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Mary Honeyball's post on religion is demeaning to religion - and to politics

By VoteRedGoGreenCSM

I'm afraid I take issue with Mary Honeyball's tone and conclusions in her post, Tony Blair's Aggressive Christianity.

This isn't just because I am a Christian, and she is not. It's for two reasons: first, because she ignores the heritage of Christian Socialism that runs through our party's veins; and secondly, her proposed solution hinges on repressing opposing views, rather than facing them head on.

The Labour Party always has been a coalition between different forces with broadly similar aims. Many of our founders - from both the working and middle class strands of the party in its infancy - were Christian Socialists: Keir Hardie, Philip Snowden, R. H. Tawney and George Lansbury, to name but a few. More recently, Tony Blair (as Mary points out) is a Christian, as is Australian Labor Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. The view that - as well as all of the economic and social imperatives Mary, I and other comrades share - there is an additional, religious calling to treat people equally, and to promote justice and solidarity, is one which Mary ought to tolerate, and even celebrate.

Mary instead chooses to judge Christians entirely on their Churches' stances on certain niche issues. For example, she talks about the attempts of the Roman Catholic Church "and other extreme Christian organisations" to defeat the Human Fertilization and Embryology Bill.

Fair enough - she disagrees (as, incidentally, do I, as a practicing Catholic) with the Church's stance. But she goes to far when she says:

"Activities such as these are not the mark of an aggressively secular society. There has, in fact, been a marked increase in political lobbying by Christian organisations over the last ten years. We are getting more of it in the public square not less."
She forgets that, for all of the lobbying by religious organizations, our side won that fight. It was a fair fight, where both sides - and there were Christians on both sides of that debate - argued the case, and the case for scientific progress beat the case against.

Mary's article seems to imply that the presence of Christian lobby groups is a malign influence on our politics. How can this be, when she is still able to beat them, fair and square, whenever she comes into conflict with them?

Whilst Christianity may be more of a minority persuit than before, the fact remains that millions of British people are religious adherents. I'm not suggesting that we need, or want, any special privileges over the non-religious. But like all other sectional lobby groups - like charitable organizations, or Trade Unions - there ought to be a place for religious views in our public debate. Mary Honeyball's sneering caricature of religion, and her obvious desire to expel Christians even from debate about politics does not enhance the quality of our politics - it demeans it.

Posted on Mar 12, 2009 at 03:57pm


23 Comments · Show / Hide
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Celia and Roger, you jump to assumptions have a look at my blog and I tackle fundamentalist Hindus, Muslims, Jews and Christians. Trust you will apologise for the unwarranted criticism.
Stewart Cowan is virulently abti-abortion and anti-gay. I debate with him on my blog but he pretty much hates all the equality measures Labour has introduced. I support them all of course. Have a look at his blog.
Vote Red Go Green I have no desire to expel Christians from debate, again look at my blog and I debate with them, even fundamentalists like Stewart. There's only one person sneering. Not very Christian if you ask me.
Mary Honeyball @ 71 weeks and 6 days ago
No, you just attack religion and say that Catholics should not sit on the Government front bench because they listen to the Pope. That is no better than Norman Tebbit and his cricket test.
Arjun Mittra @ 71 weeks and 3 days ago
As they refer to your article and not your blog their criticism is entirely warranted.
Winston Smith @ 71 weeks and 5 days ago
The reaction to Honeyball's piece says a lot. Religion doesn't like being criticised and will attempt to stifle such criticism. Other commentators have made valid points about her focusing on only one religion. She should have cast her net wider as, in my opinion, all religion is oppresive and seeks to secure for their ruling elites power in this lifetime while promising their followers a better life in the next. Religion as Darwin said is a 'damnable doctrine'.
Stuart W @ 72 weeks ago
I'm not religious...

...but I find Mary Honeyball's malicious hatred of all things Christian blinkered and extremist.

Coward that she is, she doesn't mention other, more contentious religions.

I have no idea who VoteRedGoGreen is or represents, but well done for spiking Mary Honeyball's rancid boil.
The Very Celia Stobart @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm bemused by this - I read this post first, and found (find) it a very intelligent and knowledgeable piece - I'm not a Christian, but was brought up in the Heavy Woollen District, where the non-conformist chapels that remain, and my memories of the ones that have been demolished stand testament to the roots of the Labour movement.
When I read Mary Honeyballs piece I expected a bit of an offensive rant - but no - I don't think it is - I think it's measured and sensible, clearly not promoting Christianity - but why would we atheists do that ?
Stephen Smith @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
As this post points out, Mary didn't simply state that she disagreed with the Christian lobbyists' arguments, she seemed to disagree with them being allowed to make them. She also described the Catholic Church as an "extreme organisation". Not being a Catholic, that still sounds like offensive ranting to me. I have no problem with her using such terminology for effect, but she mustn't expect to be taken too seriously if she decides to.
Hugh Pettit @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
Interesting that Honeyball's rant about religion is exclusively about Christianity.

Is she to frightened to talk about Islam or does she just turn a blind eye to the forced marriages,female circumcision,women treated like third class citizens et al?
roger alexander @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
Christianity is an elitist religion that hides behind soothing words consisting of nothing but make-believe. It steals from the old by promising eternal life. How many wills have been donated to the church down the generations so that vicars can live in comfort? It lacks a morality and so steals natural morality and lays claim to all ethics by false words - it is a religion based on lies and uses obfuscation to hide said lies. Whatever its values are, more akin to nihilism than socialism, they are nothing to do with the shared values of greater humanity. It is one step removed from a death religion as is shown by the symbolic ritual human sacrifice at its heart. It has spread by the sword as much as the dripping lies of its missionaries - if this is to be accommodated within the Labour Party let it be done with a long spoon, in private.
kevin hollingsworth @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
I've never read so much poisoned, uninformed rubbish in all my life.

The Labour Party was founded largely on Christian principles.

You need a history lesson, a religious lesson and a lesson in manners!
Stewart Cowan @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
If this is the worst you've ever read you probably should get out more often.
Stuart W @ 72 weeks ago
The Labour Party was founded in a deeply bigoted Christian age and has struggled to continuously move towards a fairer socialist ideal. The principles of Christianity change with the weather - one century burning old women at the stake and looking for witches under every bed - another century all meek & mild whilst trying to pretend the previous century didn't happen. I'm well aware of the history of this religion Stewart; like any other it goes dormant and then bursts into bloody acts of terror so that it can spread; and if there is a God then that God in no way corresponds to this religious creed; carrying as it does the sword and making proud boastful claims to dominion over the earth. This religion that ran amok throughout the centuries justifying genocide in the name of its imaginary deity.
kevin hollingsworth @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
Kevin, I suggest you read my post on Tom Harris's blog that is directed to people who talk complete nonsense.
Stewart Cowan @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
I am not a religious person. Nevertheless, I do believe that if people want to belong to voluntary organisations and collectively to express their views, then they have every right to do so.
Marek Marek @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
So, you're a Christian in New Labour? It must be very lonely for you. I would be very interested to know how much you have had to compromise your beliefs to fit in.

I have tried to explain things to Mrs Honeyball via her blog on a number of occasions, but she has her own agenda, like forcing abortion onto the N. Irish, even though they are vehemently against it.

I don't know who she detests more - Christians or men.
Stewart Cowan @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
Many like me who live in Northern Ireland are vehemently for a woman's right to choose but have yet to get a political framework where such basic rights can be addressed through the vote. Please do not make blanket statements about people here as if we all have one political viewpoint.

Anyone who wants to understand a positive inter-connection between faith and progressive political values should read Sarah-Louise Martin's blog elsewhere on Labour List.
Andrew McCracken @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
There's that word "progressive" again. Choosing to kill your unborn kith and kin is not very progressive to me.

The majority in your neck of the woods want to keep death by abortion out of the province. I thought a democratic socialist party would want to abide by majority views.
Stewart Cowan @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
I can only agree with you. Honeyball is not only an insult to our traditions of tolerance but also to reasoned debate.

Like a lot of ambitious people with minor intellectual abilities she cannot see the collateral damage that she is inflicting on the public's respect for the political system by being unable to argue her point rationally and with intelligence.
Marek Marek @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
I have heard it repeatedly said by lobbyists for religious organisations that religious views are being 'squeezed out' and ignored in public debate. I can't see what's wrong with pointing out what a patently ridiculous assertion this is. Religious representatives sit in the 2nd chamber and have massive protected slots in the mainstream media. This kind of special platform is not offered to nearly another other kind of pressure group.

I totally accept and hail the Christian tradition in the Labour party; but we can do that whilst also accepting that the privileged position religious organisations hold in British society and our legislature as fundamentally unfair.
Richard Green @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
VoteRedGoGreen - I can't see much socialism or Christianity in NuLabour - whwether it is Blair distorting "facts" to whip up support for an illegal war, or Purnell trying to force women with a one year old child back into work, as for the premise behind your name - I would just say Vote Red - get the third runway at London airport - what is "green" about that?

If you want Green you have to vote Green.
Alan Giles @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
All very well. But do we really need crusading sermons from politicians? Ones that automatically fully or partly exclude those of other religions and none. Both in this country and across the wide wide world.

And are you even representing Mary's expressed views honestly?
Chris Paul @ 72 weeks and 2 days ago
If he's not representing her views honestly, it's fairly easy to rumble him, isn't it? People know how to scroll. Not sure where you feel he has misrepresented her, though.
Hugh Pettit @ 72 weeks and 1 day ago
it was always said that the labour party owed more to methodism than marxism

not sure if this holds good for nulab however
david cheeseman @ 72 weeks and 2 days ago