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The threat of UK disintegration: time for a federal alternative

Map UKBy Brian Barder / @BrianLB

On the always stimulating Our Kingdom website (”a conversation on the future of the United Kingdom“, part of the OpenDemocracy network) there’s an interesting if somewhat academic debate in progress about the implications for the whole of the UK of a referendum in Scotland on Scottish independence (whatever its result), and the disintegration of the United Kingdom which Scottish independence would entail.  This stems from a post by Gerry Hassan, “The long march to Scotland’s independence referendum.  Gerry Hassan is a writer, researcher, policy analyst and associate at the think-tank Demos.  What follows is based on my comments contributed to the debate at Our Kingdom.

For many of us the destruction by Scottish secession of the United Kingdom, or at any rate Britain, the country which for all its faults claims our loyalty and in my case, anyway, my affection, would be a tragedy for all the people of all its four constituent parts.  I am English, of English, German Lutheran and Polish Jewish ancestry, but for me Scotland and Wales (and equally but in a different way Northern Ireland) are just as much part of my national heritage, ingredients in my national history and culture, as England is.  Scots, Irish people and Welshmen simply aren’t foreigners in my book, and never can be, whatever constitutional changes might occur, any more than Queenslanders can be foreigners to the people of New South Wales when they are all Australians, any more than Californians can be foreigners to Vermont people when they are all Americans.

What this signifies to me is that it is now quite urgently necessary to consider possible alternatives to the break-up of the UK into its component nations, in ways that would meet most of the legitimate aspirations (and grievances) of the people of all four nations.  It’s fairly clear that the distinctive identities of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, plus their common ownership of the United Kingdom, need to be translated into a new constitutional dispensation under which each of the four nations governs itself by democratic right (i.e. not by kind permission of some authority in Westminster, or anywhere else) in all their internal domestic affairs, from the criminal law to education to taxation, each – necessarily including England — with its own separate elected parliament and government (which three of the four of course already have).  The four entrust to a single elected authority, comprising a separate central government and legislature, those things which they agree are best run collectively on behalf of all of them:  mainly foreign affairs and defence, with collaborative arrangements for revenue allocation and some transfer of resources from the richer to the poorer areas of the kingdom.   The division of powers between the four self-governing nations and the upwardly-devolved centre would be defined in a written constitution administered by a central supreme court.  The dominance of England as by far the biggest and richest of the four nations, now almost unfettered except by convention, would need to be formally limited, probably by turning the House of Lords as the second chamber of the all-UK parliament into an elected ‘house of the nations’ — call it a Senate — in which all four nations have equal representation, so that English representatives on their own can never out-vote those of the other three nations.

We could call this novel arrangement “a federation“.  The Australians, Germans, Americans, Canadians, Swiss and several other nationals of functioning democracies might even agree to offer us some useful tips on how to make our federation work, if we asked them nicely.  It would, by the way, give Scotland virtually all the advantages of full independence with none of the disadvantages;  it would answer the West Lothian question, although not in quite the way that Tam Dalyell, its distinguished author, would approve;  it would cure the whole of the UK of its congenital over-centralism;  it would complete the half-finished process of devolution while reversing its top-down power trajectory, and remove its present inchoate[1] anomalies.  It would take at least 20 years to complete the transformation.  It would be a bumpy but exhilarating ride.  It would be worth the wait and the effort.

It’s hard to be sure about the reasons for the extreme reluctance of the political and media establishments even to discuss the possibility of moving to a fully federal system, despite the fact that it would solve so many problems and that the availability of a better alternative to the disintegration of our country is daily becoming more urgent.  With devolution we are half-way into a federation already, and most of the serious anomalies that have resulted (encapsulated in the West Lothian question) are due to our failure to complete the process.

I suspect that a large part of the resistance to the idea of federation stems from dislike of the idea of England having its own elected parliament and government, separate from the existing Westminster parliament and government.  These would automatically become the new federal institutions, much smaller and with greatly reduced powers (mainly over foreign affairs and defence).  A separate English government would inevitably wield more real power, although only in England, than the downsized federal government at Westminster, not an attractive proposition for current Westminster politicians with their romantic fantasy of a Westminster parliament and executive with unlimited ’sovereign’ powers.  Persuading politicians to give up their some of their powers and  status is always going to be an uphill task.  They should, though, take heart from the reality that the federal governments and legislatures of existing democratic federations, such as the President and Congress of the United States, enjoy far more international and even national prestige, despite their limited powers, than those of the component states that comprise their federations.

I surmise that there are at least four other major obstacles to the required all-party consensus in favour of movement to an eventual federation:  (1) It’s too radical for our timid politicos;  (2)  It would take at least a couple of decades to complete the process, and our political leaders’ congenital short-termism prevents them from looking that far ahead;  (3) There’s a cosmic ignorance in the Westminster village and among its attendant media clowns of other democratic countries’ constitutional arrangements, and a deeply ingrained reluctance to learn from them, so every problem that crops up in the course of change requires us laboriously to re-invent the wheel;  and (4) The federal idea requires a capacity for a vision of a different way for the nations of the UK to govern themselves — moreover in a new and unfamiliar democratic relationship with each other;  and our politicians (with a few rare exceptions) don’t do vision.

Time to wake up before it’s too late.

[1] Inchoate: “Recently started but not fully formed yet; just begun; only elementary or immature.”  Unconnected with ‘incoherent‘ or ‘chaotic‘, except in (frequent) error.

Brian

Posted on Sep 13, 2009 at 07:52pm

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Alun, I am not suggesting that the English pay for everything, and of course I acknowledge that the Welsh, Scottish, and Norther Irish pay taxes too. However, you cannot deny that a disproportionate amount of money is being spent on Scotland at the moment.

Everyone in the UK pays a certain amount of tax. However, if one sector of the UK has more government subsidies, e.g. Scotland in the form of free tuition fees etc. than other areas, a disproportionate amount of money is going there. I don't see the Scottish parliament making cuts or raising taxes in Scotland to pay for the extra free/cheaper services they get. Therefore the extra money must come from somewhere, and it comes from other parts of Britain.

I am happy for, to a small extent, money to be diverted to the areas that need it most and so on, but completely different rules in one part of the country are unacceptable.
Michael White @ 20 weeks and 2 days ago
I find it slightly annoying when reading posts on these issues that everyone assumes that the English are paying for everything, a bit like some over-indulgent parent. In the UK taxes are payed by everyone, English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh; they are paid by Welshmen living and working in England, Scots living and working in Wales and Englishmen living and working in Scotland. All those taxes paid by people living and working all over the UK make up the tax pot. Some of that pot goes to the devolved assemblies to spent as they choose. The money the goes to Wales and Scotland, and I want to make this very clear, would go to them WHETHER OR NOT a devolved assembly existed. Before devolution that money was spent by the respective ministries and spending would be controlled by the minister. Now take a look at John Redwood and ask yourself why devolution was so appealing to the Welsh, a man in charge of our country who did not even represent a Welsh constituency. Therefore, devolution was about making sure that the people who spend the money in Wales are accountable to people who live in Wales (n.b not all the people in Wales are Welsh)through an elected body. So before you rant on about subsidising Scottish tuition fees think about the fact that there is not any more money going to Scotland than before its merely being spent the way the Scots want it to be spent. Also, before I get the 'but they are getting something I'm not' rant have a think about what the Scots are not getting in order to pay for it. I do not claim to know the answer, but here is an example from my country. The Welsh assembly recently abolished car parking charges at all its hospitals, a popular measure you would think, but not if realise those revenues have now disappeared from the health budget. Taxpayers are not subsidising free car parking the health service is. The situation has not changed in relation to where money is spent since devolution its just actually more open you can see the anomalies more clearly. The big difference is the confidence both the Scottish and Welsh assemblies now have in dealing with their own affairs, confidence to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes. So, you ask, why can't England have piece of that, well you can and thats what Brian's article was all about.
Alun Lloyd @ 20 weeks and 4 days ago
Peter, I have spelled out elsewhere the insuperable objections to what you propose in relation to the Westminster parliament. That parliament has not been an English parliament, elected solely by English voters, and legislating solely for English affairs, certainly since 1707, and if you take Wales into account, for many years before that. The other three UK nations now have their own national parliaments and governments: England alone does not. This constitutes a massive imbalance in our whole constitutional framework and entails numerous anomalies and injustices, causing widespread discontent, even anger. It's time to correct the imbalance by moving to a full federal system of the kind exhaustively discussed in my post and the comments on it here. A federal system calls for (among many other things) a bicameral federal parliament, both chambers of which are elected from the whole of the UK. It would be a fairly straightforward step to have the existing Westminster parliament playing that role. To turn the Westminster parliament into an English parliament would entail a complete change in the basis of the electoral system and the composition of both houses, as well as the creation somewhere else in the UK of a brand new federal two-chamber parliament. Anyone proposing such a perverse and unnecessary role-swop would be thought deranged -- probably rightly.
Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 5 days ago
None of this has the remotest connection with Britain's membership of the EU, still less with any decision to adopt or not to adopt the Euro. It's extraordinary the way some people's obsessive antipathy to all things continental-European causes them to view every issue on any subject through the distorting lens of their Europhobia. It reminds me of the fiercely nationalistic Poles, who were delighted a few years ago when Polish television began to broadcast a soap opera produced originally somewhere in Latin America and concerned exclusively with local Latin American affairs: the Poles spoke admiringly of the remarkable understanding of Poland displayed by the producers of a programme which they saw as being obviously a parable about Poland and its history.

Incidentally, though: I thought the UK was already a full, paid-up member of the EU. How a change in our internal constitutional arrangements can "make it easier" for Britain to become even more so is a little bit baffling.

Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 5 days ago
George, there are plenty of good answers to what you say about the EU, but they have no place in this particular thread. As for the need to explain the implications of the change to a federal system for the UK itself, and for the change to be approved by a referendum of all the people of the UK, of course I entirely agree. I envisage that there would need to be at least one and more likely two Constitutional Conventions, probably two Royal Commissions, extensive debate in all the parliaments and the media at all stages, and at least five referendums (one on the new constitution of each of the four nations and one on the new federal constitution of the whole UK), all these spread over a minimum of two decades. The whole process would need initially to secure the support in principle of the principal UK political parties, a process which itself would take several years, even given inspired non-partisan leadership (which is currently in short supply). It would inevitably be vigorously opposed by the SNP, which would rightly perceive it as undermining both the case and the demand for Scottish independence. It's hard to predict how it would be seen by either of the principal parties in Northern Ireland. I would expect Plaid Cymru in Wales and all but the most rabid and narrow English nationalists to welcome it.
Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 5 days ago
Michael, I think your comment is inconsistent with the revenue and expenditure allocation arrangements between the UK and the four nations. Under devolution decisions on how Scotland chooses to spend its available funds -- whether on free university tuition for Scots, free presriptions, or whatever -- are entirely for the Scots to decide. Scotland receives no extra funding from the rest of the UK to pay for these things. The same thing would apply in spades under a federal system. Scotland's share of UK revenues is determined by a fixed formula, the Barnett formula, which takes no account of how the Scots choose to spend whatever they get. Whether the formula is 'fair' is a different question, but when you take into account the UK's revenues from what might be considered Scotland's oil, it's not self-evident that the formula is unduly generous towards Scotland: many Scots argue that it actually discriminates against them. Essentially, --
"any increase (or decrease) each year in public expenditure is to be distributed evenly across the home nations, in proportion to their population at that time. Expenditure is allocated en bloc, not per-service (health, transport, etc.) and this gives the devolved executives the opportunity to reallocate funds between services to suit their needs. The formula does not reallocate existing expenditure, merely any changes made that year. (http://bit.ly/19QGIQ)"

Note that the formula is based on population, not 'need'.

Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 5 days ago
I very much appreciate these kind remarks. Thank you. I have to say that with some of my posts now appearing on three different websites, all apparently read by highly articulate and well-read critics with fingers poised over their keyboards, it would be impossible for me to attempt to respond to all the more serious (or wrong-headed) comments if it weren't for the fact that I'm retired, I'm happily married to an excellent cook and household manager, my children are grown up and have left home long since, and so I have nothing better to do!

However, I have now devoted so much time to responding to numerous comments here and at http://www.barder.com/ephems/2066 and at http://bit.ly/7ATq8 that I fear the time has come to hang up my keyboard, at any rate on this subject, if only for a few weeks. I have said just about everything that I need to say on this issue, here and in the other two locations (qv). I'll continue to read with either approval or indignant dissent any further comments posted here or elsewhere, but I shan't attempt to respond further to them. Time to get on with my life -- even if that means only that it's time for me to resume posting on other things. Thanks again for the kind words of appreciation: see you all again, I hope, under another post, another time.

Brian

http://www.barder.com/ephems/

Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 5 days ago
We'll have to disagree, Brian. The system you describe works well for states that have generally the same demographic composition (US, Australia) but less well for states/countries that are identified predominantly by their ethic/national composition (e.g. Canada/Quebec).

Switzerland may be an exception to this - but then it is an exception in many ways. I'd happily accept their view of federalism if it also included their use of popular referenda to determine policy. (I can't imagine that many 'progressives' approve of popular and frequent referenda).

As for your version of federalism applied to the UK: I'd rather have a straight forward amicable 'divorce' and let Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland go their merry way.
Max Sceptic @ 20 weeks and 5 days ago
I second (third?) this comment.

Whilst I tend to disagree with virtually everything Brian says, he is a polite gracious and diligent adversary (wish I could say the same for myself ;-)
Max Sceptic @ 20 weeks and 5 days ago
I agree - well said.

Might not always agree with Mr Barder but at least he comes back to respond to people...unlike a lot of the article posters that could be mentioned.
Gordon Brown-Nose @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
I also like the idea of federal having read Brian's blog. But I fear it is too democratic for our politicians! And I would be happier if the EU was a federal state.

It seems weird to me that the media rail against the idea of a superpower EU who is empowered to have a say in our foreign policy and defence - and yet we accept that they can employ millions of expensive bureaucrats to tell us what sort of light bulbs we can use and how straight our cucumbers should be.

Something not quite right here!
George Woodhouse @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
As an aside to this blog's subject matter - what a delight to see the author responding to every valid criticism posted. I would love to see more of this from the others. Well done Brian.
George Woodhouse @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Brian - and you have clarified exactly what the pro0blem is with the EU. i.e That is that it is not a federal state. It is a bodge of all sorts of political ideas, badly thought through, and with the odd sop to the electorate so they can call it democratic - which of course it is not!

If it was a federal state and as you describe, with carefully controlled, limits on it's powers constitutionally, so that it could not intefere with the internal affairs of individual countries. This is exactly what I am looking for - an EU that doesnt have a huge bureaucracy considering and determining the minuatae of how we live our daily lives. For example telling us we have to stop using a certain type of ligh bulb - when did we vote for this and how do we vote against it now?

The current system of EU government is a hugely wasteful additional layer of government and is anti democratic and must be changed. There is no accountabilty and no transparency which according to the UN Human Rights Commissioner are both requirements for democracy.

A Federal EU may be an answer which would be acceptable to me - but most fundamental of all, it would need to be explained to the electorate in a clear and simple manner and we would be allowed to decide if it was for us through a referendum - not just imposed without any real discussion.

A similar idea for the UK is a brilliant suggestion!
George Woodhouse @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
The divorce settlement is yet to be considered, but I think scotland getting 1/3rd of the national debt (to reflect its share of the land mass) and 1/10th of national assets (to reflect it share of the population) may be a very generous staring point.

Brown (a scot) would therefore have lumbered scotland with a (national) debt of at least £56,000 per head (man, woman and child) - good luck paying that off with their share of the national assets...

Windfarms on every hill I think... And loch lomond used to have such beautiful natural views - and all those glens...
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Brian your suggestion is a dog's dinner with no clear establishment of Westminster Parliament's role.

Blair tried to fade in EU regionalisation of England through the creation of 'regional governments' and ended being caned by the good people of the North East in a referendum who saw it for what it was, more feather bedding of Labour and Conservative time servers.

You, I fear, confuse the point that Fairfax is making which is English equals British in the minds of most of the world. The British Parliament is regularly conflated as being the English parliament by even well educated Americans.

To most of my English friends, Westminster is the English Parliament and has been for over 700 years. They often slip up when talking about the British Empire as being the English Empire / Commonwealth and if you read the Act of Union they are correct in calling it so.

We are now at a 'Through the Looking Glass' moment in UK politics and my sense is that people are no longer happy with Humpty MPs trying 'it means what I say it means' when the voters attitude is they want to be as it says on the tin.

Westminster is no longer what Humpty says it is, Strasbourg and devolution have nailed that canard. The Scots know what Holyrood is and respect the SNP because at least they act as it says on their tin. The Welsh are growing into their Assembly.

The English have: What? London run as a quasi Vaticanesque state within a state and the clowns at the north end of Westminster Bridge braying at each other while trousering hundreds of thousands of pounds and pretending England (sorry Britain) still has an empire and standing in the world.

To compound this, today, we have another Labour flip - flop over the Benbecula Ranges which looks to me as a sop to try and prop up their collapsing vote in Scotland at the cost of jobs at Aberporth as Darling will still, no doubt, be expecting the pseudo MoD quango to cut its budget by £40 million to afford the Afghan adventure.

Keep it simple - Give England and the English back their Parliament and their self respect, clear out the Welsh, Scots and Irish MPs - they are not needed and with devolution have no real function other than as lobby fodder.

Bin the House of Lords and make that the Federal Senate because if Labour and the Conservatives do not change track, swallow that Westminster as it now stands is seriously undermined, is failing, is viewed as no longer serving any real purpose to the majority it should represent - and quickly - the UK Parliamentary Union can not survive.

The SNP on 28% vote share, 80% of Scots wishing fiscal autonomy and many Scotland only polls indicating a further 25% collapse of the Labour and Libdem vote in Scotland, if the Tories look likely to gain control of Westminster in 2010, suggests we are now at a tipping point.

We need less 'Humpty' and more 'Colron' if the Union is going to hold together.
Peter Thomson @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Slow down - the scots chose to uniquely penalise the english (against all other eu nationals), and you are having a go at me?

How very socialist of you...

Whether you like what I say or not, you view is just a utopian "wouldn't it be nice if..." - and only a fool would try to implement it in the real world.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
I don't understand why my valuation of your nations worth matters to you - you are incorrect in your statement, but still, if you don't agree then what do you care what I think?

However...

I have never heard anyone suggests that englishness and britishness are the same.

Quite the opposite - I think you will find that most people see that the english have completely and voluntarily suppressed englishness in favour of britishness for the sake of the union.

Now this is being thrown back in our faces.

Should we face a devolved scotland and wales, they will not be dealing with 'england' as it is now (which is basically whatever rump would happen to be left once scotland and wales are subtracted from britan) -- they will be dealing with a new england which will be a young nation prepared to use every tool at her disposal to do the best for her people (again).

However as I have alluded to - in the shorter term you should be far, far more worried about expanded devolution allowing little dictators to take control of your new states.

New socialists foolishly believe that 'the tyrany of the majority' is a *desirable* state of affairs - to impose their will on all, with no concern for the will of the minorities on which they impose. In the past it had been recognised (even by the sensible left) that such a tyranny was a risk that should be actively avoided.

But if there are powerful governments in scotland and wales I don't think it will take long before their power is usurped by petty dictators and run 'not in the public interest'.

I love Europe, but I despise the EU - I see no benefit from the EU and if we had an english parliament I would see no benefit in having a UK parliament. The English government could deal with alien states/governments directly with no additional layers of government above it.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
I don't think torytroll is implying that we should try to "dominate" Scotland, more that we should be on a level footing. Scotland should have the same basic provisions as other parts of the UK. It should not have far cheaper university access, care for the elderly etc which result in a disproportionate amount of funds being diverted to Scotland to pay for these things.
Michael White @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Exactly the point I was trying to make. As I say above, I'm all for Scottish/regional freedom of choice, but such significant differentiation as to choose whether or not students pay tuition fees should not be allowed, and each region should be allowed only to make choices within its own, proportionate budget.
Michael White @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Brian, I don't necessarily want uniformity in all things across the UK, far from it. However, I do not believe that we should have a multi-tiered system within the country whereby people born in certain parts of it gain financial/educational/other advantages. I am very happy for the Scottish to make their own decisions on what to do in their country through the election of county councils and so on, and if necessary independence. Furthermore, I disagree that I, and Englishman, should have to pay taxes towards giving Scottish people free university tuition fees. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for free access to university, but this should be nationwide, not restricted to Scotland and funded by me.

"Whole communities" are free to do what they want, so long as they do it on their budget, which should be equitable with other regions and proportionate to their population, and provided they adhere to the same basic template as other regions, set by the government, and provide the same basic services.

Congratulations on responding to your comments though, it's more than most here do.
Michael White @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
No, a federal system wouldn't "add yet another layer of government" to what we have already: three out of four of the UK nations already have their own 'layer' of government in the form of their own parliaments and governments. All that would be added by completing the half-finished federal project would be a corresponding parliament and government for England, as part of the existing layer. Both these could well be relatively small, and the transformation of the present Westminster organs (the house of commons and the house of lords) into the UK's federal institutions, with very much more limited powers than they enjoy at present, would mean that they could both be a small fraction of their present bloated sizes. The result, even with the creation of a parliament and government for England, could easily be a net reduction in the overall numbers of ministers and parliamentarians, not an increase.

As for the idea of a hybrid parliament at Westminster, the house of commons becoming a parliament for England and generating one government, while the house of lords becomes the federal parliament, generating another government, I can't see any possible benefit from such a weird deviation from the normal federal pattern as practised successfully all over the western world. Apart from anything else, the embedding of the English parliament side by side with a unicameral federal parliament would perpetuate the damaging perception of England as coterminous with the UK as a whole; it would put the English government in a wholly different and more privileged relationship with the federal centre than the governments of the other three nations; and it would prevent the UK Federation from having a second chamber designed expressly to protect the interests of the constituent nations. It's ingenious, I suppose, but the practical and theoretical objections to it really rule it out.

Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
(1) The EU is not a super-state. It isn't any kind of state, super- or otherwise. Nor are its principal members even remotely likely to allow it to become one. (2) Asserting that fear of what the EU might one day become is somehow relevant to the way we in the UK choose to govern ourselves doesn't make it so. It simply isn't. If you want to bang on about the nightmare scenarios you have dreamed up for the future development of the great and exhilarating European enterprise, warts and all, why don't you write an article about them for Labour List, instead of clogging up the discussion here of completely different and wholly unrelated questions?
Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Ah, okay. I understand now. So basically by making the UK a democratic federal union it will make it easier to integrate into the European Union and adopt the Euro.

Why didn't you just say that Brian rather than the smoke and mirror approach you have spent a good deal of time on above?
Bill Dewison @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Hi again

we have got it wrong on devolution , it has to be either full independence or a local assembly .

ricki
ricki lake @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
'Max', or whatever your real name is, I welcome your hilarious comment, which once again betrays a deep misunderstanding of the nature of federalism. In federal affairs such as foreign affairs and defence (plus some others) the federal government and parliament represent the people of the UK as a whole, who in turn elect them as UK citizens, not as Scots or Englishmen and Englishwomen. To the extent that federal legislation in its limited fields might affect the specific interests of the smaller UK nations (i.e. those other than England), their interests would be protected by their equal representation in the second chamber of the federal parliament, which would prevent those elected in England from steam-rollering it through against the opposition of the rest.

Your hypothetical scenario of a situation in which the English 80% of the population favour declaring war on an attacker when the remaining 20% of the UK population is against it, while inherently wildly improbable, is no more relevant to a federal UK than it is to our existing quasi-federal situation, or to our situation if we were a unitary state (which by the way we have never been). In a situation like that affecting the whole of the UK, how else would you resolve a national disagreement other than by reference to the wishes of the majority? It would work in a federation precisely as it works now, and as it works in the democratic federal countries of Australia, Canada, Germany, the US, and everywhere else. But the 80% English majority would be prevented from frustrating the wishes of the peoples of the other three nations as regards their own internal affairs -- their health and education systems, their criminal law, their local government systems, the electoral systems used to elect their own parliaments, how they choose to tax themselves to raise revenues for their own administration -- because the English would have no constitutional power to interfere in such matters, either through their own parliament and government or through the federal institutions. That's the very wide sense in which each nation would "control its own destiny", and it's not something to sneer at, either.

Your paranoid fear that the federal idea is just a "ruse to impose socialism on a non-socialist England" is equally wide of the mark. I have acknowledged elsewhere in this thread that in present circumstances a self-governing England electing its own parliament and government would be unlikely to give the Labour Party a majority, even supposing that the Labour Party were to be 'socialist'; in fact it's our present system, in which Labour votes in Scotland and Wales produce a Labour government and parliament with unlimited power to legislate for England, which 'impose' socialism, or at any rate New Labourism, on England, probably against the wishes of a plurality of English voters. So you have got it exactly the wrong way round. You should be campaigning to change the present system in precisely the way I recommend.

Don't you feel even the least bit worried about dismissing as 'nonsensical' the description of a system of government which demonstrably works well and equitably in some of the most successful western democracies in the world? In the whole parade, you're evidently content to assume that you're the only one marching in step.

Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Of course they do Michael. I have no problem with that. While we are all part of the same nation we should expect the resources of all the countries therein to ensure that we all enjoy the same benefits. What really gets to me is where the Scots have unfair advantages with no prescription fees, no charges for hospital parking, free care of the elderly, free university education - and yet we in England have to pay.

Did you know that, as well as those living in Scotland, those living everywhere else in the EU also get free university education at Scottish universities. EXCEPT of course those living in England and Wales. Thats how democracy works in the EU.

Did you also notice how how the UN International Day of Democracy (today) has been completely ignored by our politicians - what a surprise!
George Woodhouse @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Don't you think that the Scots have a point about Scotland's right to Scottish North Sea oil and its proceeds? The idea that Scotland is dependent on English largesse for its relative prosperity is not self-evidently correct, whether or not detailed economic analysis would confirm it. In any case, since by any measurement Scotland is considerably poorer than England, some redistribution in Scotland's favour is obviously right and necessary.
Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
What a very sad comment! And how chacteristically Tory! With such a mean and spiteful attitude to Scotland and to those of your fellow-countrymen who live there, it's no wonder that you feel like a second class citizen when in Scotland, and no wonder that you shelter behind anonymity in expressing it. Some of us prefer to celebrate the freedom of the Scots to run their own affairs -- some of their own affairs, anyway -- free from interference and dictation from outside Scotland, rather than resenting it. Now the need is to extend and institutionalise that freedom, certainly not to abolish it. The wish to be "strong" and to make Scotland "weak" so as to be able to dominate it again, almost, but not quite, passes belief.
Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Personally I prefer England only days in westminster.

Further to the english votes on english laws, non english mps's shouldn't sit in commitee dealing with these bills, nor should scottish/welsh lords vote on them either.


Just a thought.

Jonathan Campbell @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Alun, a magnificent demolition job on the ungenerous, mean-minded offering of the self-confessed Tory. You have said it all.
Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Alun, thank you for a splendid comment: I agree with every word. In particular I entirely agree that 'federal' has become a dirty word in British politics because of its ignorant misuse by Europhobes, who constantly denounce the 'federalist' tendencies of the European Union when what they mean is the opposite of federalist, i.e. centralising or integrationist. Those who fear that any significant constitutional change will lead to the abolition of the monarchy don't seem to have much confidence in the durability or popularity of that institution, which is of course fully compatible with a federal system, as (e.g.) Australia and Canada demonstrate. Whether its survival is actually desirable is another issue altogether. But this kind of delusional fear is yet another obstacle to clear-sighted discussion of the benefits of a federal relationship between the UK's four nations and between the nations and the country as a whole -- as you rightly say.
Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Resentment of the policy choices of the elected (minority) Scottish government, approved by Scotland's elected parliament, because these choices are different from the choices of other parts of the United Kingdom, demonstrates a revealing attachment to the centralised imposition of uniformity on the whole country, whether whole communities of people like it or not. You claim to be "all for democracy", but the views you express don't bear out the claim. Centralisation has been one of the banes of Britain for years; it has resulted in a real threat of the disintegration of our country, which cries out for remedy. To attempt flippancy in place of a reasoned response to this strikes me as a good deal less than admirable; certainly out of place here.
Brian Barder @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
But they still get English money, right?
Michael White @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
Great! Let's have even more devolution and give the Scots even more disproportionate power! Sounds fun. But how about another alternative?

What if we abolished the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly (perhaps not the NI one) and have one country, just the one, with a one tier system, called the United Kingdom. If Scotland wants to leave, then fine, let them, I'm all for democracy. But can we not have a system whereby different parts of the nation get far greater benefits than others (take Scotland's lack of tuition fees, cheaper elderly care, the list goes on and on).
Michael White @ 20 weeks and 6 days ago
You appear to be labouring under the delusion that I support the break up of the union. The Welsh in particular have no desire to leave the union, no-one is pushing for independence not even Plaid.
The english identity crisis is entirely down to the fact that for centuries the english have assumed that Englishness and Britishness is one and the same. Being British is much more. I have vast pride in my country, my United Kingdom. Pride in the Scottish beef and welsh lamb, in English grain and Irish lamb. I have lived and worked in England, Northern Ireland and Wales. I believe in the union, I believe our whole is greater than the sum of our parts. Your reply stinks of arrogance, an arrogance that us 'lesser' nations are without worth and are to be treated with contempt. Fortunately yours is a minority opinion in England most people are more constructive.
Alun Lloyd @ 21 weeks ago
Any English identity crisis is entirely down to the english having knocked themselves out to make the union work, while many of the welsh and scots have been knocking themselves out to break it.

If wales and scotland are to compete head to head with england (for investment, development, employment etc) rather than get the generally very generous share that they do as part of the UK then it will be a no holes barred competition, and the bulk of the residents of wales and scotland can expect to be reduced to crofting and hill farming in very short order -- while their wealthy natives become absent landlords living it up elsewhere. And I certainly wouldn't be eating any welsh lamb or scottish beef etc ever again.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 21 weeks ago
The unfortunate side effect of devolution, which I, a welshman, have supported, is the increased prominence of the West Lothian question and also the surprising identity crisis of the English. Apart from the ridiculous 'we're an oppressed minority' posturing of some crackpots, there is a legitimate cause for concern and I agree with you, Brian, that its a mess that needs to be sorted out before the union breaks up and we are all worse off. I see only two solutions, firstly to abandon devolution altogether or push on to the next stage, ie., your federal model. Devolution was the result of the English Conservative Governments scorch earth policies of the 80's, systematically tearing down the industrial communities of Scotland and Wales and cutting them adrift. They conducted policy experiments on the Scots and showed their contempt for the Welsh by sending us John Redwood. Rolling back devolution is not something the people of either nation would support. I like your proposals. Some of the contributors have appeared to miss the point that a federal UK would mean that England does have its own parliament and thus control over all its internal affairs. I would like to add my obstacles to the four you mentioned; 1)A federal Uk in some peoples minds would be a first step towards absorbtion into a federal Europe with all its horrors, like the Euro and sausages with actual meat in them; and 2) again in some eyes, may lead to the abolition of the monarchy. Both of these scenarios are ones I can see used as scare tactics by opponents. My own feelings are that these are possible benefits.
Alun Lloyd @ 21 weeks ago
Legitimate and sensible concerns about the encroaching EU super-state are not 'paranoia". Furthermore, these concerns are pertinent to any discussion about a 'federal' UK.
Max Sceptic @ 21 weeks ago
Paranoia about what the EU might become at some time in the future, against all the evidence and all political reality, is really totally irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Could we save it up for another occasion?
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks ago
I agree with most of this, except that I don't think England would ever consent to being dismembered into regions (few if any of which have a 'national' identity comparable to that of Wales or Scotland) simply to satisfy some theoretical demand for equality among the units of the federation. There are massive inequalities of size and resources as between the biggest and smallest states of the US, as of Australia's, but their federal systems work well because in a federal system you can programme in safeguards for the smaller units.

My other reservation concerns the concept of "only certain powers being devolved to the Nations". As part of the move to full federation it would be axiomatic that all powers belong as of right to the constituent nations: the nations agree to delegate to the federal centre certain powers, i.e. those best exercised collectively on their behalf by the centre rather than separately by each nation, such as foreign affairs, defence, the national currency, etc. IOW, power is not graciously 'devolved' from the Westminster centre to the junior nations, to be retrieved if the centre isn't satisfied with the way they are used: certain defined and limited powers are delegated upwards by the nations to the centre. All "residual" powers not explicitly delegated to the federal centre belong as of right to the nations. The present top-down trajectory of power is reversed. This is perhaps the most important difference between our present system of partial devolution and a fully-fledged federal system.

Brian Barder @ 21 weeks ago
Carl,
I imagine even the Irish citizens living here will tell you what to do with that idea.

There's simply too much common history that can't be undone less than a century after they finally kicked us out. Ireland's done far better without us than with us.
Thomas Fairfax @ 21 weeks ago
Hi Brian,
I have to say I sympathise with Peter's proposition more than yours, as you appear to want to add yet another layer of government.

I don't think there would be any confusion necessarily because an English Commons wouldn't be running the FCO and MOD, or any other federal function.

Tax collection should be handled centrally but have the amount decided locally, thereby reducing the need to duplicate Treasury functions.

If the English Government has to duplicate any central function, then maybe they should duplicate it elsewhere in the regions and not pump further tax pounds into the south east. Modern communications mean the policy makers don't have to be in the same location as those implementing that policy.

The only question would be which Grace and Favour residences housed English Ministers, and which one housed Federal ones.

But really key to avoiding the Union breaking up is to call the SNPs bluff and join with them in campaigning for a referendum on Scotland's future asap, thereby siding with the concept of democracy. Hopefully pulling the rug from under Salmond's feet, because the sooner we have it, the more likely the SNP will lose.

Instead we currently have the SLP, Tories and Lib Dems seemingly wanting to fall wide eyed into every bear trap laid before them by the nats, and then constructing some of their own to jump into.

The SNP are doing well currently because they have a clever, articulate, and driven leader, competing against braying, clueless, donkeys.

Thomas Fairfax @ 21 weeks ago
Tim, I’m not a Scot, either, but my Scottish friends would I think agree generally with your analysis. You make an interesting point about individual UK nations acting as laboratories for political and social experimentation, which the others could observe and if appropriate, emulate. Of course something of the sort is already happening, with Scotland maintaining free tuition at its universities (for Scots — fair enough) and abolishing prescription charges. So far these have tended to prompt envious, even angry, cries in England, with people claiming that English taxpayers’ subsidies to Scotland are being used to give the Scots benefits that the English taxpayers don’t themselves enjoy. But whatever the rights and wrongs of who is subsidising whom (English wealth, Scottish oil, etc.), it’s in the logic of devolution, and even more so of federation, that laws and practices will vary from place to place. People who have been brainwashed by the years of manic over-centralisation, especially by Thatcher, Blair and Brown, will cry “post-code lottery”, as if everything ought to be uniform from Shetland to Scilly, meaning in practice that everything has to be decided in London. We have to learn to put up with, and benefit from, differences if local control of their affairs is ever to be returned to the people, both within and as between our four nations.
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks ago
Your answer is nonsensical. How would a federal Britain actually function in areas of defence, international relations and international finance if the 80% majority nation was at odds with the 20% minority nations?

What would happen if England was attacked by Ruritania (or Ruristan, more likely) and wanted to declare war, yet Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland decide that it wasn't their problem...

If each nation really "controls its own destiny" then what's the point of a Federation? New York doesn't control it's own destiny, and neither do any of the Swiss cantons.

Just admit that your idea is either half baked (or, as I said before, a ruse to impose socialism on a non-socialist England).
Max Sceptic @ 21 weeks ago
The whole point of federalism is that none of the component units -- in the case of the UK, the four nations -- can be hobbled or tethered by any of the others: each has full control of its own destiny. The federal centre would have no powers to interfere in the internal affairs of any of the four nations. This morbid suspicion of change takes no account of the reassuring experience of other functioning democratic federations. I wonder why. No interest in a bunch of foreigners, perhaps?
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks ago
Daniel, I wouldn't know where to begin to try to deal with this witches' brew of propositions. But to the extent that they add up to a repudiation of the numerous unsatisfactory features of our current system, I probably agree with most of them. None of the rest applies to the kind of federal system I envisage and have described. (And, to repeat: please let's keep anti-EU obsessions out of this discussion: they are completely irrelevant.)
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks ago
No: the logical development from a half-baked form of devolution is a fully-baked federation. The separate independence of the currently devolved UK nations would represent the failure and negation of devolution, not its "next stage".
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks ago

I see federalism as the more natural successor to devolution, considering the retention of links with Westminster and only certain powers being devolved to the Nations. Completing this means an English assembly (or we could perceivably go regional in England as an alternative balance to English numerical and economic dominance)

Ironically, this is the most clear cut answer to the West Lothian question too... A result that I'm sure doesn't please most Tories.

Tim Nicholls @ 21 weeks ago
Why don't we get Saudi Arabia or Kuwait into the Union and tell them to start redistributing?

As Scotland and Wales break away from the UK they will mean no more to us than we do to (say) kuwait or saudi. They will just be forign countries and will be owed absolutely nothing by those they leave behind.

Plundering small countries is usually pretty straight forward, so I would plan on sucking them dry at the first opportunity.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
The scots need to realise and I am sure that some of them do, that without the union,
there is not enough money to provide the infrastructure which goes to support the country. Everything from the education system to the NHS would collapse through lack of funding

They would be bankrupt within 6 months, and knocking on the door to let them back into the Union.
Alan M @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
"The EU is not a federation"

Well, not yet. But that is the ultimate goal of "ever closer union" - and the Lisbon (aka Constitutional) Treaty will make this goal much closer.
Max Sceptic @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
...and therefore a 'federation' of 4 nations would be just another way of hobbling England with a socialist tether.
Max Sceptic @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Scottish devolution means that in scotland I am treated differently to a Scot - when I was born, I had the 'right' to be treated identically to a Scot (and they to be treated identically to me), that right has been taken away from me.

I am not concerned about how americans feel about states etc. I am concerned about how I am treated in the country of my birth.

I liked being a citizen of the UK - but my citizenship no longer covers Scotland - in Scotland I am second class.

If we were ever to negotiate for re-unification it would have to be from a position of strength so the stronger we can make ourselves and the weaker we can make scotland the better...
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
The point is British voters should be represented in a British parliament. Not by unelectable idiots such as Neil Kinnock. And certain regions should not get a double vote. Only England has the misfortune to be led by people they never voted for. That is not democracy and neither is the EU. English voters are not as represented as they should be. All regions of the UK should have regional power... Cornwall, Yorkshire, Wales, London etc etc. National issues should be decided in a UK parliament and Britain should join the EFTA.

Having 80% of the electorate only having 25% of the power is a disgraceful proposition.
Daniel . @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Do you think that the constitutions of (for example) the United States and Australia are "totally unjust", or that their citizens regard them as being totally unjust? Both have exactly the provision that I propose for safeguarding the rights and autonomy of the smaller states through equal representation in their federal second chambers (Senates). Are we such ignorant chauvinists that we're incapable of learning from the experience of other like-minded democratic countries which comprise different communities with differing identities within them, like our own?

Whether a radical reform on the lines I propose is likely is of course another matter entirely.

Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Old Holborn: Brilliantly summed up in two simple sentences. Thank you!
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
The strength and durability of the Union of the four UK nations will be undermined if existing inequalities of prosperity and wealth between them (and within them) are allowed to continue and to increase, which will happen unless there is positive action to prevent it. Hence the need, whatever the constitutional relationship between England and the rest of the UK, for measures to redistribute income and wealth from the richer to the poorer areas of the country, both as between the four nations and within each. A division on a precise population or land proportional basis would be damaging and reactionary. Even Tories, or some of them anyway, recognise an obligation on the part of the most well off to help to reduce the gap between themselves and those poorer than themselves.
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
This is an extraordinary comment, if you don't mind my saying so (or even if you do!). Do you think that a New Yorker feels that the federal system -- a more complete form of devolution -- has "stolen part of his country" just because New Yorkers, like all the other peoples of the American states, have complete control of their own internal affairs? Do you suppose that a New Yorker feels like a foreigner, or any less like an American, when he visits Connecticut or California? Baloney, Sir!

Your last sentence gets it absolutely right, however, and expresses an inherently federalist sentiment.

Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
As compared with the other three UK nations, England is unquestionably dominant, with around 80 per cent of the total UK population as well as being easily the biggest and richest of the four. This huge disparity between one of the four nations and the other three is the cause of many of our present discontents; one of the reasons why we need a federal system is precisely to limit the ill effects of that English dominance by providing for all four nations to have complete control of their own internal affairs as of right, and by ensuring that the votes of the English representatives in the federal second chamber at Westminster can't outnumber all the rest put together. The EU has nothing whatever to do with it and I hope the anti-EU (and pro-EU, come to that) obsessives will resist the urge to drag it into this otherwise useful and informative discussion.
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
If they keep it up maybe the english we will secede...

Scotland has a third of the UK's land, so maybe they should have a third of he UK governments debts, they have a tenth of the UK's population so maybe they could have a tenth of the UK governments assets...

It makes sense for assets to be divided by population as they will have been created through past labour - it makes sense for debts to be divided by land area as land it is an absolutely finite resource so the limit on future development (to pay off the debt).
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Scotland secede... all pigs fuelled and ready to fly...

The scots know how to play the game, mouthing platitudes to the population with regard to scots independence but
brazenly taking the English pound in order to feed its masses.

Scotland knows which side its bread is buttered and it is not outside the union...
Alan M @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
"The dominance of England as by far the biggest and richest of the four nations, now almost unfettered except by convention, would need to be formally limited, probably by turning the House of Lords as the second chamber of the all-UK parliament into an elected ‘house of the nations’ — call it a Senate — in which all four nations have equal representation, so that English representatives on their own can never out-vote those of the other three nations."

Very democratic.20% of the population dominate 80%

And what chance of that happening? Nil.

I'm sorry. This is not a serious article. Or if it is meant to be serious, it cannot be taken as such. NO-ONE in their right minds would seriously propose such a constitution as it would be totally unjust.
madasa fish @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Just sort it out so we get no more mentalists from up there running England. England is not dominant it is under siege from the EU and holier than thou Scots who get double representation.
Daniel . @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Brian, I have to agree with the essence of your proposal. To put things in perspective: although my parents were both born in London I have always thought of myself as British rather than just English, perhaps because I was born abroad (Alexandria) and lived there throughout the War. Like you, I take pride in being British, and in contemplating the UK’s achievements in the past 300 years and the great men it has produced on both sides of the Border. Like many English, though, I did not fully realise how very different Scotland is in so many repects until I came to live there in 1963. A legal system, educational system, and Church separate from those of England, and separate lots of other things from football leagues to SPCA and National Trust. It would be improper for me to speak for Scots, but my general impression is that they are in general content with the UK but vigorously resent the ignorance of the English about Scotland, and the English tendency to regard Scotland as a rather large county in the north of Britain with no real history of its own – a feeling which they regard as self-respect and the English as a chip on the shoulder.

I would make just one comment on a federal Great Britain: it would be a splendid laboratory for political and social experimentation: experimentation in, for instance, penal reform implemented in just one nation and closely watched by the other three whose continuing systems would act as baselines, with due allowance for pre-existing differences in national practice and traditions. I hope I live to see a federal Britain up and running.
Tim Weakley @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Why is it that socialists expect everyone to prostrate themselves to worship at the alter that the socialists happen to label 'the common good'.

I am pretty angry about devolution - the whole land of the UK was my birthright as a Briton. But I am in no position to challenge devolution, so I accept it - but the b*stards who support it should expect nothing from me but my contempt - they have stolen part of my country, and made me a second class citizen in those parts. In return they can expect to pay the heaviest possible price whenever the opportunity arises.

I will go as far out of my way as I can to damage devolution and its supporters - Brown propping up scottish financial institutions, while dragging his heels when doing the same for english financial institutions is a financial, polticial and moral slight that england should repay in full to the scots.

I laugh when the BBC try to pretend that Andy 'I support any football team but England' Murray is presented as anything other than a through and through scot.

I'll treat every individual as I find them - but equally england should and must treat every other nation as it finds them.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
The EU is not a federation. The federal system that I advocate is not regionalism (I didn't choose the map at the top of my post!). In a federal system it would be up to the voters in England to decide, through their parliament and government, whether to devolve some or all of their powers further downwards to the regions of England, or further still to individual counties, towns and villages, as happens in many continental European and American countries and states. All that is irrelevant to the issue of a federation of the four UK nations. Let's work on that first. Once we have got it, each of the UK nations can start thinking about how to organise its own internal system of government, which could well be different in each UK nation.
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Oh, dear. The aim is neither to divide nor to conquer, but rather to unite all the component parts of the UK in a new and democratic relationship. Do the federal systems of the US, Australia, Germany, Switzerland, Canada, and many others involve dividing and conquering their peoples? Quite the opposite. The full internal autonomy of the constituent states protects them from being "conquered" (dominated) by an over-centralising federal government. Until devolution -- which is a kind of incipient federalism -- England effectively dominated the three other smaller nations: hence Scotland's demand for either devolution or independence. The 'end goal' is a democratic federal union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in which each of those nations governs itself, free from interference by any other UK nation, however big, or from the centre, but in which the four nations delegate to a single elected federal government and parliament responsibility for those matters (such as foreign affairs, defence, the national currency, and a few other things) which are obviously best run collectively by a single elected and accountable authority and not separately by each of the four nations' governments.

It's extraordinary, if you'll forgive me for saying so, that Britons generally seem to have so little understanding of the way other western democracies govern themselves or of the reasons for the systems they have developed. It shouldn't be necessary, surely, to have to explain the purposes of a federal system when we are surrounded by excellent examples of how and why they work?
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Damn right it is! (But it's a bit early to assume that the Daily Mail has any idea what Vince Cable's proposal means, let alone agrees with it.)
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
There's a deep confusion here. I'm talking about limiting the dominance of England within a federal UK, not reducing the influence of the UK within the EU, or internationally. A federal system in which the component parts of the UK were united in a new democratic relationship would strengthen, not weaken, the UK's international voice and standing.

Your question whether the "French, Germans etc have any plans to reduce their influence" reflects the same confusion. Germany is a federation, with a federal constitution which protects the rights of the smaller Lander (the equivalents of our four UK nations) from being dominated by the bigger and more powerful, mainly through the federal upper house, the Bundesrat. None of that reduces the influence of Germany itself: quite the reverse. Similarly the US Senate, in which every state has the same number of Senators regardless of their population size, is a protection for small states like Vermont from being dominated by the giant states such as California and New York. Their other major protection is that under their constitution they have full control over their own internal affairs. I am simply proposing the same internal arrangements for the UK in a new federal system. Anyway, limiting one part's dominance is very different from limiting the influence of the whole.
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Ricki, if we ever had a fully-fledged federation of all four nations of the UK, each of the four, including England, would of course have to have its own parliament and government. Part of the constitutional changes leading to federation would include first establishing an English parliament and government. England, like the other three nations, would have full autonomy in its domestic affairs; the four nations would agree to delegate to an all-UK federal government at Westminster control, on their behalf, of such matters as foreign affairs and defence which obviously couldn't be split up and administered separately by each of the four nations. The UK currency would be another responsibility delegated to the federal all-UK government. It's worth looking at (for example) the Australian constitution to see how it might work.

It's true that "we" (who do you mean by "we"?) might not all like what the other UK nations would do with their autonomy in their internal affairs. But that's better than having everything decided far from ordinary people by a single almighty government at Westminster. It's called democracy: people deciding what they want at local level rather than centrally. Anyway, already with limited devolution English people might not like what the Scots are doing with their autonomy: releasing Megrahi, abolishing prescription charges... But we in England will have to get used to accepting that these Scottish matters are none of our business, and whether we like them or not is irrelevant.
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
I accept that if and when England has its own parliament and government (as an eventual federal system would require), they are unlikely in present circumstances to be Labour. Since England constitutes around 80 per cent of the UK, and I'm English and live in England, I would naturally regard this as disastrous. But it could act as a spur to the rejuvenation of Labour in England; and anyway who can tell what the political climate would be like in England, or in the other three UK nations, by the time the goal of an eventual federation had been debated and broadly agreed throughout the UK, a constitution for England drafted, debated and agreed, new England-only institutions (parliament and government) created, and elections held to them, all as essential preliminaries to the establishment of a federal union of the four nations?
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
The dominance of England...would need to be formally limited,

Thats a good one - good luck with that.

It seems to be that the Scots may be stupid enough to believe they would be better off outside the UK, I don't think the welsh would go quite that far.

But I think most people in england would agree that if their influence within the EU is gong to be even more *reduced* then the EU it is even more reason to leave.

Do the french, germans etc have any plans to reduce their influence? Do tell...

So anyway - good luck with that... it is about as likely as labour winning the next election...
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Blimey Brian, with the Daily Mail and Vince Cable backing up the argument it must be true!
Bill Dewison @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Where would a 'strong national UK government' be if Scotland seceded from the United Kingdom? The remnants of the UK, if they managed to maintain their identity as a single sovereign state, would be most unlikely to elect a Labour government without Scottish votes: what would that do for 'the protection of British workers from corporate capitalism' (etc)? Federation is likely to be the price to be paid for averting the disintegration of our country, not an alternative to strong central UK government.
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
By coincidence Vince Cable MP, perhaps the most widely respected politician in Britain, has just published an article in the Daily Mail (at http://bit.ly/3lalbH) sounding the alarm at the possible break-up of the UK and suggesting that a federation “like the US, Canada or Germany” would be the best solution [actually Australia is probably the best model of all]. Might this be the start of something big?
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Regionalism is NOT the way forward for democratic socialism in the UK.

We need a strong national UK government to protect British workers from the corporate capitalism of the EU and the global conglomorates.
Tom Sacold @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Ask the EU (Hint: the map above indicates the English 'regions').
Max Sceptic @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
The truth is that you Brian - like most intelligent Labourites - know very well that without Scotland and Wales Labour will never, ever again have a parliamentary majority in England.
Max Sceptic @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Hi Brian /Labourlist

If we have given the Welsh, Scottish and Northen Irland there on parlimant/assembly what do the English have ? Westminster is outdated but if we go for real localism we may not like what comes out of it .

ricki
ricki lake @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Switzerland

I pay 17% Corporation tax in Zug, can take the mayor to task in the local pub and vote on anything I like.

Federal is GOOD.
Old Holborn @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Divide and conquer eh Brian, divide and conquer.

If you could give me the end goal that would be helpful, or should i presume what it will be?
Bill Dewison @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Peter, I really think it's time to separate out the two incompatible functions of the Westminster parliament -- serving as a parliament for England on all subjects (for which its current membership is completely unsuitable), and simultaneously as an all-UK parliament on subjects not devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. To make the Commons a parliament for England and the Lords (however re-named) a federal parliament, both still occupying the same parliament building at Westminster, would just lead to continued confusion and anomaly. Also, would the England-only House of Commons produce one government and the new federal House of Lords another, both occupying Whitehall? If we're going to have a federal system, let's do it properly. We would still need an elected federal House of Commons for all-UK matters other than those for which the four nations' parliaments were responsible (e.g. foreign affairs and defence) and a federal government, drawn from it, with a civil service and diplomatic service; and because of the huge disparity in size of population, it will be essential also to have a federal second chamber or Senate, with equal numbers of Senators elected by each of the four nations, regardless of their population sizes, to prevent England from dominating the other three (as in other democratic federations, and as spelled out in my post). England needs its own completely separate parliament and government, possibly not in London at all, anyway not in Westminster or Whitehall.

I can't see the processes required for achieving all this taking less than 20 years. Just to get an all-party consensus on the principle of federation would take several years, and there would have to be at least one Royal Commission, a constitutional convention for England and another for the UK as a whole, and several referendums. The federal constitution would have to be drafted, debated and approved: ditto the constitutions for each of the four nations. But once the ultimate goal was agreed and a majority of people in all four nations began to work towards it, the political and constitutional climate would change very quickly. Of course revenue allocations and oil and subsidies and the rest would pose extremely difficult questions, but they will pose them whether or not we can all agree to move towards a federal solution: and a federation would include the institutional machinery for working them out by agreement.

It seems to me that the logic of our present anomalous and messy situation points unmistakably to the need for a full federation, however long it takes: and that no other solution will tick all the boxes. But I'm not holding my breath!

Brian
http://www.barder.com/ephems/
Brian Barder @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Something like this, perhaps, Peter?

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Britain_Bill

...the real question is surely whether Ireland be tempted to join...making it the Commonwealth of the Isles.
Carl Rowlands @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Hi Labourlist

Surely if we started devoloution then the next stage is independence?

ricki ( not quite got hold of long words yet sorry )
ricki lake @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
Hi Peter,

Was that this one?

http://www.labourlist.org/why_stop_at_devolution_peter_thomson

I never saw a second but can't see that comment anywhere in this...?

A
Alex Smith @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago
A few days ago I sent a similar piece for publication by Labour List in it I said the following:

The English do not know what they are or where they stand; Westminster is no longer the centre for UK politics for the Welsh and the Scots, the City is no longer the major driver of the UK economy as the constituent parts become aware what is good for London is not necessarily good for them, the English appear no longer in control of their national destiny as more and more powers they thought were theirs appear to leach to the EU and yet Scottish and Welsh MP’s can influence how their country is run.

So we have the arguments of who subsidises who, should the Scots take all taxation from the Scottish North Sea oil and gas sector, can England survive without the excess of energy in all forms Scotland can generate, just how will the SE survive in twenty years time with out access to Scotland’s surplus of fresh water? People take entrenched views and the politics of division, so long practised in Westminster, work to take advantage for their own electoral benefit while pretending unity is the key - as epitomised by the rise of UKIP and the BNP

I have a possible answer – give Westminster back to the people of England; if the Union is to survive then the House of Lords must be reformed into an elected senate on a proportional or STV basis, funded on a per capita, per nation and region with an in built majority of English representatives reflecting the population of these islands. This body will have oversight and control of all agreed UK joint interests – Defence, Foreign Relations, The UN and the EU for example."

Its not rocket science but it means that the civil service at Westminster will have to stop pretending it is still running the British Empire and the three main parties will have to give up on their self appointed hegemony of running the UK as a club.

Personally 20 years will be too long a time span without a reformed Westminster as with in five years from 2010 Scotland will be gone with the finger firmly pointing at a Nu Labour Party who thought they could micromanage the Scots through a tame Holyrood, the way they have manipulated Westminster.

Westminster as being essential to UK politics has had its day.
Peter Thomson @ 21 weeks and 1 day ago