What's wrong with LabourList?

WHat's wrong with labourlist - from the start it's all wrong because it was setup and run by Derek Draper - it's as simplae as that.

As for asking sheeple to stop throwing toys out of the pram - you want opinions, you ask questions - you get answers - simple as that.

By the way - I used to support labour - this site is the biggest mistake, ill conceived, poorly set out, little interaction, poor algorithms, bad page design - I could go on...but CH doesn't seem to like anyone expressing views he doesn't hold...another typical example of why this place is just so wrong...

Derek Draper.

A big thank you to everyone who contributed to this debate constructively - it's certainly given some food for thought, and pointed to a whole load of bugs in the system that I hadn't even touched on.

Incedentally, I interviewed Iain Dale today and he made many of the same points I did - there's too little humour, too much repitition and not enough user-generated content and linking. We might not agree with Dale's politics, but there's no doubting his expertise in this area. The full interview will be up on www.thesocialmediaforum.org very soon.

I'll also do a follow up to this when I've got a minute, and incorporate your comments into it.

And to all those who saw this post as an excuse to stick the knife into Derek Draper, time to stop throwing your toys out of the pram.

WTF? You've got people posting here who are experts, not some politician's circle jerk with Ian Dale. And a lot of the nonsense around here is down to weak and arbitrary moderation. That's Labour Lists problems.

Debate? What sort of word is that? Where's the discussion, huh? Honestly, you people don't have a clue. Where's the delivery? Where's the social interaction? Where's the benefit? Zip. Zip. Zip.

I can see why some people hate Labour at the moment. I've worked for and been a customer of some seriously bad companies. There's a whiff of corporate memo and too scared to meet the customers about this place. Get over yourself.

"You've got people posting here who are experts, not some politician's circle jerk with Ian Dale."

So the guy who runs one of the highewt traffic political blogs in the country isn't worth listening to?

"A lot of the nonsense around here is down to weak and arbitrary moderation. That's Labour Lists problems."

So what, we moderate out the comments we disagree with and are accused of censorship and spin?

"Debate? What sort of word is that? Where's the discussion, huh? Honestly, you people don't have a clue. Where's the delivery? Where's the social interaction?"

Not entirely sure what you're on about. Would you care to expand on that?

1. Ian Dale is a face with a chequebook. Calling him an expert on the internet is like calling a lottery winner an engineer because they bought a Ferarri. The guy has just bought in services or hired people like me who create the stuff you use, or who coin the industry terms and write the books you lot crib from.

2. I've written some fairly substantive comments on moderation. For a start, you guys don't understand the difference between censorship and moderation. You ignore informed comment like mine but react like a cat on a hot tin roof to the small but vocal minority who are pulling your chain.

3. British political blogging is just the same tired faces circle jerking each other - the Westminster bubble transplanted to the internet. Labour are weak on leadership and communication in both places, and the payoff for the voter almost nonexistent. I'm not interested in your "authority" or "popularity", "debates" or "page hits". I just want a good quality conversation.

I'm a game developer and been around the internet longer than you lot. I've taken leading policy positions you're only just catching up and got my ass flamed by thrill seekers before Labour List existed as an idea. Similarly, when people like me were capping each others asses at 60 FPS you lot were basking around the CRT glow of the Channel 4 special on "Virtual Reality".

I've had political parties pinch slogans and ask questions in PMQ's, and had my first invention published in the Sunday Times Innovation Section before I left full time education and coined industry terms like "graphics fidelity". Now, would you rather talk to me and the people who've made better quality contributions, or someone like Ian Dale and the Troll Army?

I'm not boasting or trying to show anyone up but make a point that everyone has ideas and wants to be liked. At the moment the voter is seeing Labour and Labour List collapsing and shrinking into itself. They don't feel they're being listened to or cared for. There's no payoff for them. You have to stop arguing and chasing after trouble, and start taking an interest and being sociable.

Then I think I should start off by saying thanks for your comments!

People could certainly try acknowledging other peoples constructive contributions and being nicer to each other. That's more likely to get people to open up and enjoy each others company. Action follows focus, so if Labour List take an interest and are sociable that's the area that will develop. The trolls always diss stuff and wind people up. It's an easy way of getting attention but crowds everything else out. That's why setting a better lead and moderating the trolling away is useful.

Just take someone mentioning Wordpress. On most American sites someone would look it up, or talk about their experience of using it, or give it a spin for 10 minutes to check it out. Then they'd talk about it, people would learn more, and people would come out the other side better than they came in. Britian? Jesus, take a spin through the crap in here and 90% of it is opp-topic whining from people who are just trying to ram their ego down your neck like some hyperactive 5 year old kid.

I get fed up trying to explain this stuff. Before you have a chance to get anywhere with a topic or feel good about anything the infantile British online ego barges in and rips everything down before you get started. People can't succeed on their own so they rip you down. No suprise, Labour List is using a backwards system and letting the Tory trolls take the place over. You've got the same disease.

I'll believe Labour List gets a better platform and shows the trolls the door when I see it. You know what you have to do and I can't do it for you. I don't make the site decisions or have moderation powers, and I sure as heck am not being paid for it. Still, it's your gig and people have to learn in their own way. Maybe I've been spoilt or would do things differently but that's me. What I will say is that taking a great leap forward isn't such a big thing when you've done it and you might be surprised at the result. At least, that's what I've found.

"So the guy who runs one of the highewt traffic political blogs in the country isn't worth listening to?"

It would seem not. And of the high traffic blogs, apart from LibCon, he's the most sensible!

1. I believe Charles refers to the more technical side of things, as a custom built platform LL is pretty poor cnsidering what could have been achieved. As Dale's blog is run on blogspot, he's probably not an expert in this regard, I may be wrong.

2. Moderation seems fine to me, just a little slooooooowwwww.

3. An ambitious site like this, making big claims, needs to provide a better platform for posters to interact, the amount of time it takes for posts to appear severly inhibits this. Charles is probably thinking about gamers forums, if you're looking to build a community based around interaction they provide a great target to aim for.

"as a custom built platform LL is pretty poor cnsidering what could have been achieved"

I'm not an expert - just a guy who casually uses a fair number of debate forums and message boards. This is undoubtedly the worst-designed and most frustrating to use! The way the threading works, the need for endless scrolling, the lack of any clear way of tracking topics or even easily check for new posts are major disincentives to any thread going on for more than a day or so, and positively inhibit sensible discussions arising. That's before we get on to anything interesting ...

As a blog, it's OK. As a place for people to interact or come together, it's a disaster.

I agree that the platform is...err...not quite up to standard and that there are too many bugs.

Well, I'm afraid that part of the nature of this is that we have lots of people deliberately off topic, and lots of people posting libels. Politics, eh...

Yup, attracts a right bunch of tools.

I like LabourList, and try to add a little bit of the humour that people say is missing. Note the word "try".

Charles is much funnier than me though, it's not easy to compete with what he writes, but I tries me hardest.

Dolly Draper
That MP with the dogey stats
That piss poor atempt at slaging of the Hannan video
And the silly girl who claimes a part of the country suffered 50% unemployment in the last recession.

Its slow as well, time your post is up, your in bed having a horlicks.

say good night children

All,

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. We are working out a way to incorporate as many of them as possible.

This will eventually include improved interface navigation; bringing several new media together for a more cohesive and interactive overall experience; a more narrative-based aspect to blogposts, with coherent, issues based threads; tagged posts for easy access to specific and single issues; more emphasis on posters returning to engage with comments; more dynamic and diverse content.

LabourList will always be a work in progress, so we are open to and appreciative of suggestions. The site is only about as old as the Obama presidency, and although it is improving, there's a lot more to do.

Thanks again.

Alex

Ummm ... so, let me get this right
You're going to make the site usable and easy to get around - good, but why has it taken so long?
you've going to tart it up with lots of videos - well, fair enough, but please don't plaster them in inappropriate places
you don't have a clue about "inclusiveness": there's a grim determination to continue using language that most people really struggle with - so no change there, then.

Not being funny here, but can you ask the consultant who told you to use all those nice, cosy web 2.0 type words above, why the hell he didn't do it in the first place.

You launch something with national media attention and nobody thought about how it would work? I know I'm just a carer but do you really want me to wipe your arses as well? Derek, you can answer this one.

Labour List is heading into the sort of territory where I've wondered if if I should be doing the design, moderation, editing, and writing myself but I can't can't do all that and I sure as hell wouldn't do it without being paid.

When I watch a bad movie I tend to float off like this, and start analysing the direction, script, and acting. Sure, you can understand it with some backstreet production but not with anything that wants to be taken seriously.

It just looks like they're sticking with Taobase and pissing on people in favour of their big media pals like Ian Dale. I've run into dumb before but this is just so *duh* I can't believe it. Way to alienate the public, eh?

I bet you stick with Taobase and the Tory trolls are still running riot in here in another 3 months. You've had long enough to kick up a gear and the corporatese comment isn't what I'd call inspiring. It's a mirror of a collapsing government being run over by an opposition with a free pass. Wake up.

Charles, I know you think you are a right-on leftie doing your duty for the socialist cause, but you are doing the "Tory troll's" job for them.

Every post you make is another small nail in Labour's coffin.

Keep up the good work, keep taking the medicine, and stay away from high-caffeine drinks.

Have to say I don't agree with your worries about the lack of any embedded pizazz in posts here. Looking over some of the more established or stronger left reads - Hopi Sen, Dave Osler, Liberal Conspiracy, Harry's Place, Luke Akehurst and many more, you find well written content that isn't fretting not to be dressed up for the sake of it. Keeping it simple allows for easy argument and easy conversation - get over-concerned about dressing it up and you slow yourself down and look like you're marketing to people. For my money, LL could entirely lose the images that currently scatter the posts. They don't add anything, and for those of us who follow just by RSS or mobile, they're overlooked anyway.

Videos are good tho, as you say, as they allow a different type of contribution and contributor.

I reckon the focus should be on sticking to the site's USP - frank discussion from influential people, and on the quality of content. Losing a few posts to make for a clearer editorial mightn't be so bad. Maybe the RSS feed wouldn't beep so often, but when it did, you'd know for sure there was something worth reading there.

In keeping with that, now would be a good time for a spring clean. Slim down the pages and improve the navigation - LL's done lots on this already to hone the design since launch, but as the site scales, the opportunities change and there's more to do. Maybe lose most of the left side contributor pics - 10 or so latest ones would do (with maybe a few more high profile ones kept on for a bit). Start tagging/categorising the posts, so people can explore related themes as LL gets an impressive backlog of content.

ok, here's my tuppence worth:

Firstly, There are too many articles in total. Obviously it's good to get your message out about everything that is going on, but some prioritisation of issues. eg pieces on the Post Office or MP's expenses, hot topics, quickly get buried by articles of more dubious appeal eg Mr Cowan's 'It's 48 hours for a reason' was just plain silly. It cannot be easy doing the editorial work associated with all this, so perhaps a more discriminating approach to pieces should be taken. It should raise the 'quality' and hopefully cut down on time spent on articles that do not interest many people.

Secondly, there are often several articles covering the same subject. Obviously, sometimes that is justified if a different angle is taken, but too often it is not eg G20 has six or so.

Thirdly, there is often a lack of honesty in the pieces, in that they are written by, and for, people who will vote Labour come hell or highwater. Of course, this is a site for Labour-minded people but even some of them must gnash teeth at the self-congratulatory tone, or incessant Tory-bashing that goes on. A more moderated tone will pay dividends. eg that council-tax band statistical piece by John Healy was simply risible.

Fourthly, many of the contributers are never seen again, which is understandable in some respects(eg ministers) but odd for others. Clearly I wouldn't expect everyone to answer everything, but most do not reply at all. Others (eg Will Straw) to their credit do come back. There was an expectation that contributers would in general reply, and maybe that has changed- some clarification needed perhaps.

That's about it, really. I am a 'floating' voter, so attach as much or as little weight to my comments as you see fit. I should say that I would of course not expect it to be perfect so early in its existance. I hope this is seen as a fair criticism, although you will note that many of my comments are less than supportive of the Government/Labour position.

As well as being a beacon of impartiality and frank discussion in these troubled times LL also affords me the privilege of reading Charles Hardwidge's illuminating writings.

10/10

Google Charles - you can enjoy his writing on many subjects..........

Yeah, you can find my credit on the OpenGL FAQ, Microsoft's newsgroups discussing Platform SDK compatibility, and discussing the Diamond Sutra.

Real sexy. Bodice ripping stuff.

I work in IT too though don't feel it necessary to parade my cv here.

I think that Charles has succintly shown the weaknesses of this site in one simple post.

I don't know. I think it's got the balance almost right. A mixture of heavyweight stuff, debate and disagreement, and banter and the more 'bloggy' stuff like youtube videos.

It's obviously a more grown up and serious blog than some juvenile pit of spleen and self-regard like Guido Fawkes. But it's clearly a very popular blog with left and right alike, as the sheer number of Tories coming here shows.

I'm having a laugh. You guys actually get PAID to produce this dross. Serious bloggers do it for free. Which is why you'll never be "serious"

Amateurs

I've noticed how many of the people who knock down or ignore my comments go on to repurpose or cherry pick quotes. It suggests they're less interested in developing content for everyone's benefit and just hijacking it for their own competitive wants. This does rather miss the point of conversation.

Tories don't want conversation they want debate. Tories don't want to bake the cake but eat the cake. Tories don't want a recovery they want a recession. They can't look beyond their MBA's and marketing to the essence of life. They just want to control and brutalise like a spoilt child to big for its age.

It's funny that the shiny attractive things are driven by an underlying rigid and negative psychology while the authoritarian and insular is driven by an open and gentle psychology. British politics is hung up on this procrastination like someone in a mid-life crisis. You can fight but the only real solution is letting go.

People often become obsessed with their emeies and by fighting copy and mirror all their habits until they're indistinguisable. This paradox is why revolutions or new management often results in no meaningful change. People also attack their enemies at their own perceived weakest point. Here, one can conclude that Labour List is doing a better job, it's fine to get paid, and they will succeed.

So Charles, you're saying that Labour Party members shouldn't study for MBAs? Can I have my course fees back?

Calm down. Don't take it personally Charles!

Then don't talk crap or make comments people might take personally.

Pots. Kettles. Stones. Glass houses.

It doesn't matter how you dress it up but you're still trolling.

Trolls are incredibly dim and persistent. Once they get through the door they walk around eating everything up while skirting the rules and playing people off against each other. It's effective but only as long as people keep feeding them with attention or they don't get their ass banned.

If I was moderating you'd be gone by now.

Charles, I find the tenets of Taoism useful when I post comments, I suggest you have a look at them.

In particular, the Three Jewels of the Tao provide me with inspiration: they are compassion, moderation, and humility.

Paid?

I wish mate.

There needs to be some change to the open forum. I am all for alternative views, even Tory ones, and an open discussion, but some of the trolling on here is rediculous. Some of the planks, who I assume are either on the Tory payroll or have ran out of toys to play with, that post dross on here is unbelievable.

I assume this post will be followed by some immature remarks from said posters.

At least the "Bullingdons" won't waste trillions of our taxpayers' money on failed investment. And then try and claim credit for that waste as investment.

The NHS is worse than it was 12 years ago, and yet has had absolute fortunes thrown at it.

That tells you all you need to know about Labour: tax, waste, borrow, ad nauseam.

"Some of the planks, who I assume are either on the Tory payroll or have ran out of toys to play with, that post dross on here is unbelievable."

Not sure if this is immature, but surely you are describing yourself here?

I am starting to think that this "Bullingdons" is either on LabList payroll (I really hope not) or some immature "plank" who cannot see the irony in what he posts. Yes, he (or she) is all for alternative views but it appears only if they are not prepared to state them.

Let's name names. Who are the rediculous planks?

I wonder how this comment stands [KtBO] up to open scrutiny. It is clearly the case that several posters are not wholly supportive of Labour, but that doesn't make them trolls, on the Tory payroll or the mischievous idle. I wonder, in all seriousness, if this platform isn't a new experience to many of the posters, who might be accustomed to receiving approval from their peers as long as what they say approximates to the party line. After all, you're all going in the same direction, want the same thing and don't need to nitpick over the detail. So you post, for example, about whether Osborne will limit his pay at whilst there is outrage abroad over MP's [cross party] troughing habits, with Smith, McNulty, Hoon and Darling in the vanguard. Talk about leading with your chin and just not getting it.
You are adrift, like Polly Toynbee [Guardian] in her 31st March homily on the Jacqui Smith being a victim; 1132 comments overwhelmingly negative to her viewpoint. Tory trolls swamping the Guardian now, or a sea change you haven't seen?
Link

Specific examples of Tory trolling? I am no Tory, but some of the Tory contributions have been undeniably strong.

Or is it you'd rather delete comments you personally don't like. How very New Labour.

So what your saying is, that once real people start to come to sites and express their grievances, nobody listens to poor Charles waffling on about Zen anymore and he gets upset.

Oh dear

The answer is in your answer:

"Most blogs that have had continued success give the reader a little more than big blocks of text – there’s all sorts of content to get your teeth into."

There is a shortage of charisma and humour but plenty of bores, windbags and the politics of envy.

As a disillusioned Labour supporter I would love to see a great socialist blog, but so far Messrs Fawkes, Dale, Blaney et al run rings around you. The only exception I can think of are John Prescotts postings which are sometimes entertaining. I emphasize sometimes.

Couldn't agree more. There needs to be less spleen venting and more thinking about whether what you're doing is worthy of an audience.

It's run by a self-obsessed, spinning lunatic, that's what's wrong with it.

I haven't looked at many Tory sites but I've seen them take down anyone who says anything like that, and I've had equivalent comments that I've made about Cameron taken down in five minutes. The Tory's surgically remove any criticism of themselves on their own sites and high traffic sites that might influence opinion.

I've weighed the Tory campaign approach in the big media and online and they're both following a similar pattern. It doesn't matter if a Labour policy is great or people try to be sociable - the Tories just bang heads and mob anyone not on their team. This isn't truth or developing shared capital. They want the whole cake and don't care who gets screwed in the process. This is psychopathic.

Labour can lack polish and have been driven into their shell but confidence and social ease can help reverse the trend. You don't have to aim for perfection or kiss every ass, just accept yourself. This helps melt the Tory illusion they want to pain in Labour's mind and the self-delusions that people inflict on themselves. By just accepting yourself and saying "It's fine to be me", the rest follows.

"The Tory's surgically remove any criticism of themselves on their own sites and high traffic sites that might influence opinion."

Where? Was this genuine criticism or trolling? Can you back up generalizations like these with specific examples?

My comment is fine but I don't make a list of this stuff or carry anyone else's sack. They're pointers and it's up to other folks to run with them. It's a comment, not an article or a tutorial.

The British mostly run stuff down or indulge in negativity. Americans would be more likely to pile on with examples and explanatory comment. The Tory trolls certainly do but only when it suits them. Just look around.

The British lack of confidence and teamwork is a killer. You have to raise your game and that takes a bit of effort. Quit with the closing comments and finger wagging and haul some ass.

...'My comment is fine but I don't make a list of this stuff...
Well Charles in my opinion and, may I presume, Andrew Webb's, your comment is far from fine. It's not just a comment, it is Charles Hardwidge comment, one that you will not back up either through laziness, indifference, arrogance or most likely because it an incorrect comment. You merely assert its correctness when challenged.

My comment is fine as far as it goes. It's true from what I've observed and the anecdotal evidence I've seen, and I've seen a similar picture on US sites over a few years. The right wing talk up opportunity and freedom of speech but when you take advantage of that in a way they don't like it's takedown time or they're on you like a rash.

As for your opinion, you're not rising to the challenge I set, or looking out for examples of Tory misconduct. You're just putting words in my mouth and getting into namecalling. There's lots of closing comment and negativity in there. That kinda proves the point.

Labour List has a focus problem. I've already commented that my design vision of what Labour needed had a different tilt to what was delivered. I hate to say I know more about this game than you guys or I was right but I could make that claim.

Labour List is trying to be too many things. It's trying to be an official platform, a daily update, and a pop magazine. My suggestion is Labour List turns itself into a daily update site, Go Fourth gets a makeover, and you come up with a new pop magazine.

Your new pop magazine needs a proper editor. That would help the guys writing for it to get a better grip on their writing and bring in some consistency. Derek needs to move on and get focused on being the new Deepak Chopra.

You could knock this all into shape within a month. You've had long enough to learn a few things and the timing is fine. There's no big threats on the horizon, there's a big enough market, and the new magazine could be earning big $$$ within 1-3 years.

My general view is politicians can be very well informed and write well but their articles kill the audience. The look and feel is wrong. You also need more personalised how-to stories so politics turns into a learning experience. A regular editorial and the usual filler found it out.

What was it with the Houses of Parliament champagne thing? That was decadent, tired, and cheap. Plus, it had no regular spot and seems to have disappeared. That kills sponsorship deals dead and makes people tune out. Way to throw excitement and money away.

I've passed on tips to Derek about a designer you people should hire TODAY, moderation, and getting a grip on story, flow, and pacing. I was a bit pissed that nothing was done with them but now you're in a fix you might want to dive down that rabbit hole.

This sounds like the person who has just ruined the New Statesman with an awfully dumbed-down redesign.

Charles for editor.

Now there's a rabbit hole to dive down.

I've been trying to avoid talking myself into that one. Oh, dear. Me being pro Labour and editing a respectable internet site? That would be the mother of all rabit holes. The world has a sense of humour. Oh, no, no, no. Not me. No. Please, no.

Okay, let's kill this one dead before it gets traction.

My first week:

1. Spend 10 grand on a makeover. New servers, back end content manager, and some spiffy templates, graphics furniture, and decent stock photos.
2. Get Peter Mandelson to do a videocast series on dancing.
3. Hire a top photographer to get Jacqui Smith naked and run a story on the essence of politics, art, and life.

Epic fail.

1. No sponsor would greenlight that amount of money.
2. No politician is that interactive.
3. No politican is willing to be that vulnerable.

It's obviously so daring, so dangerous, so off the wall stupid the bozo who hires me is facing meltdown of the entire Labour party, ruined careers, and urban jokes their grandchildern will laugh about in the playground. No, I can quite safely say I'm not going on any short list.

Good, we're all agreed then.

"Epic fail"?

Go back to Warcraft, Charles.

I said from the beginning that it shouldn't get too much like the Guardians CIF but i feel it has. Having an article followed by a torrent of abuse seems to be the formula both on LL and CIF.

I think there have been enough posts saying that Labour haven't done enough and the only people calling for more are those who wish this site to self-destruct. We have a lot of posts criticizing the Tories but the Tories have a lot against us and hardly any on their ideas or there-lack-of!

There is a fine line between a forum board and an article with comments and we need to decide what we want. I feel that having a article followed by abusive comments is unhelpful to important debate.

You are right. There seems to be a big similarity between the Guadian Comment is Free and this site. If only the articles here were as well written as those on the Guadian.

I suppose the main point is that here we are focused on the Labour Party and its policy. It is much more interesting than a forum board.

I think in all seriousness - really - that LabourList would have 1000% more credibility if it were to publicly cut its ties with Derek Draper.

A pro-Labour website with Derek as its public face has little hope of being taken seriously. It seems to exist as a vehicle to publicise his various business interests, and to massage his vanity.

Once a spin doctor, always a spin doctor, and nobody likes a spin doctor. He taints everything he touches. He's too easy to ridicule. He's a liability.

Congratulate Derek for setting LabourList up, on which he has done a very creditable job, then say goodbye.

Hmmmmm...very few posts you haven't commented on throughout the entire site. Any chance of some positivity, or even constructive comment? No.

Might I suggest you get some kind of life?

I suggest you examine your motives in writing that.

If my comments get up your nose, good. If you feel the need to put me down because you feel inadequate, good.

As one of a very few female bloggers, maybe I stand out a little. I make far fewer comments than many of the men, yet you single me out for your sarcasm.

You think I'm being negative in my comment above? No. Derek is the creator, but he is also the problem. In one short interview on national TV he lied twice about LabourList, the man can't help himself. If I wanted to be negative I'd suggest more failed spin doctors get involved, not fewer.

I'm not one to play the 'wimmin' card as you'll know if you've really read my comments, but I do detect a little whiff of misogyny in your attitude.

Take a good look at yourself.

What is wrong? The onslaught of vast swathes empty meaningless drivel.

What is right? It is an entertaining place to come and point out that Labour have totally lost the plot.

There is no doubt this site serves mainly as entertainment for the many Tory trolls who frequent it (rather too often as well - don't they have jobs to do?).

The notion of having a very open filter is a good one in theory but it has effectively crippled the site because of people like Celia (Celia will now post something remarkably pithy, spinningly humourous and bitterly scathing and all her Tory pals will be roundly amused and deeply satisfied. In fact I bet she can't resist - shall we wait and see? I bet she can't...).

It's a bit rich for Labour types to talk about jobs, when they pretty much all have non-jobs at the taxpayers' teat themselves, whilst ensuring that in a few months hardly anyone else in the country will have one.

And still they're on here bickering about how to control dissenting voices.

I listed in an earlier topic some of the tricks that I've seen before. This pattern doesn't add value to Labour List but is a take down exercise. Americans get confidence and do communication way better while the British have a more class concious and partisan streak running through them. I suspect, that and America is the land of the how-to manual is behind a lot of that difference.

Trolls are like day traders. They just want the razzle dazzle and crowd following so they can make a short-term buck. They don't care about what you're trying to build or give a rats ass for anyone. People who wouldn't be like that in the street can fall into this because of the more absract and socially distant model of the internet.

You only need about five rules. They need to be positive and anything more than that just gets forgotten. I made a list that I called the "five golden rules" but lost it ages ago. Stay on topic, don't argue or flamebait, or something like that. I'm sure Labour List can develop an equivalent. An expanded version can help explain the reasoning behind the rules so people understand and moderators have a more nuanced view.

I've been around this stuff for so long I can spot the "nudge". That's a dead ringer for a topic being derailed by arguing and namecalling. It can take 3-10 posts before it becomes obvious but the practiced eye can spot it before it becomes a problem. The same applies to people. Some are at the wrong party or recidivists. You have to show them the door.

I've also commented before that you can't brand everyone a "Tory troll". Some people might have misuderstandings and dislikes they're getting over. They might just be visiting out of curiosity or genuine discontent. Labelling them as Tories just alienates them and drives them into the arms of Tories. The British are insanely bad at service industries. Aim for quality and bend over backwards to serve your guest. If they're at the wrong hotel recommend somewhere else, and if they're a genuine bad guest politely show them the door.

Britain and the British online community need good leadership. By borrowing from the best of America and Japan, I've learned about leadership, branding, product quality, and service. These are all things the British are looking for and are unhappy with. By putting these things front and centre, getting the "how to", and taking time to leave no man behind, I believe, Labour can set that lead Britian needs in every policy, in every stuido interview, and every site, post, and comment online.

Study the Tao concept of "total war", The book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi, every and book on confidence and communication that's going. Watch movies on leadership like "Patton". Read poetry. Paint. Buy a camera and learn to take photographs. Walk the dog. Make life a learning process and value every oppoprtunity you have to spend with people. Make excellence your central goal in life. Appreciate the ordinary.

So, if you are so very wonderful, why don;t you do a Dan hannan/Ian Dale/Guido Fawkes and let us know the address?

Charles, you've read some Taoist literature...we get the message. No need to mention it every other post. It's a tad patronising after a while.

...and 'Wear sunscreen'

We're not all tory trolls and no we don't all have jobs, have you seen the state of the economy?

"There is no doubt this site serves mainly as entertainment for the many Tory trolls who frequent it (rather too often as well - don't they have jobs to do?)."

1) This (non-Tory) 'troll' is finally getting the Labour party to fund something that benefits me.

2) I am self-employed and do as I please.

If you want to restrict Labour List to the fawning faithful rather than engage with the wider world, go ahead. I would have thought, however, that there are plenty of other Labourite hermetic ghettos.

"If you want to restrict Labour List to the fawning faithful rather than engage with the wider world, go ahead."

I don't remember suggesting that. I stated what I felt was the current position with the site - I didn't offer any alternatives or solutions (cue Celia with an hilarious quip about Labour having no viable alternatives or solutions - what a card she is).

No comment.

:-)

I do assume that everyone has ticked the 'show trash comments'...

What's it do?

It enables one to view comments that are 'trashed' (like my response to this post which was naughty in that it 'dissed' the mighty leader and his followers).

So the moderators tag a comment as trash, and we can choose to see it or not?

Correct.

Three main criticisms:

1) Any venture associated with Derek Draper is bound to be tainted with sleaze and slime.

2) Most of the posters and editorial staff seem very young and inexperienced (in every sense). All eager-beaver types keen to impress their superiors and score points within their own little Young Labour, Junior Labour or Baby Labour collectivist cliques. It really should be run by and for grown ups*.

3) Most of the posts - no matter however titled - end up 'bashing the Tories'. If you were in opposition this would be understandable. Instead, as the party of government is indicates impotence. An honest investigation of Labour's own errors, mistakes, blunders, corruptions and disasters would be a good start.

In summary, Labour List lacks maturity and gravitas - but most of all credibility.

But please don't give up - I'm having too much fun.

* Having said that, it is understandable that only the truest of true believers would lash themselves to the mast of a foundering ship, piloted onto the rocks by a psychologically-flawed, self-deluded megalomaniac and his motely crew of incompetents who are stuffing their faces and pockets as they head for disaster.

Great - I've been 'untrashed'. Ta!

The issue for me, as expressed a couple of times on here already, is access, specifically the lack of a "filter". if this is to be "where like minded Labour people come together" it needs a mechanism where your prove your Labour (I have suggested party cards)and stand by your posts with a real name. The level of debate on here will improve once the tory trolls and unreconstructed wind up artists have departed (although to be fair it didn't take much to have better debate than Labour Home). The movement is going need space to debate and evaluate after the next election regardless of result and if Labour List is to be a vital part of that it needs to rid itself of those whom progress is a dirty concept.

I'd throw out the content management platform Labour are using. It's a dud. Other platforms can be better tailored, contain meta data, and have richer moderation capabilities.

I've commented on moderation before. I know it inside out and back to front, and you can get books on this stuff. By setting a lead in this area Labour can raise the quality of comment and better shape the British market that's been taken over by a handful who spend too much time arguing and taking the piss out of other.

There's a difference between making a point, backing it up with analysis, and being social than the "free speech" some people use which is deliberately provocative, content free, and emotionally manipulative. It's the difference between civilisation and barbarism, or added value versus trolling.

I can point to any number of American sites which are run by private business that are a generation ahead of almost any British site. The land of the free and mighty dollar just nukes the dreg and bans the repeat offenders. If they want crap they can set up their own site which nobody reads.

I would have thought you'd be a fan of tangentlabs, what with their Taoist inspired product naming policy. You're right though, anyone worth their salt with Joomla could quickly improve on the current setup.

As well as Wordpress, Joomla is the other good suggestion.

I lose track of things after that as I haven't looked at these systems for a few years and life is short.

Scoop is the best platform - used by DailyKos - but Drupal is coming along fast.

For five bucks, anyone could set up a better site than this at soapblox.com. But as you say, it's the moderating and (I'd stress even more) the recommending and trusted user ratings that really make a community blog function properly

"The land of the free and mighty dollar"

And you are a Labour voter, right?

Never voted Labour. Never been a member of Labour. Never been paid by Labour.

That is to crashingly misunderstand the internet Michael S, open access is the whole point, the world doesn't need the deluded back-slapping and ignoring the real world and besides, there only seem to be two or three labour supporters here, they can't all be filling out their expenses, surely.

And please stop using the word 'progress', its a fine and noble word and has no place in discussing the morally bankrupt sewer that the once mighty Labour Party has become.

It's their blog. They don't have to put up with Tories and whiners rewriting the content or driving their market share away. There's enough Tory blogs and cesspits on the internet for that.

Why are you so afraid of the "Tory Trolls"? The majority make valid points. Most of which you are unable to counter with any kind of intelligent answer. Labour tried their "Big Conversation" to see what the nation was thinking. When they didn't like what they heard, they quickly ignored it. You're suggesting more of the same. You don't like hearing the truth, so you'd rather restrict access to this site so that you don't have to hear it anymore. And you think that kind of attitude is going to win you the next election?

The last time I checked about 90% of the comments were turning to dreg. That's not sustainable with any enterprise. Any more than 5% dreg and you have a problem. More than 10% and you're being taken over. These numbers are consistent across criminology and sociology. Nick Robinson's blog has imploded and the same crowd are trying to strangle Labour List before it gets traction. That means trouble for someone.

I've commented before that the hits don't mean a thing. Sure, it's not a great idea to stock a shop with near empty shelves. If customers clock that and pass on by. Neither is it a great idea just to let the competition just put their own stock on your shelves and let any random perp cash cheques without authentication. The Tories and wannabes might say otherwise but they're talking bullshit they want you to believe because it's profitable for *them*.

More compelling articles and assertive moderation will give Labour List more space to develop on its own terms. This will attract more people with something to say and build up a more loyal customer base. It might cost a big initial hit in interactive traffic but you're looking at a 1-3 year cycle for typical site growth. Labour is late to the game so that's not great but it has a long established brand it can leverage that stand alone competitors don't have.

If you look at game producers like Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo, you'll get an idea that they've all got different but similar products in the console space. The interactive mass medium is relatively new to gaming but MMO's have been around for a while just as much as blogs have. The console and producer front is new but they've all made a strong impact. This is roughly where I see Labour List positioning itself.

"it has a long established brand it can leverage that stand alone competitors don't have." Just like Woolies.

The usability on this site is awful. Commentators don't know what code is allowed in posts, is it html or bbcode or nothing. The interface screams nothing but I found out that at least some html is allowed - what tags. Taobase is totally out of date. It is very 2001 and I cannot understand why the whole Labour party use it. Blogger back in 2001 had more functionality for the blog user than Taobase does. Why not use WordPressµ like Harvard (that's at Harvard not in Harvard), edublogs and Le Monde do. Its scaleable, free and is the software that runs wordpress.com.

There are thousands of themes and plugins to use ---- I could go on and on but just don't have the time.

(that's at Harvard not in Harvard)

Hahaha.

That's some good comment on killing a brand and thorwing money down the drain of backward infrastructure. I told a company in a similar tailspin about a better content management system and forum software and they did nothing for another 3 years or so. You can get away with that if you're raking in money and other people are doing the PR for you but that's not the case here, and there's an unmovable deadline approaching.

I checked out Taobase but it looked pretty crummy from the little I found out, and I'm not going to wrestle with a company that makes me go through hoops to see a demo and has no discernable ecosystem. There's better CMS out there but Wordpress is usable. It's got issues but I'd pick a damp cereal box over what Labour are using now.

I also took a look at Alistair Campbell's blog. The design just isn't worth talking about and the company that knocked it together looks like it's a show run by some boyfriend of Alistair Cambell's niece, or something. I've already thrown a recommendation Draper's way. It's not chickenfeed but like day and night compared to what they've got, and the guy does off the shelf for cheap.

Labour should ditch Taobase and whoever they're using as designers because they're crap, and however much money they're spending is too much. The stuff doesn't work and the designs are a put off. Yes, I know how pissy people can get when you come at it straight like this but we're right and World & Dog agree with us. Clue: Labour are the only one in the room that don't get this. The clock is ticking and no matter how much people hate the Tories there isn't a mood for carrying a bunch of clowns.

C'mon. This is a few months since people made an issue of this stuff. Labour need to pull their finger out, take ownership, and get this puppy nailed in 30 days or less. I bet they won't. They'll be chuffing along like Windows Vista SP2 because Labour are top heavy and think they've got some monopoly on people's vote. Sweet moley. They've been told about Wordpress. They've got the name of a top designer. They have the money. WTF is going on here?

Yeah, I can rant more Christoper Bale when I get going. This is short and very toned down. BUT I DON'T HAVE THE TIME FOR DICKING AROUND WITH SOME PARTY THAT THINKS IT HAS THE LUXURY OF LOSING AN ELECTION AND FORCING THE GODDAMN TORIES ON ME FOR ANOTHER 20 DAMN YEARS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO DAMN STUPID, SCARED, OR CHEAP TO GET OFF THEIR BLOODY ASSES. Oh, and I hate having to tell Cabinet Minister's with an MBA from Harvard how to do their frikkin' job.

1. Wordpress.
2. That designer I emailed Draper about.
3. Deadline.

Got it? Jeeeesus.

"We need more brave and controversial expressions of opinion, like Mary Honeyball’s post on religion being a ‘personal eccentricity’"

For a proponent of video clips you have chosen an unfortunate example, since comments are not allowed on Mary Honeyball's comedy video under "VideoList".

Brave? Er, no.

Here's some really helpful advice from a Tory Troll.
1. If you have something to say and you know what you are talking about, then say it and let people comment. For instance, John Redwood knows a lot about the economy because he has been in business himself for a number of years. Anyone can comment and, so long as they keep their language clean and don't bash the government - or anyone personally - they can have their say for as long as it takes.
2. John Redwood is a committed Conservative so you know where you stand. He reads - or says he does - every post himself, so you know that he is listening. He also writes every day. Is anyone at all reading this post, for example?
3. Things that get said on the blog come up when he speaks or writes in public, so you know that if you say anything sensible, it will be repeated. Conversely, the general ideas on the blog are the ideas which he follows almost exclusively.
4. This is moved him from a has-been with funny ears singing the Welsh National Anthem to the front of stage.

Another example : Dan Hannan, who was told that he would make a good PM on Fox! What about Iain Dale? Archbishop Cranmer? Guido Fawkes?

You see, Harriet Harman, whom I thought was going to be a John Redwood of the Left, just can't cut it. She doesn't do all of the necessary four things above. Doing a political blog is very important - and very rewarding - today. It takes time, not money, and every post must have the ear of someone important.
Is there nobody in the Labour movement who has the time and the know-how and, yes, the love of the people of this country to do a good blog?

PS if anyone knows of a decent left wing blog, I should be very interested to know about it.

Concentrating purely on form rather than content, log on to a site called Civinfo.

It's surely the best example on the web of how to manage, administer and navigate a site.

Civinfo is horribly muddled and off-the-peg in appearance in my opinion.

Is it compulsory for the boys to have photos of their frikkin' cars though? Jees.