By Alex Smith / @alexsmith1982
Last night, I attended an event to discuss who is winning: the commentariat or the bloggertariat?
Aside from this being an oft-combed topic, the debate was most noteworthy for a spat between Iain Dale and David Aaronovitch of the Times. Dale was deliberately provocative in criticising Aaronovitch's employers for exposing the identity of NightJack, the blogger who wrote about life working in the police force. But he made a serious point: sometimes the protection offered by anonymity is required to gain deeper insight.
Aaronovitch, on the other hand, was so deeply consumed by his own self-importance as to barely acknowledge the role that citizen journalism now plays. Yes, maybe it's unfair that he is abused regularly by Guido Fawkes' readers (and the former editor of this forum will surely know about that!) but his profanities and the dogmatic reverence in which he evidently holds the established media were abrasive, antagonistic and disrespectful of those in the audience looking for genuine understanding.
Personally, I don't think it matters who is winning. Journalism and comment have always been reciprocal, but the lines of what is considered mainstream and what is fringe have been increasingly blurred by bloggers such as Sunny Hundal and Tim Montgomerie writing for the national newspapers and by the mainstream media moving increasingly online as their circulations fall and their influence becomes more evenly distributed. On the day that prominent journalists warned of the "sustained crisis in our craft", that couldn't have been more relevant.
Open source journalism has made a significant contribution to the political debate in this country, and for established commentators to ignore that is to deny that they themselves surf the blogs as if their salaries and their opinions depended on it.
Which, of course, they do.
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so the Labour Party's "repatriation" policy is the same as BNP. How enlightening. Would anyone else care to comment on this/add to it.
Thanks.
I have made contact with the Press Complaints Council. and their remit does not include regulating the blogs.
"order-order" is repeatedly tripping up now.not long to go ...
Wondering about legal BNP support among whites is hardly the same as wondering about illegal activity in the black community. Haven't the BNP just won two Euro seats? I wonder about this too.
There's also no moral equivalence given the balance of power between majorities and minorities. Every community can be latently racist, but its usually when one side has the preponderance of power that racist oppression happens.
I dont happen to remember a long history of black people oppressing whites in British history (recent history too if you just go back the Stephen Lawrence). Of course you could be paranoid to add 'black on white' crime as some kind of balancing factor. But since most crimes in the black community are committed within it you'd be hard pressed.
No. Gang membership (which happens in many communities) and long though thankfully marginal history of anti black feeling in this country are not the same thing.
"I have found myself glaring at every other white person I see on the street, thinking did you vote BNP?"
and
"I have found myself glaring at every other black person I see on the street, thinking are you a gang member?"
And I think you'll have your answer.
att, with great respect labels switch me off. and I am drawn to making simplicity out of complexity.
Precision says to me that the underlying issue is prejudice. and the question is what level of prejudice is acceptable to society and against whom.
evrything else is noise.
I am saying that anything that jeopardises our social cohesion is unacceptable. The BNP do not so long as those of commonwealth origin settled in the UK are not distinguised from a policy viewpoint.
In the absence of a written constitution our flag needs to be tweaked. A written constitution whic states that those of commonwealth ancestory are part of a national identity....so that and that only will kill the inflammatory aspects of the BNP.
Nothing less will work. if society wants to move on.
Wow. And I thought you were some nice middle class management consultant with two young daughters. Youve more issues than the Evening Standard, guv, and I'm amazed that comments like that got through. How is Laurie Penny racist? By saying there are bigots in the UK?
That is not racism but demonstrable truth.
As for this
"If I were to post anti-black anti-female rants I'd be likely to be arrested"
Well, you got half of your rant out. Looks like you want to go the whole hog. If you also added a history lesson about the oppression of white men by police stop and search, sus laws, active segregation, discrimination, and a couple of hundred years of slavery Id like to see how you square it up.
Theres nothing funnier than someone like you screaming hysterically how you're the victim of oppression
History is clearly not your strong point
But please dont let me stop these rants. They're very psychologically revealing. Anything else you'd care to add?
What you seem to be talking about is patriotism. Id agree that does not have to encompass dislike of other cultures
But nationalism of the German Spanish Italian Hungarian Lithuanian Turkish and even Irish kind has always dallied with fascism
But more importantly Griffin like the NF and Combat 18 used to be in favour of involuntary repatriation. I wouldnt trust him on either count. And anyone who looks at the BNP constitution knows its is racist at its heart
Isn't there some line about the difference between nationalism and patriotism? You can be proud of your country without being dismissive of others, i.e. patriotic. Nationalism tends always to lead to some Other you resent or dislike. So Republican Irish dislike of the Brits in the last century wasnt racist. In fact many Anglo Irish protestants were fiery Irish nationalists. So lets not mix up nationalism and racism. But lets not be afraid to call something xenophobic when we see it
Except for the scalp of Dolly and McBride you'll still find harder better stories in the dead tree press or Private Eye. It wont always be this way and we'll all think that Guido and Dale were pioneers of the right wing opposition to New Labour. But Aaronovitch is right that in five years time they will be history and the blogosphere changed beyond all recognition
Until that day I will enjoy trolling the trollers
Bring em on
what I think I am saying is that prejudice is the dark side of social cohesion.....and hence essential. However, as we change our identity , we change our prejudices (it range and depth).
The issue is not our prejudices, it is our identity. I think.
It not possible to outsmart the BNP. They are on to something when they say that white male (a particular segment?) feels like a 2nd class citizen in his own country. Unsure what they propose to do about it - positive discrimination? how?
all very puzzling. I think these folks want attention, and attention they must get....they like any one else have a right to it.
a side of BNP is associated with repatriation. This idea has to nipped in the bud. I cannot see any alternative apart from my proposal.
and that has to mean a change to our flag - a symbol of our national identity. a root and branch reform - if there ever was one!
The idea being to add the commonwealth to the union of 4 nations on the union jack. A recognition that the commonwealth is as important to this nation's identity (which it is) as England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.
Taking this thought further it means that the issue of repatriation i.e uprooting people goes away. You cannot uproot something if it's is part of you. can you?
We have not yet had a big blogging scandal. We need one. We need a blogger to make a damaging, and untrue allegation that leads to the courts slapping the publishers (people like TypePad, BlogSpot etc). Such a case will bring some responsibility into the publishers of blogs. And it will make bloggers think more like journalists rather than rumour-mongers
Before you shout "free speech" think about the effect that an untrue rumour made against you could have. Journalists are usually careful about saying anything unsubstantiated (yes there are exceptions) because they could cost their employers a lot of money, and they could lose their jobs and reputation. What about bloggers, what makes them think twice about publishing something that is just a rumour?
It would be great if Radio 7 could repeat this programme if only to embarrass him: a nasty, self-serving piece of work, I suspect he might jump ship to the Tory side if the General Election goes as it looks like presently doing.
In less than one year the Labour Party is going to be annihilated at the polls. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it, except of the course, the Prime Minister who just pretends he doesn't know it.
Parliament's descent into self-serving hypocrisy has created a vast political vacuum, a vacuum which extremists are already starting to fill.
Nearly one million people voted for fascists at the EU elections. Two fascists were elected as MEP's. There is a real possibility that fascist MP's will soon be elected to the House of Commons too. It may happen in a by-election or at a general election, but the day is certainly near.
This has happened on Labour's watch. It has happened because the Labour party has become completely disengaged from the electorate. There are NO EXCUSES.
I urge the Labour party to consider what it can do to prevent fascists from gaining a foothold in this country.
The Labour party can only argue the case against fascism from a position of higher moral authority. That higher moral authority will only start to return once Labour has elected a new leader.
The time for party politics is over. It is now time to put the country first.
That's why people having an instinctive aversion to the Other is not necessarily the same as racism. Religious intolerance and nationalism deserve to be described as such.
It strikes me that the BNP may have been quite smart in laying a lot of stress on culture - NF supporters used to be inclined to talk about directly about biological and genetic traits.
Agree with you re the commonwealth Ash - I always thought this was quite a useful term and idea for moving on from colonialism, though that seems an unfashionable idea post EU.
see my comment below (@5.00pm)
You be proud of your identity without detriment to another. That is what segregates fascism from Nationalism. When I served in the armed forces there were many occasions when I was proud of my country but I never considered it in comparison with any other country.
pride in one's nation is essential for national identity.
In other words some level of racism is essential for national wellbeing....any nation's wellbeing (suppose the exception would be the "immoral" "corrupt" swiss)
is life more complicated than meets the eye.
"all nationalism is a form of racism"
I agree.
I agree that we need a common enemy in order to create a group, tribal or a national identity.
Is the enemy real or fictious, who knows....but as it is a potential threat to one's identity .... it matters.
so we have a prejudice.....based on identity.
How is it different to racism?
is that also not prejudice based on identity? and hence when the BNP says that they want to represent the indigenous people of this country.....I for one am happy with that so long as we all classify those of commonwealth ancestory who are either born or settled in this country - as indigenous.
what says you.
Ever since I have detested all nationalists of any stripe.
All nationalism is a form of racism as far as someone like me is concerned.
Cosmopolitanism is much more civilized.
They used to have their anti-Americanism, but Obama robbed them of their last core belief.
I don't think it's racist, just part of the necessary fiction needed to create a sense of nation. Some people take it too far and end up with an unfounded hatred of 'the other' but this could just as easily be Scouse v Manc as English v Scottish.
She knows exactly what she is posting and has done it time and time again.
She is anti-white, anti-male, anti-middle class.
If I were to post anti-black anti-female rants I'd be likely to be arrested, it's a pity the same standards aren't held in reverse.
Furthermore, is the French dislike of the English (and vice versa) racist?
where do we draw the line.
thanks Simon - I enjoyed the video clip and yes I am aware of the background to the resentment. My question though still is, is the Scots dislike of the English racist?
"At home in London, I have found myself glaring at every other white person I see on the street, thinking did you vote BNP?"
That's basically taking the view that anyone in the white population of London could be a closet racist.
She rounds up by saying:
"New York remembers what London has forgotten: that we are all immigrants, even white Britons ...."
and
"It's racists and recalcitrants in power who are the real scum muddying up the waters of change and vitality roaring around our islands, keeping the poor poor and the rich ignorant"
Ms Penny was absolutely clear in her views (which she has outlined in other posts), white Britons are likely to be racist, we have forgotten the "benefits" of immigration and we are basically to blame for all the ills of the world.
Maybe it's me but I'd like to put her on a boat on the Thames and head for traitor's gate.
"the dogmatic reverence in which he evidently holds the established media"
Steve Richards of the Independent is of the view that Guido Fawkes is now the 5th most important person in UK media. This is based on how many times he can command mention on the Today programme. I wonder how much mention can David A command.
Having said that Guido is a campaigner. a commentator. a "business" person. and a "journalist" of dubious repute. He is no Andrew Neil.
the scots hatred/resentment of the english. is that racist?
I am confused.
It was interesting to see the reporting of the 'Cameron / urinal / Bercow doesn't count' anecdote start yesterday with Tom Harris at 6:30pm then Michael Crick at 10:30pm and finally Rachel Sylvester this morning.
Excellent....
Maybe our partnership with them will help LL become a similar outpost?
Guido & Dale v Heffer & Phillips
On a serious note, anyone there come up with any bright ideas on media funding in the future?
I was a natural core Labour supporter. I even stuffed envelopes and paid my dues for crying out loud! But I truly detest what the Labour party now stands for now, or should I say what it now doesn't stand for now?
The complete lack of integrity or principles shown by almost every current Labour MP is quite sickening. The election of John Bercow as speaker yesterday shows that they have learned nothing from the expenses scandal. They have willfully and maliciously ignored the wishes of the public.
Having said all that, I have seen Alex Smith a couple of times recently, and I have to say I have been quite impressed. He seems to be allowed to say what he likes? An extraordinary lack of control by Labour bullies it seems. Dhanda played a blinder yesterday too. Perhaps there really is a ray hope for the future?
So good on you Alex. Keep telling it like it is. I look forward to watching your principles crumble into dust when you enter the house for the first time as happened to the 418 Labour MP's in 1997, but then maybe I have just grown tired and cynical of all the bull over the last decade. I broke out the bubbly in May 1997, but I can't see me doing again that whoever wins in future.