Loading... Please wait...

Ungrateful? Moi?

Boris HatBy Simon Wright and Katie Hanson

You might be getting bored with the list of Labour achievements on equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. Try thinking about it this way:

When the Conservatives were last in government, the law said that men aged 16 or 17 were criminals if they had a boyfriend. Our bosses were free to decide that we should be sacked, refused a job or denied promotion because of our sexuality. There was humiliation for transgender people who had to use ID in their original gender. There were scores of sexual offences laws that applied only to gay sex and were used by police forces desperate to raise their conviction rates to please Tory Home Secretaries. A neglected child was thought better off living in care than in a loving same-sex couple's home. Local authorities could be prosecuted if they did anything to promote equality in their area. A company or a public body could refuse to provide us with a services if they felt like it and there was nothing we could do. And a couple who had made their life together had no right to have this recognised and could find their relationship obliterated if one became ill or died.

So you would think that LGBT voters would be especially grateful to Labour? Apparently not. Shocking to those of us with longer memories, polls suggest that more LGBT voters are willing to put the Conservatives back in power than want Labour to stay. The rebranding of David Cameron and the Tories has been remarkable. A few patronising comments without any policy commitments has been called a transformation. A few Tories at a Pride march is big news for the gay media, whereas Labour's long commitment is old hat. A few younger Tory MPs standing very close to the camera are preventing us from seeing the massed ranks of old-fashoned bigots that stand behind them.

These LGBT voters recognise that all the hard work has been done by Labour and assume that the Conservatives would not dare to reverse the gains. But the Tory rebranding is so shallow, they have not even changed their voting pattern in the Commons. The vast majority of Tory MPs have continued to vote against every equality measure, every time. Cameron himself has personally turned out to vote against gay adoption, against anti-hate legisation and against equality in IVF treatments. Only one simple reason stopped them from destroying our equality measures - there are more Labour MPs than Conservative ones.

It is a cliché, but true: people do not vote to express gratitude, they vote to encourage change. Between now and the general election, we have to prove that Labour is the only party that can deliver the change that we still need. Not only to protect our gains but with a clear and ambitious forward programme and the will to make it happen. Our Equality Bill will be a vital tool to turn legal equality into full social equality but only with a government that wants to make it happen. Thanks to the National Policy Forum, our manifesto already has mutliple commitments on delivering equality both in the UK and abroad. We cannot assume that LGBT voters are grateful or remember what the Tories are really like. We have to persuade them with the facts.

Posted on Jul 03, 2009 at 05:32pm

82 Comments · Show / Hide
Leave a comment »   show trash comments ·
It's against the law to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, so if you were to sack somebody who was gay (because they're certainly not going to tell you they're gay in the interview) then they'll take you to court and win. Personally, that sounds fantastic to me.

Your kids will engage with homosexuality from multiple sources: TV, friends, work colleagues, university etc. and there's nothing you can do about it.

'Your community' doesn't exist. Most working-class and middle-class people are quite happy to see equality under the law. It's only you who wets yourself over it.

And lastly, there's more of 'us' (those who believe in equality) than you, and we avoid people like you like the plague. What's great is that you can be sacked for being bigoted or homophobic, so it's more likely to be people like you out of work.

That's why we're seeing all the foaming-at-the-mouth Daily Heil readers leave Britain for less-developed countries (including yourself). I wave goodbye to them at the airport!

The culture war's have already been won, and you were on the losing side of them.
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 1 day ago
Sadly post after post after post in reply to you is blocked.

LL is a little like your mind set, hide yourself away from reality and you can believe anything.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
Whatever happens fortunately there's enough of us that will never regard people like you as anything other than people to avoid like the plague.

My kids will grow up happily never confronted by promotion of homosexuality. My community will never regard homosexual couples the equal of heterosexual couples in terms of adoption or child rearing.

I'm also happy to say that talking to you has made my mind up never to employ another gay person again. You can show your "pride" in the number of jobs lost now can't you.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
No, I'm afraid it's tough for you because you've already lost the debate on most of those matters.

Same-sex adoption already exists and doesn't contain the caveats you want. And I'm sure same-sex marriage will happen soon enough. It's happening in plenty of other countries, won't be long til it's here either. Especially now that the LibDems are signed up to it, and it's becoming an increasingly prominent discussion.

Regarding equality, we're talking about equality under the law. That certainly is something which is achievable and it's becoming ever closer to reality by the day. Nothing wrong with that.
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
And I would certainly not want my kids mixing with your 'sort'.

I expect my children to grow up with a reasonale, rational view of the world, not one based on stereotypes and ignorance.

But anyway, your children will mix with gay people at school, at university, at work etc. There's nothing you can do about that. If your kids have any sense, they'll judge people on their character, not sexual orientation. Otherwise they'll end up bitter and twisted like your good self.

And regarding your obsession with class: first you accused the working classes of being anti-gay, and now you've lost that argument, you're trying to suggest that the middle classes are anti-gay? Make your mind up man. The reality is that you're wrong on both counts. Only a small minority are ruled by ignorance, and the rest of the population generally ignores them or laughs at them.
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
I make very certain my kids don't mix with your sort.

I think you'll find an aweful lot of the middle class do the same thing. Why else would we spend vast amounts of money buying property in the right catchement areas or paying for private education?

I can't abide socialists, really I despise them. Something you can't get your head around isn't it?
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
I comment on LL as I want to ensure that a different view to the likes peddles by your sort gets heard.

No I don't believe in full equality as i don't think an egalitarian society would work.

You don't have full equality over access to my land do you?

You don't have full equality to be able fiancially to go on the same holiday as a millionaire do you?

Is there full equality over being able to live in the UK?

Is there full equality over whther both children and adults can drink?

How many examples do you need before you realise an "equal" society is a myth?

Same sex coules can adopt so long as the state and social services accept same sex couples should be behind heterosexual coulpes in order of preference.

Same sex couples should get the same legal rights as married couples thourgh CPs. Marriage should be a heterosexual institution.

Heterosexual married couples should get tax breaks and be seen as the best family unit.

You don't like that? Tough, I don't like you or your views either.

Guy M @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
You know precisely the point I am making.

For anyone who is genuinely in doubt:

Bill posted:
Not entirely sure what you consider a 'small' minority Guy, but considering there are 3.6 million openly gay people living in the UK, I should imagine by the time youu include those in the 'closet', bisexual and transgender that the numbers in the UK would be hardly what you would call 'small'.

Meanwhile the source he cites does not support his (unqualified) assertion that there are "3.6 million openly gay people living in the UK" the source actually says that this is based on unreliable data (but all they have), it gives no indication of possible margin of error, it makes no reference to 'openly gay' etc...

Tip for all blog participants - if someone cites a source, check it, people often give links to give a (false) impression of reliability, meanwhile relying on people being too lazy to check.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
As things stand it will be more out of the labour fire into the tory frying pan. Still a long way from getting away from the heat.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
Exactly. Why should homosexual voting patterns be any different from the rest of the population? We're all affected by the same incompetent New Labour cabal currently in power. Unfortunately, since the Labour Party cannot sort itself out we are going to get five years of the Tony Blair wannabe "Dave" and his New Tories - out of the New Labour frying-pan into the Tory fire.

Tom Sacold @ 35 weeks and 2 days ago
Clearly not half as naive as you if you think nobody ever gets prosecuted for sexual orientation discrimination.

Most people don't think like you do, so they'd have no reason to discriminate.
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Yes I certainly would in your case.

So not only are you homophobic, but you're also a class warrior. You'd make Alf Garnett blush with your extreme ways.

The saddest part of all of this is that you actually believe most people in this country are like you. My goodness, I suspect most Tories would love to kick you out of their party.
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
You're Britain's answer to Ted Haggard.

Let's be honest, you've moaned about the amount of LGBT threads on here (which is on a Labour site I would remind you) and yet you've commented on every single one of them.

Sounds a little curious to me. You know perfectly well that your strange ideas aren't going to get much support here, yet you feel the need to declare them to everyone on every post. That's why I said "me thinks thou doth protest too much".

And clearly you don't believe in equality under the law as you don't believe in same-sex adoption or same-sex marriage. So why lie? Why not just admit that you don't believe in equality?
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
No I didn't include those quotes, what is the point you are making?

Is it relevant how long a period the studies have been made over? And as I said in comment below in response to Ralph, virtually all the surveys and reports on the size of the gay population are estimates. So again, what is the point you are making?
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I have to say Bill you are correct and I (as a democratic socialist within the Labour Party) can testify to having disagreed with you on debate, and also that you are a genuine character with your own views and no sycophant which is why I respect.

Guy you have contradicted yourself constently throughout this debate, if you want to fight socialists your best bet is to on the weaker socialists as you term them. Bill is correct your fighting skills are feeble and your level of debate as unsustainable and inconsistent when exposed to logical reasonable arguement. You are a weak debater. I would suggest you spend your time attacking some of the contributors as they seem to have as weak an ability in debating as you do and might make you look a bit smarter in the eyes of your fellow Trolls.
Ralph Baldwin @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
We're going round in circles and we've both made it clear we're not going to agree.

I would like to make one point though Guy, if you'd read what I have put elsewhere, particularly in response to Laurie in some of her recent articles, I am not in favour of positive descrimination. Never have been and I doubt I ever will be. Before you give judgement on my opinion, could you try and discover what my opinion is? I'm Labour minded, not a member of the Labour Party or a Labour Party member, there is a huge difference and worth remembering before you call me a socialist thief again. I'm amazed that some of my opinions of the current administration are published, but it does prove that the LL allows a broad range of views, even ones that do not follow the current Labour Party line.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
That isn't how to deal with the issue at all Guy. What we should be doing is debating issues without doing what I have just done in this article, attacking you personally.

Yes, I have lost my cool with you, but it is your crass comments regarding children in care that have got my back up, not your opinion of those who happen to be gay. I was about to apologise to a comment I made above as I believe I was out of order with you, but you've made it clear in the past that this would be an irrelevance as to you I am nothing more than a socialist thief. In my opinion, calling someone a thief is a pretty major insult but you seem to throw it at me and others rather a lot.

How about we leave the childish comments at the door in future and debate things sensibly without insults? You resist the urge to label me a thief at every given opportunity and I'll resist the urge to label you a pompous prat. Does that sound fair and equal, or is it more enjoyable that we go at each other endlessly without actually resolving anything?

If you haven't noticed already I don't sing the praises of the government, nor do I agree with certain articles, but I do try to debate the issue based on facts I've researched. Arguing about children in care with someone who has been in care, especially when you have limited or no experience of it, then proclaiming that you are right and I am wrong based purely on a point of view is a pretty poor show. There is nothing wrong with not having an answer to a question.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Little boys get into playground fights/scuffles a lot you know.

I wasn't talking about men in their 20s and 30s but boys who play rough and get the dead hand of a feminised education system telling them to behave more like girls.

I've never had a member of any sports team I've been in come out as gay. So all I can go on is that given most are married or with girlfriends that they were stright.

It's very hard to bond in a sports team, military or other like group with a mix of straight and gay members.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
If anything my post made the point that everyone is not equal in interests in outlook. I still disagree with you on the masculinity point. Is fighting actually "typical" of men? It;s not true that a majority men, even in communities where physical violence is common, don't actually get into physical fights with any regularity. So it's not actually maleness that makes someone fight a lot, is it?

I wasn't commenting on what you actually did or do in your spare time - that is of course up to you so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I think you are only recognising one kind of gay man though. There are plenty of straight-acting gay men who hate gay clubs and bars, and who do the same social activities as straights.

There ARE a lot of closet gay men in many sports teams, but actually I share your dislike of the slightly patronising "or at least you thought so" line. I'm not being right on, I just think you're basing your opinions on ideas that are not fully supported by actuality.
B Bendle @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
It will usually be irrelevant, yes. It's there to fill in gaps where even employment law experts weren't clear about the situation under previous legislation where two candidates were equal (which does happen - not necessarily often, but sometimes).

You've still not said why you're so convinced it's white males that will be harmed. I can think of plenty of workplaces where diversity would be served by *increasing* the number of white males.
Thomas Williams @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Tell her I hope she is happy and that I'll support in her choices but that I don't want to be involved in the gay aspect of her life.

I certainly wouldn't agree with her having children in a gay partnership.

After that, I could go back to being blissfully unaware I was avoiding this multi-million strong gay community that you'd have me believe are wandering the country.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Those were composed with care? You didn't take the care not to offend anyone, that's for sure.
Alex Smith @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I no longer write anything so long or time consuming that I care if it never appears - so don't worry on my account.

Having spent time carefully composing comments (whether you like it or not) only for them to be vaped without trace just confirms to me what a socialist state is like.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Indeed it could be viewed in 2 ways.

Doesn't really bother me though, the meaning from my posts in contextual terms is pretty clear.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
The way to deal with it Alex is to ban all non socialist contribution.

If you won't do that you can't claim to hold any moral ground by simply blocking replies that you don't like.

I've said before please go ahead and ban all non socialists, it's admitting defeat though, which you realise so I wonder if you are prepared to do it.

If not though, just blocking replies to give the semblance of a view that the right-wing poster has met with an unanswerable left wing titanic argument is devious at best.

As for the "I won't publish endless droning about "hating socialism"." comment, you do publish endless droning comments about how Tories aren't "progressive", are "bigots", don't beieve in "equality". Or maybe the lovely posts from Ms Penny where all white males are part of the problem.

Live by the sword etc. unless you edit the LL site where you get to pick and chose winners with the same level of success as Labour governments picking and choosing business winners.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Me and Bill have discussed this at length, as I have with many other people at how we should deal with you two especially. Maybe the Trash option is the right one...?
Alex Smith @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Alex

You have the 'trash' button to mark posts that *you* don't like.

If you think all socialists are so simple minded that you can anticipate their response to everything written, then you have an even lower opinion of them than I do.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
You still don't get it do you?

I didn't claim surprise at my friends "attitude and terminology", I was surprised in that it was his perspective and that he told me it.

Subsequently I was a bit surprised that he thought me so different from his other friends, because as I said:

"having been in very "male" environments all my life i.e. sport, I'd never regarded myself as different to the mainstream"

In other words surrounded by other like minded and behaving males, I was no different to a lot of other people. That my friend thought I was noticeably different to his friends "surprised" me.

Is the ability to think this through lost on you?

Would you like to continue another half hour discussion on the use of the word "surprise" or do you have some semblence of a life to lead?



Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
It would be suitably ironic if one of your daughters came home one day and announced she was gay. Whatever would you do Guy after spending all that time avoiding them?
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
You didn't include these quotes from the article...

"The Department of Trade and Industry based the estimate on the findings of a number of studies over the past 15 years"

and

"It is based on a number of studies by different interest groups, but fundamentally there is very little reliable information about the size of the lesbian, gay and bisexual group."
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
As Bill suggests, he wouldn't even want to read the mundanity of the comments of Guy's and TT's that get cut. I'll publish them if they add value to the discussion. I won't publish endless droning about "hating socialism".
Alex Smith @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
"He came out and got into the gay scene, I obviously didn't"

Careful how you word things Guy, that sounds like you decided not to come out as gay and join the scene, choosing instead to remain in the closet. I know what you meant, but there are adults watching and they might misconstrue your meaning.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I've had the same treatment - comments not published and then complaints about it getting through - there must be a house policy.

There is no point in attempting conversation here - just make your comments and move on.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
All those reasoned arguments censored, yet the comment regarding the censorship goes through moderation? How convenient.

I'm not sure whether I'm finding this entertaining or annoying, but you really are getting silly now Guy. Play nicely or I'll tell the teacher.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
As I've replied to you (I suggest you go take another look), your view that my arguments and statements are inconsistant are based upon your inability to read and understand.

You seem to think a long dicussion on the use of the word "surprise", when you haven't grasped the context, is evidence of my inconsistancy? Dear me how silly you are.

My spelling and grammar today are a result of sending reply after reply on 4 or 5 threads in response to moral outrage from the usual leftie suspects. Now I could send every post through a spell check, but you know I just can't be bothered. You aren't worth the time to do that Bill.

I'll restate my view, same sex couples are not as good for bringing up kids as a normal heterosexual couple. You, obviously from personal experience, don't like this and appear to have lost your cool. Whilst I feel sad for you I can't lie and therefore can't agree with you on this gay couple issue.

On the "waving your hands in the air screaming racist" comment. Firstly you aren't trying to emotionalise your response are you? Secondly the equality bill legislates to allow for discrimination (you'd call it positive, I'd call it just plain discrimination) on the basis of both sex and race.

Descrimination on the base of race is RACISM (read that last bit carefully), therefore the Equality Bill is racist (and sexist by the way).

As to the "best friend" issue (pedantic as always aren't you Bill?), your words:

"you happen to have a homosexual best friend Guy", whether you fail to mention if I had others or not is irrelevant. I made it clear it was one of my best friends i.e I gave you clarity whether you needed it or not. I'm not required to sit here Bill only providing information when you ask for it or when you bring something up.

Have you ever debated before, as it seems not?

Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I have no need to reread anything Guy, you fail to understand my point. You claim surprise for your friends attitude and terminology, yet you use have the same attitude and terminology if your earlier comments are to be believed. Now you are attempting to redefine what you said originally which reinforces points I have made in other comments.

Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Even if it is 4 million, I seem to do a remarkable job in avoiding them.

I manage to get my kids to avoid them and my kid's school avoids discussing them.

So if it's 4 million then fine with me so long as my life stays the same thanks.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Fight socialists? With the level of debate you are displaying Guy, you couldn't fight your way past a washing line of wet clothes. All you are doing is displaying your ignorance, your bigotry and your lack of intellect.

And yes, I am taking a pop at your level of intellect. You emphasise the word 'one', but fail to realise that I mentioned your best friend with no mention to whether or not you had others. Constant spelling mistakes, poor grammar and a level of debate that would make a primary school child blush. Please feel free to become as pedantic as I believe you to be and pick holes with my past comments (or this one) on a similar basis. Considering you would have us believe you are so well educated and cultured, you write in the manner I would expect from a common thug. You are a pretentious unsophisticated bully who, when cornered, resorts to class insults, sexist remarks and waving your hands in the air screaming racist.

As mentioned in a comment above you are also inconsistent with your arguments and statements regarding your life, so much so that I am beginning to wonder whether you are in fact a pathological liar. I wouldn't attempt to change your mind Guy. That would be impossible considering you apparently have little logic or reason and as stated, lack the necessary skills to debate an issue properly.

Alex, I apologise for being so insulting with this comment and I completely understand it may be unsuitable for publication.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Oh dear you aren't that good at understanding things are you?

It was a "surprise" that he would say what he said. Surprise that my reaction and persona was apparantly noticeably different from some of his other friends.

As for surprise over whether it was true, again take another look: "having been in very "male" environments all my life i.e. sport, I'd never regarded myself as different to the mainstream"

Go reread it again.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
"more LGBT voters are willing to put the Conservatives back in power than want Labour to stay"

This is the conclusion of a poll conducted by Jake (a social networking site for professional gay men). Not the LGBT community as a whole. Some of the poll's findings were as follows...

When asked "who has actually achieved most for Britain's three million gay voters?"

86.6% said Labour
only 4% said Conservatives

A question on previous voting patterns determined...

40.5% voted Labour
29.5% voted Conservative

And the one that surprised a lot of people... Who will they vote for at the next election?

38.2% intend to vote Conservative
20.7% intend to vote Labour

This constitutes a 14.2% swing to the Conservatives. Why is this?

Personally, I think it's a little insulting to label gay voters as ungrateful. There is genuine gratitude for the good that Labour has done with regards to gay rights, but there is also a lot to be angry about when you take sexuality out of the equation. When 86.6% acknowledge that the Labour has done the most for gay voters, but only 20.7% will vote for them, you can only conclude that this group of people are not going to vote based on the single issue of their sexuality. Labour's handling of the economy, the erosion of civil liberties, illegal wars, an un-elected and incompetent Prime Minister, political corruption and sleaze. All these concern gay voters as much as straight voters.

Zvonko Matovski @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I have read your original comments and I have replied accordingly.

Why the 'surprise' when you used the very same language about yourself in a previous comment? You're not very good at this debating are you Guy? Unless you can rant about the 'nasty thieving socialists' you are lost.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Mmmm sure.

I don't want my kids taught about homosexuality

I don't want my kids mixing with the underclass

I don't like socialists as they represent a vote from the working classes to steal middle class wealth.

Yep, horrendous, best get the social workers in.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Response on gay % of society blocked

Response on research on gay parenting blocked

Can't do much if the referee only wants one side of a debate to be heard
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
How many prosecutions have there been so far?

Anyone in business knows that if you keep copius notes relating to the application and interview procedures you can pretty much defend any decision.

You are very naive aren't you?
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Have you ever recruited anyone Thomas?

I have been doing it for years and I've yet to come across any situation when I've got 2 candidates exactly matched. There's always some way to seperate them.

So the point of the legislation is either:

1 It's followed strictly in which case it's irrelevant

2 It's followed loosely in which case it's racist and sexist.

My point is this, I've never used race or sex as a method of determining candidates and I don't want a Labour government telling me that I can. If I so much as let race or sex come into play then that racism and sexism.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
One of my best friends from politics.

He came out and got into the gay scene, I obviously didn't. As a result we didn't socialise that much.

I meet him for business luches every now and then and keep in contact but it's different social scenes we live in. He's very happy, I'm happy for him, but we both know we don't have a great deal in common socially.

Not too hard for you to grasp?
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
You don't mix with gays and didn't want to Guy? Erm, would this include one of your 'best friends' who you slapped on the back and said "Good on you" when he came out to you?

This is like debating with a child. At least have a modicum of consistency Guy, you are beginning to look ridiculous.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Yes, you ahve no idea when you meet although I have to say with a lot it's pretty likely that they are.

Personally I've worked and had my political life with gays and got on very well with them.

I just haven't wanted to socialise with them much.

I remember the birthday party for a friend who was one of my vice chairman in politics. He was gay and held the first part of his evening at a normal bar in covent garden before moving onto a gay club. His striaght friends went to the pub and didnt go to the gay club. His gay friends got pretty stroppy about the straight friends not wanting to go to the gay club. All it did was confirm my view hat I didn't want to socialise with them.

Vive la difference
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
read the original posts:

"As one of my best friends said when he came out.... " etc. It wasn't my point and I had never considered it.

It was a point that he found it funny that all is supposedly open minded friends had seemed uncomfortable when he told them and I wasn't.

His persepctive not mine. I was surprised because having been in very "male" environments all my life i.e. sport, I'd never regarded myself sa different to the mainstream (and still don't).

Perhaps it said more about his other friends than me
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Please Sir, it wasn't me, the bigger boy made me do it! Pathetic Guy, really is.

Reread your original reply to me where you state "As a child I was about as male as you could be" and then review your 'surprise'.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Guy when I went out and met people in Clubs/Bars/Restraunts with work or with friends I did not know thier sexuality. I did not say "Hello, my name is Ralph, how do you do, are you gay?"

I discovered they were gay later as I got to know them. Your assumption that all gays behave like women is badly misinformed. As I have said on earlier postings in the mob I knew gays who were very much into sports and in the gym every night.

Thet are people Guy like you and me, they just hapen to have a different private life. For me this isn't a problem as I do not care about adults private lives, because they are private. If it's any consolation to you I did meet a gay chap I did not like once but that was beacause he was a Liverpool support and kept bad mouthing my favorite football team.


There you are.
Ralph Baldwin @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I have enough time to blog as I've given up thinking about political office, hence I have a bit of time to take the fight to the socialists I detest, hence I'm here.

I'm more than happy to give the name of my gay friend, who was ONE of my "best friends" not my best friend. But that's up to him. He's also a Tory by the way.

I linked a number of studies showing gay parents are not as good as heterosexual ones. It's also a personal moral view that you aren't going to change and I'll support any government who champions traditional heterosexual parent rights and support.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Funny isn't it that when confronted with someone not buying into the pro gay arguments the left like to chuck in everyone's face it isn't long before some wit desides to use the "Those who protest the most are always the ones who turn out to be gay in the end" rubbish.

For the record monkeybrain I have a number of gay friends who I like and would defend their right to equal protection under the law free from discrimination.

They know, however, that I don't for instance want my kids given homosexual education at school and that I don't believe two gay parents to be as good as two heterosexual parents.

Personally I could say the only reason you support gays is that your one yourself? See how easy it is to take the opposite side of a stupid argument?
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
He said it not me, it came as a bit of a surprise to be honest.

Perhaps you should take it up with him?
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I was talking about typical male child behaviour in school. I know you lot would like to further feminize the education profession but fortunately it isn't going to happen.

I can say however that I never met a gay person in any of the sports teams I played in and never went clubbing or drinking with gay friends. Of course you will now no doubt come back with "or at least you thought so" which is the usual pro gay nonsense.

I didn't mix with gays and didn't want to. I had some gay friends and they were the same as anyone else and deserved the same legal rights but they knew and I knew we didn't enjoy the same social activities.

Much as you'd like to protest that everyone is equal in interests and outlook, they aren't.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Thanks again, much appreciated.
Ralph Baldwin @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I provided the Telegraph link not because it has the most information, but because it is the easiest to read. There are a number of reports on the subject available to view, and whilst they are a little more difficult to follow, they offer a much broader view. For instance, the estimates on the gay population are based on numerous surveys as the Telegraph correctly reports, but the population figures on openly gay men and women could be as high as 7%, making the the number closer to 4.2 million. Also, although Kinsey may have overestimated in 1948, he did raise the issue of homosexual tendancies in his studies and even if the numbers he estimated were halved, it would indicate that there could be as many as 14 million people in the UK with such tendancies.

Based on what I have read up to now, I believe Kinsey could well have been right with his 10% estimate, but I think he was wrong to assign that to just the male population. Had he estimated 10% of a combined male/female population, I don't think it would have been as widely dismissed.

If you search 'sexual orientation report' into your prefered search engine, it takes a lot of trawling through, but there is mountains of information available.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
His most "male" friend hahahahahahahha, oh dear. I have to admit when I am with mates none of us generally discuss who is more male, less male, more female , less female than anybody else. You have a very interesting criteria of assessment of friendship Guy.
Ralph Baldwin @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
"As a child I was about as male as you could be, playing every sport available, getting into fights and only attracted to girls."

Brilliant.

You mean "masculine" not male. Homosexuals as well as heterosexual are "male" - the word denotes biology, not behaviour.

It's interesting that you define masculinity as playing sport, fighting and being attracted to girls. I can tell you from personal experience that the former two at every level are in no way limited to heterosexuals, but even if they were - what a boring, limited and thick idea of masculinity you have - exactly like a knuckleheaded chav that on other posts you have taken care to distance yourself from. To be honest, it sounds as if you're trying to prove something, which explains a lot.


B Bendle @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Thanks Bill,

I am weak in this area and will take whatever information I can find. I will check out the link.

Cheers.
Ralph Baldwin @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Of course I will Guy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1505277/Six-per-cent-of-population-are-gay-or-lesbian-according-to-Whitehall-figures.html

A couple of very interesting paragraphs in there if you take the time to read it, such as:

"The estimate falls short of the controversial figure suggested by Dr Alfred Kinsey in his 1948 study Sexual Behaviour in the Human Male, which found that at least 10 per cent of the male population was exclusively homosexual, with up to 47 per cent having homosexual tendencies."

And another gem of information:

"The figure is published as companies compete for their share of the pink pound, with recent research showing that homosexual men and women enjoy a combined income of £60 billion."

Did you think I'd plucked the figures from thin air Guy? I have a complusion to research before I comment, may I respectfully suggest you do the same before you tell us all what the British population's opinion is on a particular subject.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Guy, we all know you're a closeted homosexual.

Those who protest the most are always the ones who turn out to be gay in the end. Just like all those US evangelicals who get caught 'foot-tapping' in men's toilets.
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Under absolutely no circumstances would I ever want my children to be put into the care of someone like you. And the majority of this country would think the same.

In fact given the gross irrational hatred you seem to have against certain groups of people, I'd question whether you should actually be allowed to be a parent full stop. If you're raising your children to be Nazis then perhaps social services should intervene.
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
How convenient that you happen to have a homosexual best friend Guy, presumably you have a few ethnic minorities as best friends as well when it suits your arguement.

Describe where I presumed you as anti-gay in my previous comments Guy? I didn't, what I refer to was your bigoted, ill-informed views based on your very limited life experience but that would have required actually reading my comment and as per usual it is too much effort to answer the question asked. When you've finished point scoring with your fictional recap of conversations that didn't happen or regaling us with tales of your high-flying life that seems to leave you without an infinite amount of time to spout rubbish on blogs, maybe you could step back into reality for a brief moment and answer how a child would be changed from the male life you describe by having gay parents?

Don't worry Guy, your comments here are masked by your chosen anonymity so I doubt any of this will effect you if you choose to change your mind about a political career. Or maybe by answering the question you would reveal that you have been less than forthcoming on your views of homosexuality.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
"I'm not going to be bound by the Equality Bill and in fact in everyday professional life I'll ignore it completely."

Excellent news. I look forward to seeing you prosecuted and then you can spend a lot of worthwhile time in those prisons you seem so fond of.
Northern Monkey @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
But they wouldn't be better - it's specifically not allowed to discriminate in that way. It's when two candidates are effectively equal, then diversity in the workplace can be taken into account.

I don't know why you keep banging on about white males, though. There's nothing in the legislation that makes it only applicable to white males - it depends on the situation in the individual workplace.
Thomas Williams @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
No, I'd prefer for a school to employ the best teacher available.

If a female teacher was better than a male teacher, I wouldn't want the school employing the male solely to even out numbers.

You really don't get this basic point over the Tory opposition to the equality bill do you? Turning ANYONE down on race, sex and age etc. is wrong, even when you wrap it up in pc language like diversity. It still discriminates against one candidate on the basis of their race or sex.

I am at a loss how the Labour party can be so full on about discrimination but thehn enact discrimination against white males.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
I wouldn't chose under any circumstanes to live with 2 gay "parents" thanks.

Being "male" I wanted the presence of my mother as much as my father. I don't see how 2 gay parents would have related to me or me to them to be honest.

As one of my best friends said when he came out, it was a far easier thing telling me (he thought it would be hard as I was the most "male" friend) as it turned out than telling his other friends. All I did was say "good on you", slapped him on the back and carried on as normal.

It's funny how you equate not wanting gay parents as being anti-gay?
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
3.6 million, so that's around 5% of the population "openly" gay? Would you care to link the proof of that?
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Is your argument that because people like you would discriminate against someone with two dads or two mums, we should therefore not have that situation occur? Surely it's more important to fight the misconception that there's something wrong with having two parents of the same gender.

Obviously the wishes of the child are paramount, I wouldn't propose placing a child with a couple they didn't want to be placed with. But if a child didn't mind (and let's face it, children are less prejudiced than adults), then there should be no problem.
J Palmer @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Not entirely sure what you consider a 'small' minority Guy, but considering there are 3.6 million openly gay people living in the UK, I should imagine by the time youu include those in the 'closet', bisexual and transgender that the numbers in the UK would be hardly what you would call 'small'.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
No Guy, your point is you haven't a clue what you are talking about. You have no clue what life in care is all about, so little that you think a child would choose it because he/she may get bullied at school. Like your views on many things, they come from limited experience and maximum ignorance.

My experience of having gay parents in wholly irrelevant, but my experience of losing my family and spending time in care homes is. I was extremely lucky as a child to be fostered and adopted by a good, honest and loving family, but I still know many people who weren't, my natural sisters for instance. At least I have some experience about what I'm talkking about, but you have neither experience of gay parents or of care homes, so you are speaking from a position with no other basis than your bigoted and small-minded views of the world.

I'm very pleased for you that you were so 'male' as a child Guy, thank you for sharing that with us all. Could you tell me how a child would be changed from this male life just by having gay parents though?
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
What's the problem with the equality bill? Since you seem so concerned about young people having gender role models, I would have thought you'd welcome a bill that would allow a school lacking men to opt for a male teacher over an equally-qualified female one in order to provide a much needed role model for the boys there.
Thomas Williams @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Care to post your experience of living with 2 gay "parents"?

Care to post your experience of explaining to your school friends why you have 2 "dads"?

As a child I was about as male as you could be, playing every sport available, getting into fights and only attracted to girls. I can say quite openly that I would have preferred care i.e. foster family etc. to adoption by a gay couple.

My point is simple, the wishes of the child are paramount and are more important than the "rights" of a gay couple.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Would you care to give us all the benefit of you extensive knowledge of care homes Guy? Or perhaps you have indepth knowledge of what it is like to lose your family and home at an early age and be introduced to communal living with a number of very unhappy children?

Please Guy, share your experience with us on this matter and qualify why a life in care is preferential to having two parents who will love and care for you.
Bill Dewison @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
In the post you replied to, care to outline where my "bigotry and discrimination" is?

Whilst you are at it, care to say why the anti-male, anti-white equality bill is ok?

As for Pride and the Londn streets, how many go and what they do is of no interest. I made a point of ensuring I wouldn't be in London again on this weekend many years back.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Thank you, Guy M.

Thank you for showing so clearly the kind of bigotry and discrimination that still affects lesbians and gay men far too often.

It's easy for us gay people, as on this Pride weekend we celebrate the still-incomplete freedoms that we have successfully fought for over the years, to forget what the face of open prejudice looks like. Usually the kind of thing we face is far more subtle!

There's an article just been posted here - "why Pride matters". I'm sure it's a good article. But, Guy, for me at least, it's very simple: Pride matters because of people like you.

You're making a defiant public stand against equalities. That's your right. But half a million queers and their friends will be taking to the streets later today to make a public gesture that is pro-equality. And that counts for a lot!
Nick Weeks @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
"Rooted in the past" Alex?

Care to argue that the Tory party won't remove the Equality bill/act from the statute books when they gain power?

Care to argue that the public supports and any government will vote for fertility treatment for Lesbians?

Care to argue that gay members of the public won't vote on mainstream issues in numbers rather than gay rights issues?

Care to argue that anti white legislation isn't racist and anti male legislation isn't sexist?

Care to argue that the gay community isn't a small minority of the country and the "activist" part of it an even smaller minority?

"Again, I'm only publishing this stuff to show that the mind of this self-professed Tory hopeful MP remains firmly, firmly rooted in the past. To me, this sort of thing is bigoted nonsense"

Yes to you Alex it is bigoted I'm sure, to most of the country calling gay rights issues a minority issue is just reality.

To the majority of the country Harman's notion of what "equality" is, is ludicrous, or didn't you see the white working class vote desert the Labour party in droves?

I wonder if you publish this post or hide away from the reality of the position it represents?

Oh by the way, I'm not a "Tory hopeful MP" as you well know. I will not apply for any political position as I can't agree to be bound by this Labour government's laws. On this issue I can say 100% I'm not going to be bound by the Equality Bill and in fact in everyday professional life I'll ignore it completely.
Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Again, I'm only publishing this stuff to show that the mind of this self-professed Tory hopeful MP remains firmly, firmly rooted in the past. To me, this sort of thing is bigoted nonsense. It's 830am on a Saturday, Guy, and you've simultaneously made me both very, very angry, and very, very proud of my party.
Alex Smith @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
"A neglected child was thought better off living in care than in a loving same-sex couple's home"

It still is better off in care and if i was in care would refuse to be placed with a gay couple. Most of my friends feel exactly the same way.

"Cameron himself has personally turned out to vote against gay adoption, against anti-hate legisation and against equality in IVF treatments."

Because gay adoption is wrong, anti-hate legislation an attack on free speech and IVF treatment for Lesbains a gross waste of NHS funding at a time when NHS budgets are pressed for mainstream life saving treatments.

"So you would think that LGBT voters would be especially grateful to Labour? Apparently not. Shocking to those of us with longer memories, polls suggest that more LGBT voters are willing to put the Conservatives back in power than want Labour to stay"

Because gay issues are a minority issue, with a minority importance and for a large number of gay professionals they aren't going to vote gay issues over the economy, jobs, education etc.

You may be fixated with gay issues and ludicrous notions of "equality" that aren't anything of the sort, the rest of the country and a large chunk of the gay minority aren't it seems. How does it feel to be irrelevant?

Labours equality bill is racist and sexist and will be removed from the statute books as soon as the Tories get into power.

Guy M @ 35 weeks and 3 days ago
Very well put. Completely to the point and also to the core matter at hand.

Excellent.
Ralph Baldwin @ 35 weeks and 4 days ago
I have never really understood why people have such a problem with anybody who LOVES another person. It all boils down to LOVE, and when you have it, it is great. Sure there is raw sex, and that can be great too. LOVE is what people really want and who has the right to say that it is wrong, no matter in which form it is in.

Life is precious and a happy life is what everybody wants.

Labour has done a good job here, and we should take pride in that.

I do think that the Tory turnaround is interesting and yet I just don’t believe them. I do think that they are the same party they where and always have been. Just look at the issue with Lord Ashcroft, look at what they intend to do on the hunting bill.

I still can’t really tell the difference between David Cameron & Nick Clegg when I listen on the radio. Am I the only one?

Anyway keep up the fight.

In Unity

MA
Mike Aistrop @ 35 weeks and 4 days ago