By Brian Barder / @BrianLB
On the always stimulating Our Kingdom website (”a conversation on the future of the United Kingdom“, part of the OpenDemocracy network) there’s an interesting if somewhat academic debate in progress about the implications for the whole of the UK of a referendum in Scotland on Scottish independence (whatever its result), and the disintegration of the United Kingdom which Scottish independence would entail. This stems from a post by Gerry Hassan, “The long march to Scotland’s independence referendum“. Gerry Hassan is a writer, researcher, policy analyst and associate at the think-tank Demos. What follows is based on my comments contributed to the debate at Our Kingdom.
For many of us the destruction by Scottish secession of the United Kingdom, or at any rate Britain, the country which for all its faults claims our loyalty and in my case, anyway, my affection, would be a tragedy for all the people of all its four constituent parts. I am English, of English, German Lutheran and Polish Jewish ancestry, but for me Scotland and Wales (and equally but in a different way Northern Ireland) are just as much part of my national heritage, ingredients in my national history and culture, as England is. Scots, Irish people and Welshmen simply aren’t foreigners in my book, and never can be, whatever constitutional changes might occur, any more than Queenslanders can be foreigners to the people of New South Wales when they are all Australians, any more than Californians can be foreigners to Vermont people when they are all Americans.
What this signifies to me is that it is now quite urgently necessary to consider possible alternatives to the break-up of the UK into its component nations, in ways that would meet most of the legitimate aspirations (and grievances) of the people of all four nations. It’s fairly clear that the distinctive identities of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, plus their common ownership of the United Kingdom, need to be translated into a new constitutional dispensation under which each of the four nations governs itself by democratic right (i.e. not by kind permission of some authority in Westminster, or anywhere else) in all their internal domestic affairs, from the criminal law to education to taxation, each – necessarily including England — with its own separate elected parliament and government (which three of the four of course already have). The four entrust to a single elected authority, comprising a separate central government and legislature, those things which they agree are best run collectively on behalf of all of them: mainly foreign affairs and defence, with collaborative arrangements for revenue allocation and some transfer of resources from the richer to the poorer areas of the kingdom. The division of powers between the four self-governing nations and the upwardly-devolved centre would be defined in a written constitution administered by a central supreme court. The dominance of England as by far the biggest and richest of the four nations, now almost unfettered except by convention, would need to be formally limited, probably by turning the House of Lords as the second chamber of the all-UK parliament into an elected ‘house of the nations’ — call it a Senate — in which all four nations have equal representation, so that English representatives on their own can never out-vote those of the other three nations.
We could call this novel arrangement “a federation“. The Australians, Germans, Americans, Canadians, Swiss and several other nationals of functioning democracies might even agree to offer us some useful tips on how to make our federation work, if we asked them nicely. It would, by the way, give Scotland virtually all the advantages of full independence with none of the disadvantages; it would answer the West Lothian question, although not in quite the way that Tam Dalyell, its distinguished author, would approve; it would cure the whole of the UK of its congenital over-centralism; it would complete the half-finished process of devolution while reversing its top-down power trajectory, and remove its present inchoate[1] anomalies. It would take at least 20 years to complete the transformation. It would be a bumpy but exhilarating ride. It would be worth the wait and the effort.
It’s hard to be sure about the reasons for the extreme reluctance of the political and media establishments even to discuss the possibility of moving to a fully federal system, despite the fact that it would solve so many problems and that the availability of a better alternative to the disintegration of our country is daily becoming more urgent. With devolution we are half-way into a federation already, and most of the serious anomalies that have resulted (encapsulated in the West Lothian question) are due to our failure to complete the process.
I suspect that a large part of the resistance to the idea of federation stems from dislike of the idea of England having its own elected parliament and government, separate from the existing Westminster parliament and government. These would automatically become the new federal institutions, much smaller and with greatly reduced powers (mainly over foreign affairs and defence). A separate English government would inevitably wield more real power, although only in England, than the downsized federal government at Westminster, not an attractive proposition for current Westminster politicians with their romantic fantasy of a Westminster parliament and executive with unlimited ’sovereign’ powers. Persuading politicians to give up their some of their powers and status is always going to be an uphill task. They should, though, take heart from the reality that the federal governments and legislatures of existing democratic federations, such as the President and Congress of the United States, enjoy far more international and even national prestige, despite their limited powers, than those of the component states that comprise their federations.
I surmise that there are at least four other major obstacles to the required all-party consensus in favour of movement to an eventual federation: (1) It’s too radical for our timid politicos; (2) It would take at least a couple of decades to complete the process, and our political leaders’ congenital short-termism prevents them from looking that far ahead; (3) There’s a cosmic ignorance in the Westminster village and among its attendant media clowns of other democratic countries’ constitutional arrangements, and a deeply ingrained reluctance to learn from them, so every problem that crops up in the course of change requires us laboriously to re-invent the wheel; and (4) The federal idea requires a capacity for a vision of a different way for the nations of the UK to govern themselves — moreover in a new and unfamiliar democratic relationship with each other; and our politicians (with a few rare exceptions) don’t do vision.
Time to wake up before it’s too late.
[1] Inchoate: “Recently started but not fully formed yet; just begun; only elementary or immature.” Unconnected with ‘incoherent‘ or ‘chaotic‘, except in (frequent) error.
Brian
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Everyone in the UK pays a certain amount of tax. However, if one sector of the UK has more government subsidies, e.g. Scotland in the form of free tuition fees etc. than other areas, a disproportionate amount of money is going there. I don't see the Scottish parliament making cuts or raising taxes in Scotland to pay for the extra free/cheaper services they get. Therefore the extra money must come from somewhere, and it comes from other parts of Britain.
I am happy for, to a small extent, money to be diverted to the areas that need it most and so on, but completely different rules in one part of the country are unacceptable.
Incidentally, though: I thought the UK was already a full, paid-up member of the EU. How a change in our internal constitutional arrangements can "make it easier" for Britain to become even more so is a little bit baffling.
"any increase (or decrease) each year in public expenditure is to be distributed evenly across the home nations, in proportion to their population at that time. Expenditure is allocated en bloc, not per-service (health, transport, etc.) and this gives the devolved executives the opportunity to reallocate funds between services to suit their needs. The formula does not reallocate existing expenditure, merely any changes made that year. (http://bit.ly/19QGIQ)"
Note that the formula is based on population, not 'need'.
However, I have now devoted so much time to responding to numerous comments here and at http://www.barder.com/ephems/2066 and at http://bit.ly/7ATq8 that I fear the time has come to hang up my keyboard, at any rate on this subject, if only for a few weeks. I have said just about everything that I need to say on this issue, here and in the other two locations (qv). I'll continue to read with either approval or indignant dissent any further comments posted here or elsewhere, but I shan't attempt to respond further to them. Time to get on with my life -- even if that means only that it's time for me to resume posting on other things. Thanks again for the kind words of appreciation: see you all again, I hope, under another post, another time.
Brian
http://www.barder.com/ephems/
Switzerland may be an exception to this - but then it is an exception in many ways. I'd happily accept their view of federalism if it also included their use of popular referenda to determine policy. (I can't imagine that many 'progressives' approve of popular and frequent referenda).
As for your version of federalism applied to the UK: I'd rather have a straight forward amicable 'divorce' and let Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland go their merry way.
Whilst I tend to disagree with virtually everything Brian says, he is a polite gracious and diligent adversary (wish I could say the same for myself ;-)
Might not always agree with Mr Barder but at least he comes back to respond to people...unlike a lot of the article posters that could be mentioned.
It seems weird to me that the media rail against the idea of a superpower EU who is empowered to have a say in our foreign policy and defence - and yet we accept that they can employ millions of expensive bureaucrats to tell us what sort of light bulbs we can use and how straight our cucumbers should be.
Something not quite right here!
If it was a federal state and as you describe, with carefully controlled, limits on it's powers constitutionally, so that it could not intefere with the internal affairs of individual countries. This is exactly what I am looking for - an EU that doesnt have a huge bureaucracy considering and determining the minuatae of how we live our daily lives. For example telling us we have to stop using a certain type of ligh bulb - when did we vote for this and how do we vote against it now?
The current system of EU government is a hugely wasteful additional layer of government and is anti democratic and must be changed. There is no accountabilty and no transparency which according to the UN Human Rights Commissioner are both requirements for democracy.
A Federal EU may be an answer which would be acceptable to me - but most fundamental of all, it would need to be explained to the electorate in a clear and simple manner and we would be allowed to decide if it was for us through a referendum - not just imposed without any real discussion.
A similar idea for the UK is a brilliant suggestion!
Brown (a scot) would therefore have lumbered scotland with a (national) debt of at least £56,000 per head (man, woman and child) - good luck paying that off with their share of the national assets...
Windfarms on every hill I think... And loch lomond used to have such beautiful natural views - and all those glens...
Blair tried to fade in EU regionalisation of England through the creation of 'regional governments' and ended being caned by the good people of the North East in a referendum who saw it for what it was, more feather bedding of Labour and Conservative time servers.
You, I fear, confuse the point that Fairfax is making which is English equals British in the minds of most of the world. The British Parliament is regularly conflated as being the English parliament by even well educated Americans.
To most of my English friends, Westminster is the English Parliament and has been for over 700 years. They often slip up when talking about the British Empire as being the English Empire / Commonwealth and if you read the Act of Union they are correct in calling it so.
We are now at a 'Through the Looking Glass' moment in UK politics and my sense is that people are no longer happy with Humpty MPs trying 'it means what I say it means' when the voters attitude is they want to be as it says on the tin.
Westminster is no longer what Humpty says it is, Strasbourg and devolution have nailed that canard. The Scots know what Holyrood is and respect the SNP because at least they act as it says on their tin. The Welsh are growing into their Assembly.
The English have: What? London run as a quasi Vaticanesque state within a state and the clowns at the north end of Westminster Bridge braying at each other while trousering hundreds of thousands of pounds and pretending England (sorry Britain) still has an empire and standing in the world.
To compound this, today, we have another Labour flip - flop over the Benbecula Ranges which looks to me as a sop to try and prop up their collapsing vote in Scotland at the cost of jobs at Aberporth as Darling will still, no doubt, be expecting the pseudo MoD quango to cut its budget by £40 million to afford the Afghan adventure.
Keep it simple - Give England and the English back their Parliament and their self respect, clear out the Welsh, Scots and Irish MPs - they are not needed and with devolution have no real function other than as lobby fodder.
Bin the House of Lords and make that the Federal Senate because if Labour and the Conservatives do not change track, swallow that Westminster as it now stands is seriously undermined, is failing, is viewed as no longer serving any real purpose to the majority it should represent - and quickly - the UK Parliamentary Union can not survive.
The SNP on 28% vote share, 80% of Scots wishing fiscal autonomy and many Scotland only polls indicating a further 25% collapse of the Labour and Libdem vote in Scotland, if the Tories look likely to gain control of Westminster in 2010, suggests we are now at a tipping point.
We need less 'Humpty' and more 'Colron' if the Union is going to hold together.
How very socialist of you...
Whether you like what I say or not, you view is just a utopian "wouldn't it be nice if..." - and only a fool would try to implement it in the real world.
However...
I have never heard anyone suggests that englishness and britishness are the same.
Quite the opposite - I think you will find that most people see that the english have completely and voluntarily suppressed englishness in favour of britishness for the sake of the union.
Now this is being thrown back in our faces.
Should we face a devolved scotland and wales, they will not be dealing with 'england' as it is now (which is basically whatever rump would happen to be left once scotland and wales are subtracted from britan) -- they will be dealing with a new england which will be a young nation prepared to use every tool at her disposal to do the best for her people (again).
However as I have alluded to - in the shorter term you should be far, far more worried about expanded devolution allowing little dictators to take control of your new states.
New socialists foolishly believe that 'the tyrany of the majority' is a *desirable* state of affairs - to impose their will on all, with no concern for the will of the minorities on which they impose. In the past it had been recognised (even by the sensible left) that such a tyranny was a risk that should be actively avoided.
But if there are powerful governments in scotland and wales I don't think it will take long before their power is usurped by petty dictators and run 'not in the public interest'.
I love Europe, but I despise the EU - I see no benefit from the EU and if we had an english parliament I would see no benefit in having a UK parliament. The English government could deal with alien states/governments directly with no additional layers of government above it.
"Whole communities" are free to do what they want, so long as they do it on their budget, which should be equitable with other regions and proportionate to their population, and provided they adhere to the same basic template as other regions, set by the government, and provide the same basic services.
Congratulations on responding to your comments though, it's more than most here do.
As for the idea of a hybrid parliament at Westminster, the house of commons becoming a parliament for England and generating one government, while the house of lords becomes the federal parliament, generating another government, I can't see any possible benefit from such a weird deviation from the normal federal pattern as practised successfully all over the western world. Apart from anything else, the embedding of the English parliament side by side with a unicameral federal parliament would perpetuate the damaging perception of England as coterminous with the UK as a whole; it would put the English government in a wholly different and more privileged relationship with the federal centre than the governments of the other three nations; and it would prevent the UK Federation from having a second chamber designed expressly to protect the interests of the constituent nations. It's ingenious, I suppose, but the practical and theoretical objections to it really rule it out.
Why didn't you just say that Brian rather than the smoke and mirror approach you have spent a good deal of time on above?
we have got it wrong on devolution , it has to be either full independence or a local assembly .
ricki
Your hypothetical scenario of a situation in which the English 80% of the population favour declaring war on an attacker when the remaining 20% of the UK population is against it, while inherently wildly improbable, is no more relevant to a federal UK than it is to our existing quasi-federal situation, or to our situation if we were a unitary state (which by the way we have never been). In a situation like that affecting the whole of the UK, how else would you resolve a national disagreement other than by reference to the wishes of the majority? It would work in a federation precisely as it works now, and as it works in the democratic federal countries of Australia, Canada, Germany, the US, and everywhere else. But the 80% English majority would be prevented from frustrating the wishes of the peoples of the other three nations as regards their own internal affairs -- their health and education systems, their criminal law, their local government systems, the electoral systems used to elect their own parliaments, how they choose to tax themselves to raise revenues for their own administration -- because the English would have no constitutional power to interfere in such matters, either through their own parliament and government or through the federal institutions. That's the very wide sense in which each nation would "control its own destiny", and it's not something to sneer at, either.
Your paranoid fear that the federal idea is just a "ruse to impose socialism on a non-socialist England" is equally wide of the mark. I have acknowledged elsewhere in this thread that in present circumstances a self-governing England electing its own parliament and government would be unlikely to give the Labour Party a majority, even supposing that the Labour Party were to be 'socialist'; in fact it's our present system, in which Labour votes in Scotland and Wales produce a Labour government and parliament with unlimited power to legislate for England, which 'impose' socialism, or at any rate New Labourism, on England, probably against the wishes of a plurality of English voters. So you have got it exactly the wrong way round. You should be campaigning to change the present system in precisely the way I recommend.
Don't you feel even the least bit worried about dismissing as 'nonsensical' the description of a system of government which demonstrably works well and equitably in some of the most successful western democracies in the world? In the whole parade, you're evidently content to assume that you're the only one marching in step.
Did you know that, as well as those living in Scotland, those living everywhere else in the EU also get free university education at Scottish universities. EXCEPT of course those living in England and Wales. Thats how democracy works in the EU.
Did you also notice how how the UN International Day of Democracy (today) has been completely ignored by our politicians - what a surprise!
Further to the english votes on english laws, non english mps's shouldn't sit in commitee dealing with these bills, nor should scottish/welsh lords vote on them either.
Just a thought.
What if we abolished the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly (perhaps not the NI one) and have one country, just the one, with a one tier system, called the United Kingdom. If Scotland wants to leave, then fine, let them, I'm all for democracy. But can we not have a system whereby different parts of the nation get far greater benefits than others (take Scotland's lack of tuition fees, cheaper elderly care, the list goes on and on).
The english identity crisis is entirely down to the fact that for centuries the english have assumed that Englishness and Britishness is one and the same. Being British is much more. I have vast pride in my country, my United Kingdom. Pride in the Scottish beef and welsh lamb, in English grain and Irish lamb. I have lived and worked in England, Northern Ireland and Wales. I believe in the union, I believe our whole is greater than the sum of our parts. Your reply stinks of arrogance, an arrogance that us 'lesser' nations are without worth and are to be treated with contempt. Fortunately yours is a minority opinion in England most people are more constructive.
If wales and scotland are to compete head to head with england (for investment, development, employment etc) rather than get the generally very generous share that they do as part of the UK then it will be a no holes barred competition, and the bulk of the residents of wales and scotland can expect to be reduced to crofting and hill farming in very short order -- while their wealthy natives become absent landlords living it up elsewhere. And I certainly wouldn't be eating any welsh lamb or scottish beef etc ever again.
My other reservation concerns the concept of "only certain powers being devolved to the Nations". As part of the move to full federation it would be axiomatic that all powers belong as of right to the constituent nations: the nations agree to delegate to the federal centre certain powers, i.e. those best exercised collectively on their behalf by the centre rather than separately by each nation, such as foreign affairs, defence, the national currency, etc. IOW, power is not graciously 'devolved' from the Westminster centre to the junior nations, to be retrieved if the centre isn't satisfied with the way they are used: certain defined and limited powers are delegated upwards by the nations to the centre. All "residual" powers not explicitly delegated to the federal centre belong as of right to the nations. The present top-down trajectory of power is reversed. This is perhaps the most important difference between our present system of partial devolution and a fully-fledged federal system.
I imagine even the Irish citizens living here will tell you what to do with that idea.
There's simply too much common history that can't be undone less than a century after they finally kicked us out. Ireland's done far better without us than with us.
I have to say I sympathise with Peter's proposition more than yours, as you appear to want to add yet another layer of government.
I don't think there would be any confusion necessarily because an English Commons wouldn't be running the FCO and MOD, or any other federal function.
Tax collection should be handled centrally but have the amount decided locally, thereby reducing the need to duplicate Treasury functions.
If the English Government has to duplicate any central function, then maybe they should duplicate it elsewhere in the regions and not pump further tax pounds into the south east. Modern communications mean the policy makers don't have to be in the same location as those implementing that policy.
The only question would be which Grace and Favour residences housed English Ministers, and which one housed Federal ones.
But really key to avoiding the Union breaking up is to call the SNPs bluff and join with them in campaigning for a referendum on Scotland's future asap, thereby siding with the concept of democracy. Hopefully pulling the rug from under Salmond's feet, because the sooner we have it, the more likely the SNP will lose.
Instead we currently have the SLP, Tories and Lib Dems seemingly wanting to fall wide eyed into every bear trap laid before them by the nats, and then constructing some of their own to jump into.
The SNP are doing well currently because they have a clever, articulate, and driven leader, competing against braying, clueless, donkeys.
What would happen if England was attacked by Ruritania (or Ruristan, more likely) and wanted to declare war, yet Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland decide that it wasn't their problem...
If each nation really "controls its own destiny" then what's the point of a Federation? New York doesn't control it's own destiny, and neither do any of the Swiss cantons.
Just admit that your idea is either half baked (or, as I said before, a ruse to impose socialism on a non-socialist England).
I see federalism as the more natural successor to devolution, considering the retention of links with Westminster and only certain powers being devolved to the Nations. Completing this means an English assembly (or we could perceivably go regional in England as an alternative balance to English numerical and economic dominance)
Ironically, this is the most clear cut answer to the West Lothian question too... A result that I'm sure doesn't please most Tories.
As Scotland and Wales break away from the UK they will mean no more to us than we do to (say) kuwait or saudi. They will just be forign countries and will be owed absolutely nothing by those they leave behind.
Plundering small countries is usually pretty straight forward, so I would plan on sucking them dry at the first opportunity.
there is not enough money to provide the infrastructure which goes to support the country. Everything from the education system to the NHS would collapse through lack of funding
They would be bankrupt within 6 months, and knocking on the door to let them back into the Union.
Well, not yet. But that is the ultimate goal of "ever closer union" - and the Lisbon (aka Constitutional) Treaty will make this goal much closer.
I am not concerned about how americans feel about states etc. I am concerned about how I am treated in the country of my birth.
I liked being a citizen of the UK - but my citizenship no longer covers Scotland - in Scotland I am second class.
If we were ever to negotiate for re-unification it would have to be from a position of strength so the stronger we can make ourselves and the weaker we can make scotland the better...
Having 80% of the electorate only having 25% of the power is a disgraceful proposition.
Whether a radical reform on the lines I propose is likely is of course another matter entirely.
Your last sentence gets it absolutely right, however, and expresses an inherently federalist sentiment.
Scotland has a third of the UK's land, so maybe they should have a third of he UK governments debts, they have a tenth of the UK's population so maybe they could have a tenth of the UK governments assets...
It makes sense for assets to be divided by population as they will have been created through past labour - it makes sense for debts to be divided by land area as land it is an absolutely finite resource so the limit on future development (to pay off the debt).
The scots know how to play the game, mouthing platitudes to the population with regard to scots independence but
brazenly taking the English pound in order to feed its masses.
Scotland knows which side its bread is buttered and it is not outside the union...
Very democratic.20% of the population dominate 80%
And what chance of that happening? Nil.
I'm sorry. This is not a serious article. Or if it is meant to be serious, it cannot be taken as such. NO-ONE in their right minds would seriously propose such a constitution as it would be totally unjust.
I would make just one comment on a federal Great Britain: it would be a splendid laboratory for political and social experimentation: experimentation in, for instance, penal reform implemented in just one nation and closely watched by the other three whose continuing systems would act as baselines, with due allowance for pre-existing differences in national practice and traditions. I hope I live to see a federal Britain up and running.
I am pretty angry about devolution - the whole land of the UK was my birthright as a Briton. But I am in no position to challenge devolution, so I accept it - but the b*stards who support it should expect nothing from me but my contempt - they have stolen part of my country, and made me a second class citizen in those parts. In return they can expect to pay the heaviest possible price whenever the opportunity arises.
I will go as far out of my way as I can to damage devolution and its supporters - Brown propping up scottish financial institutions, while dragging his heels when doing the same for english financial institutions is a financial, polticial and moral slight that england should repay in full to the scots.
I laugh when the BBC try to pretend that Andy 'I support any football team but England' Murray is presented as anything other than a through and through scot.
I'll treat every individual as I find them - but equally england should and must treat every other nation as it finds them.
It's extraordinary, if you'll forgive me for saying so, that Britons generally seem to have so little understanding of the way other western democracies govern themselves or of the reasons for the systems they have developed. It shouldn't be necessary, surely, to have to explain the purposes of a federal system when we are surrounded by excellent examples of how and why they work?
Your question whether the "French, Germans etc have any plans to reduce their influence" reflects the same confusion. Germany is a federation, with a federal constitution which protects the rights of the smaller Lander (the equivalents of our four UK nations) from being dominated by the bigger and more powerful, mainly through the federal upper house, the Bundesrat. None of that reduces the influence of Germany itself: quite the reverse. Similarly the US Senate, in which every state has the same number of Senators regardless of their population size, is a protection for small states like Vermont from being dominated by the giant states such as California and New York. Their other major protection is that under their constitution they have full control over their own internal affairs. I am simply proposing the same internal arrangements for the UK in a new federal system. Anyway, limiting one part's dominance is very different from limiting the influence of the whole.
It's true that "we" (who do you mean by "we"?) might not all like what the other UK nations would do with their autonomy in their internal affairs. But that's better than having everything decided far from ordinary people by a single almighty government at Westminster. It's called democracy: people deciding what they want at local level rather than centrally. Anyway, already with limited devolution English people might not like what the Scots are doing with their autonomy: releasing Megrahi, abolishing prescription charges... But we in England will have to get used to accepting that these Scottish matters are none of our business, and whether we like them or not is irrelevant.
Thats a good one - good luck with that.
It seems to be that the Scots may be stupid enough to believe they would be better off outside the UK, I don't think the welsh would go quite that far.
But I think most people in england would agree that if their influence within the EU is gong to be even more *reduced* then the EU it is even more reason to leave.
Do the french, germans etc have any plans to reduce their influence? Do tell...
So anyway - good luck with that... it is about as likely as labour winning the next election...
We need a strong national UK government to protect British workers from the corporate capitalism of the EU and the global conglomorates.
If we have given the Welsh, Scottish and Northen Irland there on parlimant/assembly what do the English have ? Westminster is outdated but if we go for real localism we may not like what comes out of it .
ricki
I pay 17% Corporation tax in Zug, can take the mayor to task in the local pub and vote on anything I like.
Federal is GOOD.
If you could give me the end goal that would be helpful, or should i presume what it will be?
I can't see the processes required for achieving all this taking less than 20 years. Just to get an all-party consensus on the principle of federation would take several years, and there would have to be at least one Royal Commission, a constitutional convention for England and another for the UK as a whole, and several referendums. The federal constitution would have to be drafted, debated and approved: ditto the constitutions for each of the four nations. But once the ultimate goal was agreed and a majority of people in all four nations began to work towards it, the political and constitutional climate would change very quickly. Of course revenue allocations and oil and subsidies and the rest would pose extremely difficult questions, but they will pose them whether or not we can all agree to move towards a federal solution: and a federation would include the institutional machinery for working them out by agreement.
It seems to me that the logic of our present anomalous and messy situation points unmistakably to the need for a full federation, however long it takes: and that no other solution will tick all the boxes. But I'm not holding my breath!
Brian
http://www.barder.com/ephems/
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Britain_Bill
...the real question is surely whether Ireland be tempted to join...making it the Commonwealth of the Isles.
Surely if we started devoloution then the next stage is independence?
ricki ( not quite got hold of long words yet sorry )
Was that this one?
http://www.labourlist.org/why_stop_at_devolution_peter_thomson
I never saw a second but can't see that comment anywhere in this...?
A
The English do not know what they are or where they stand; Westminster is no longer the centre for UK politics for the Welsh and the Scots, the City is no longer the major driver of the UK economy as the constituent parts become aware what is good for London is not necessarily good for them, the English appear no longer in control of their national destiny as more and more powers they thought were theirs appear to leach to the EU and yet Scottish and Welsh MP’s can influence how their country is run.
So we have the arguments of who subsidises who, should the Scots take all taxation from the Scottish North Sea oil and gas sector, can England survive without the excess of energy in all forms Scotland can generate, just how will the SE survive in twenty years time with out access to Scotland’s surplus of fresh water? People take entrenched views and the politics of division, so long practised in Westminster, work to take advantage for their own electoral benefit while pretending unity is the key - as epitomised by the rise of UKIP and the BNP
I have a possible answer – give Westminster back to the people of England; if the Union is to survive then the House of Lords must be reformed into an elected senate on a proportional or STV basis, funded on a per capita, per nation and region with an in built majority of English representatives reflecting the population of these islands. This body will have oversight and control of all agreed UK joint interests – Defence, Foreign Relations, The UN and the EU for example."
Its not rocket science but it means that the civil service at Westminster will have to stop pretending it is still running the British Empire and the three main parties will have to give up on their self appointed hegemony of running the UK as a club.
Personally 20 years will be too long a time span without a reformed Westminster as with in five years from 2010 Scotland will be gone with the finger firmly pointing at a Nu Labour Party who thought they could micromanage the Scots through a tame Holyrood, the way they have manipulated Westminster.
Westminster as being essential to UK politics has had its day.