his hotel room to "see his etchings" leaving the lady for a few minutes only to reappear in just his socks and glasses, and as for Field, he has been sniping and spitting posion for the past eleven years since he got the sack. I have no doubt that the Daily Mail will forget all about that little episode (which they themselves used as an exclusive on the front page of the Mail On Sunday) when they commend this gruesome trio for their "integrity" in tomorrows edition.

The REAL problem with labour is that since it became "New Labour" has promoted near Tories to high positions.

Tweetspeak: @alexsmith1982 fantastic visual and fantastic post by emma burnell, labourlist's latest starlet please RT http://tinyurl.com/cwzrl7

Well done Emma. This is the first article I've seen on LL that has made me say to myself "YES!"

Unfortunately, I don't see anything changing before the next Gen. Election. And the party will be the worse for it.

have to agree toatlly. as a councillor knocking doors, i hear and see the effects of poverty and inequality in my ward, which is a super output area. now my governement has been duped by the Tories at county council level into closing the secondary school because of surplus places. it really grates that this westiminster bubble is not listening to the grass roots and the millions of people who require our help and understanding. no wonder our biggest threat in local elections is the BNP. MPs wont lose their seats to the BNP, but hardworking councillors do. we had control of our borough for 34 years, and lost it to the Tories when people go so brassed off with the national party over the 10p tax we lost two wards to the BNP and others to the Tories. and we have set two rate rises of 0%. the party do so many great things, but do not listen to the people on the streets...

Yay TORIEZ!!1! Much better than ideas or hope.

I'm a socialist without the need for expansion. I'm not anti-democracy but the nature of the times, the context, determines how much the democratic process follows the peoples interests. Hitler was elected and this can happen again if ideals take precedent over cold reality. At this time democracy is supportable but lets avoid naivety? What we need is a campaign of attack on the Tory war machine. One that is both sophisticated and straighforward. Rather than using the US model of today as example it might be better to investigate how earlier media campaigns in the US were driven? At no point should we let go once we've got the Tories wrongfooted, preparation for the day begins today!

"Labour the party of social justice."

With respect I do not see this
as a source of distinction.
any more.

I see Labour as a party of social mobility. and (by implication? or it being a mechanism for?) providing more support for the poorest in society.

When you say 'nuptials' do you mean 'numpties'?

I wish I could agree but when the PLP has so little to do (i.e. absolutely nothing) with the LP what's the point?