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Time to drop the dishonest “Tories cut, Labour invests” mantra

10%By Brian Barder

Labour party members recently received a circular message purporting to come from Ed Balls, the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families, although — to be charitable — it seems unlikely that Mr Balls had ever seen it. The message described "our radical new school reforms", and asserted that “that these plans and all of our achievements would be put at risk by the Tories and their plans to cut 10 per cent from education budgets.”  Party members were urged to:

"write to your local newspaper and ask local Conservative candidates how many local schools and how many teachers would be cut under their plans. …Tory cuts of 10 per cent across the board would mean fewer teachers and classroom assistants, making it much harder to keep discipline and order in the classroom. The Tories in Westminster are simply refusing to go into detail about exactly what their cuts would mean for our schools and so I need you to help me expose them at a local level - where the cuts will be felt hardest."

All this is of course designed to reinforce the current party line: the Tories will cut public services by 10%, whereas if re-elected, Labour will continue to ‘invest’ in them.  The figure of 10% is derived from a remark made, perhaps incautiously, by a Tory front-bench spokesman, the shadow health secretary Andrew Lansley on the BBC Today Programme on 10th June:

"We are going to increase the resources for the NHS, we are going to increase resources for international development aid. We are going to increase resources for schools. But that does mean over three years after 2011 a 10 per cent reduction in the departmental expenditure limits for other departments.”

The Conservatives have extensively re-interpreted Lansley’s remark, but it has by now passed into Labour folklore and nothing will remove it.

But if the Tories scored an apparent (but not necessarily an actual) own goal with their 10% cuts, the Prime inister and other Labour spokesmen have outdone them with their efforts to persuade a rightly disbelieving electorate that unlike the Tories, a re-elected Labour government would actually increase capital expenditure, year by year, even as the country and the world are expected to emerge from the recession with an unprecedented load of debt needing to start being paid off. This claim is made the more incredible by the figures in the Treasury’s own budget Red Book which shows a steep decline in forecast capital expenditure in each of the three years from 2011/12, apparently contradicting Gordon Brown’s assertion. The government’s explanation of the discrepancy, gleefully seized on by David Cameron in parliament and all over the media, is either that the Red Book figures endlessly quoted by the Tories take no account of planned asset sales, shown elsewhere in the statistics,  or alternatively that the apparent decline in capital expenditure is an optical illusion caused by the decision to bring forward slabs of capital spending to an earlier date, as part of the fiscal stimulus to the economy to limit the effects of the recession and accelerate the country’s recovery from it.  The implication is that by advancing some spending originally planned for three years’ time to this year or next, the figures for later years will seem to decline but the overall total over the period will remain the same.

Both explanations will strike most sensible people as too clever by half.  In a reply to the circular purporting to come from Mr Balls, I pointed out that:

"Someone in the party machine ought to have woken up by now to the widespread public disgust, shared by many of us at the grass roots, at the government’s (and the Labour party’s) refusal to acknowledge the reality that whatever government is in power when the country begins to emerge from recession is going to have to make significant cuts in government spending and also greatly to increase taxes, in order to make a start on paying off the gigantic national debt incurred as part of the cost of bailing out the banks and stimulating the economy to avert a full-scale slump. To go on mechanically denouncing the Tories as the party that wants to impose spending cuts (with the unavoidable implication that a Labour government will not) is simply dishonest, and almost everyone knows it."

Thus what was probably originally a blunder (or, as the media love to say in their nursery-speak, a ‘gaffe’) by Mr Lansley is now widely seen as a frank, honest and rather courageous acknowledgement of the economic realities, while Gordon Brown’s (and Mr Balls’s, if he really wrote or approved the circular) attacks on the Tories for promising swingeing cuts, while Labour promises actually to increase government spending, appear both dishonest and, perhaps worse, obviously and simple-mindedly dishonest.

This ham-fisted campaign is a tragedy for Labour.  In my response to the disastrous circular, I suggested that the current line was depriving the government and the party of a different and much more positive line which would have the incidental advantages of being both truthful and credible:

        * First, show that the measures taken by the government to deal with the banking crisis and the recession were sound, and widely recognised as such throughout the western world; that they are beginning to take effect, although there’s still a long way to go; and that they unavoidably entail borrowing on an unprecedented scale.

        * Secondly, recall that these measures were scathingly opposed by the Tories, whose counter-proposals would have deepened and prolonged the recession.

        * Thirdly, point out that while all three major parties agree that the huge debts incurred in rescuing the banks and averting a slump will have to be paid off and that this will inevitably mean severe cuts in government expenditure and selective increases in taxes, a Labour government would embark on those cuts and tax increases only after Britain begins to come out of the recession, whereas the Tories want to start cutting government expenditure (and actually reducing some taxes!) immediately, in mid-recession, an economically illiterate policy certain to make an already bad situation even worse.

        * Fourthly, express the suspicion that Tory cuts and tax increases would be mainly arbitrary and across-the-board, thus hitting hardest the least well off and the most vulnerable, whereas Labour will target cuts and tax increases that will so far as possible protect the most vulnerable and ensure that the bulk of the burden is carried by those best able to bear it.  (But this will mean coming clean about broadly which spending cuts and which taxes Labour will focus on, instead of keeping up the shameful pretence that Labour will somehow be able actually to increase spending and avoid the need for increased taxation.)

Labour spokesmen are already using parts of this formula.  But it will fall flat as long as the government and the party leadership keep up the absurd pretence that a Tory government will impose fierce cuts on spending if elected next year (and will be wrong to do so), while a re-elected Labour government will not cut spending but will actually increase it.  As a Tory doctor and politician, the “Radio Doctor”, almost said in a then famous Conservative party political  broadcast long before most readers of this were born, in an effective attack on a prominent Labour-supporting novelist, "Chuck it, Gordon!"

And a note to Ed Balls: do find out who is sending out this terrible stuff in your name, and tell him to stop. You might also usefully make a point of disowning it.

Posted on Jul 06, 2009 at 12:18pm

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Thanks for that, Jonathan. But in my view it would be a pity if this thread were to lapse into a general attack on either Gordon Brown or Ed Balls. Both have great strengths and -- like all humans, even politicians -- some weaknesses. The objective of my post was to appeal for an end to the counter-productive "Tory cuts, Labour keeps on spending" line, which cuts no ice and is damaging to both the government and the Labour party: and to suggest an alternative line which would be truthful, realistic, and helpful to both government and party. Let's concentrate on policies rather than personalities, focusing wherever possible on the immense damage that Tory party policies for an economy in recession would inflict on the country if David Cameron and George What's-'is-name were to be in a position to put them into effect. (Oh, yes: Osborne. That one.)
Brian Barder @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Agreed, thanks.

Ralph Baldwin @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
I have posted on my own blog a piece about the different ways in which other bloggers have responded to this one: please see
http://www.barder.com/ephems/1846 — including the comment appended immediately under it.


Brian

http://www.barder.com/ephems/
Brian Barder @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
One of the reasons I suggested power generation is we are reaching a point where our power grids will be at capacity, so the network needs investment anyway. Whilst upgrading the grid, building in extra capacity would be easier and exporting power isn't as difficult as exporting say a car.

I agree there are plenty of office jobs, but there are jobs in the service industry full stop. Driving jobs and warehouse work to name two areas, but the wages are a joke. The minimum wage is great, but times the minimum wage by an average working week and it doesn't add up to much, especially with housing and utilities being expensive. New industry could give the training needed to give people a variety of skills with on the job training, saving millions with regards to training facilities, and if the industry could be made profitable the taxpayer would no longer be picking up the tab for retraining individuals.

There are huge challenges if a project was taken on as I've suggested, not least making it really profitable, not just profitable on paper as many government statistics manage. Looking good or promoting a political point shouldn't be the primary concern, making a good profit to ensure the project worked and became an income generator rather than another drain on public finances would take some innovative thinking. It would also mean that the public service would need a major adjustment in attitude and be brought more inline with the private sector when it comes to what is viable and what is not.

Believing a scheme or project like that could actually work and turn a profit is bordering on insanity, but the present system is insanity, so it may not be such a bad idea.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks ago
You make a good point, we as a country don't produce anything any more, we export virtually nothing. Although this wouldn't protect us from this downturn (Germany and Japan are suffering badly) it would give some balance.

It has been noted that there is an underclass in this country and I think part of the problem is there are many well paid office jobs but very few manufacturing jobs. If you do not fit into an office environment or don't have the qualifications you're screwed, especially with construction faltering so badly.

We can't subsidise these industries though, manufacturing taxes must be slashed and inxcentives introduced to bring industry to the workers as in South Wales. Gordon loves new Hi Tech industries, they would be great but there are many less skilled workers who need jobs too.
Thomas Snoxell @ 31 weeks ago
I thought 'Berlusconi years' meant 'consorting with very attractive young women'.

You naughty, naughty man.... ;-)
Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks ago
GDP per capita comparison figures from 1979 and 1997 using the UK as a bench mark in relation to similar developed economies.

In all figures the UK is 100 and other countries a percentage in comparison:

USA 1979 - 160, 1997 - 145
France 1979 - 122, 1997 - 105
Italy 1979 - 106, 1997 - 100
Swedan 1979 - 118, 1997 - 101
Switz 1979 - 148, 1997 - 125

2 similar countries increased their rank compared to the UK according to Government figures. Germany rose from 108% to 112% but these figures are extimates based upon unification. Japan rose from 104% to 118% as they went through their massive economic growth period.

In other words after a period of relative economic decline for the UK, Thatcher's legacy was to see a significantly stronger UK economy in relation to our major global competitors.

By all means though Peter, feel free to wallow in leftie wishfull thinking the the UK under the old clause 4 Labour party was anything other than the economic basket case most of us know it was.
Guy M @ 31 weeks ago
Peter,

There are lies, damn lies and statistics as you well know.

And one very big hole in your statistics.

Please explain the impact of the 1950s baby boom on the economy and the aging demographic to GDP/Capita since?

The main problem with GDP/Capita in most of the Western world is this very reason and you damn well know it.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks ago
If you can (even with hindsight) provide the 'forward planning' plan you think should have been in place - please go ahead and publish it, it will still be useful.

The only 'plan' that those involved would have accepted would have been to continue to be a growing burden on the productive, wealth creating individuals in this country.

If was only the fact that dinosaurs become extinct that allowed mammals to replace them.

Sorry, dinosaurs, but it is for you to adapt or die, no one owes you a living.

Communities sat on their bums, while their houses crumbled around them - tough, no one owes them a living - it was for them to build their own new futures - blowing redundancy payments on new cars and kitchens was blatant stupidity, but tough - no one owes anyone else a living.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 31 weeks ago
Ralph, As we have all basked in the sunshine of the Thatcher economic miracle post-1979, here's a fact you may find interesting :

Increase in GDP/capita 1948 - 1978 : 95 per cent
Increase in GDP/capita 1978 - 2008 : 94 per cent

Some miracle....
Peter Barnard @ 31 weeks ago
James the point I made on the economists was satirical. You were the one who first mentioned them, I was not attempting to "point score" using your information.

When I studied economics all resources were in fact defined as unlimited which was in 1990's, at the time I was looking for an economic theory to support my environmental studies.

I will have a look at your sourse material though out of interest as I am interested to know why these economists complained.
So thank you for the link.

Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks ago
On your last point...boy are we working on it....
Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks ago
Interesting to note that of the 'many' opinionated commentors to this post not a single one is in favour of Brown or Balls.

Says it all.

The big problem for the Left is that the Internet destroys their one and only weapon - information manipulation whether it be proaganda or spin. The Internet is the greatest gift ever to the Righht-of Centre while it destroys the Left. Just take a look at the headlines under the pictures to the left of this post and decide for yourself how many you can believe. Many are just laughable. Labour has been rumbled - finished - and the British peple know it.
Scot Richards @ 31 weeks ago
Phil is absolutely correct - and the British people know it too. Brown ran up a deficit of £200 billion up to 2007. Somehow - according to Labour spin - this was the fault of teh Americans. So when the crisis hit the cupboard was empty. Yet what exactly do we have to shopw for the £200 B. Sweet FA to be honest.

Looking back on Labour's term in government two things spring to mind. First - they haven't actually finished anything they started. Lots of pronouncements, initiatives press releases, ministerial announcements, spin and then.... nothing.

Second there is a distinct lack of simple management abilities clearly evident. The entire history of teh Labour movement has been to oppose the very concept of management. You'd think that now they are taking nearly half of OUR money to run the country they might appoint a few ministers who have some experience in setting and maintaining budgets. Instead, look what we get. Ed Balls clearly couldn't manage a fart at a baked bean eating contest.

Next look at the items proposed in the article above that are supposed to 'cure' Mr Testicles' blatant lies. Every single one is post-fact as though Labour had nothing to do with the mess in the first place. If this is the best they can do then Labour's election slogan should be 'Slightly Less Lies than Ed Balls'.

And the line about Balls looking into who is putting out information with his name on it is risible. C'mon, people, Ed Balls' name was on it. Please don't look around for a scapegoat.

everything here points interminably to the Labour Party in all its forms being consigned to teh dustbin of history over the next 10 years. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of liars. All of them
Scot Richards @ 31 weeks ago
"The tactics currently being employed by the Labour Party are no different to those used by the Conservative government of 1996"

There is some truth in this: in fact I would go back to the apallingly cynical, negative campaign the Tories founght in '92 as perhaps the first indication of the free fall of standards in public life that began in Major years.

I always maintain that Major should have resigned after the ERM crisis and his failure to do so ultimately identified the Tory party with sleaze and selfishness. After that, I left the party, unwilling to fight for an administration I had contempt for. The bar in terms of both competence and morality were set so low by Major that it allowed New Labour to get away with murder (almost literally) when it got into power. Labour have descended much further into the gutter, but they would never have been allowed to get away with so much without the amorality of the Major years.
Andrew Cadman @ 31 weeks ago
Or set them up strategically around the country to make sure that travelling distance were not an issue and build in dedicated transport links using a combination of existing networks and new networks. The new networks themselves would bring much needed jobs and once established, a stream of revenue.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks ago
One of my dislikes about the New Labour project is the fact that many investments do not really amount to anything other than tickling the edges of the problem, it seems to be wasted on bureaucracy rather than actually doing something that will make a difference.

Real investment would be a well thought out industrial project that has been proven to make a profit. This would create real jobs, manufacturing, engineering and administration. There would be support jobs such as transport, catering and even cleaning. But it would have to be profitable, otherwise we would be returning to industry of old. With real jobs, productive jobs on offer it would then be very easy to see who was on the dole through choice and who wanted to work.

Couple that with a review of those on disability benefit. There are thousands of genuine disabled people and their conditions, although not always obvious, are documented with the medical profession, whether mental or physical. Those who can not give good documented proof or who fail to demonstrate why they are claiming the benefit need to be reviewed thoroughly. Mistakes will be made, but if that is known from the outset there should be a cooling off period.

It won't resolve the problem completely, but it would build an profitable industry in Britain and those who need jobs would have them. There would be something to study for, no matter what your brain power is and if the industry was profitable enough, a real increase in wages to those who worked there. All profits could go directly to clearing public debt and once that is done, could be used to fund further projects in industry that again would need to be profitable or they could be used to renationalise certain parts of the public transport network and provide reduced fares, basing them on a no profit no loss.

I know I'm dreaming a little, but I genuinely think there are some great minds in the UK who could pull this off, no matter who was at the helm.

Industry wise, why not power generation? We could export that. Or sensible but stylish cars drawing on the design and engineering background we have to come up with a truely original range? A new generation of ships or even a new generation of houses - recently I've been researching a new type of housing that could be built as social housing, but which would lend itself to being sold as low cost housing for the masses. All could be wholesale exported and bring some real wealth to this country instead of the service based economy we have right now.

Hands up if you now view me as insane.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks ago
Barry, I didn't offer any analysis.
I made an observation about one way in which LabourList differs from conventional blogs. That is, it uses multiple post originators. It has done since the outset.

My point was to question whether it should reject another aspect of conventional blogs, namely that post originators should respond to comments.

[I'm not sure if the 'son' was directed at me or Brian. I'm sure we'll both be flattered, being well into our Berlusconi years.]
Hamish D @ 31 weeks ago
Afternoon Max,

I know - I'm a bit slow to realise what they have been up to! I thought they had just been over spinning things.

Having read the book I now realise just how awful Brown and Balls are - I am genuinely shocked at all manner of devious things they have got up to.

Jonathan Cook @ 31 weeks ago
Conservative culling of geese was that they didn't have any forward planning.

Actually it was worse than that. North Sea Oil revenues started rolling in after Thatcher's victory. Conspiracy theorists claim that the oilmen held them back until after a Tory victory, but I reckon it was just a coincidence. However, look at other countries that have had an oil bonanza: they saved their oil money. Norway has a huge sovereign fund, as do the smaller Arab states in the Middle East.

So what do we have? Nothing. Our Golden Goose was killed by Thatcher. In fact, even though Thatcher had billions coming in from North Sea oil, she actually raised the national debt! Where did that money go? It went on keeping people unemployed. This is the most important message we need to get across: the Tories pay to keep people out of work, whereas Labour uses that money to re-skill people so that they are able to get new work.
Richard Blogger @ 31 weeks ago
Good Morning! Brown and Ball liars - gosh, golly, holy macaroni! And where have you been since 1994?
Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks ago
Brian,

I'm currently reading Gordon Brown's biography by Tom Bower.

This book is a jaw dropping shocker. It seems as if Brown and Balls have been misleading the public for years.

Congratulations for posting your article - I'm not sure that we are going to see honesty return until Brown and Balls are no more.
Jonathan Cook @ 31 weeks ago
This is after over twelve years of a Labour Government! Education,education, education!

We must have a change of Government and get rid of the incompetent, dishonest, third rate party hacks who are currently miserably failing to run the country.
Sungei Patani @ 31 weeks ago
Brian wrote: "First, show that the measures taken by the government to deal with the banking crisis and the recession were sound"

It suits New Labour apologists to argue about what should have been done when the banks started collapsing. Door Horse Bolted Stable.

For an economic genius that ended boom and bust the more pertinent question is why we were in this mess in the first place. It doesn't take an economic genius to see that £5bn a year from pensions, billions charged for 3G licenses (quite legitimately but nevertheless more money going from private to the public sector) and the countless stealth taxes all amounted to a significant increase in the burden on the private sector. Simultaneously, public expenditure expanded even faster than this huge rise in taxes could afford LONG BEFORE THE BANKING CRISIS OCCURRED.

The UK government doesn't have any of its own money, only that which it taxes from us or which it borrows on the strict understanding we will pay it back (plus interest). If our government spends money on Trident, foreign wars, nice-to-have's like the Olympics, Galileo, Millennium Dome, non-front line public sector employees (i.e. the likes of equality directors etc. rather than nurses or teachers), Quangos, EU etc. then this is called PROFLIGACY.

The essence of profligacy is not merely that you spend a lot of money on certain things. The penny-pinching national government of Churchill spent a lot of money on Spitfires and Bletchley Park. Profligacy is the failure to say No to anything that costs money. Think about it, what did Gordon Brown ever decide NOT spend money on? Trident? Wars? EU? Quangos, NHS, schools, universities...

Whichever members of this list you happen to like, you must grudgingly admit that the other items are also in the list and together they cost a bloody fortune (literally, in the case of the wars).

Only a fool or a knave would argue that our present economic difficulties are in no way related to years of profligacy. The sooner the Labour Party ejects these liars from office the sooner we can get this country back to sound economic principles and honest public discourse.
Phil Mill @ 31 weeks ago
I have said this before on this site and attracted quite a lot of vitriol under the tag line "do you think anyone is unemployed by choice?" but I know that some people ARE unemployed by choice.

We talk a lot about the recession and for sure it is hard for many but there are jobs out there. They may only be part time, low paid or unskilled but they are there if you want them. There are many out there that wont take a job because its beneath them or too low paid. I have seen this first hand. This is unemployment by choice. Its not a very palatable choice to do a low paid job but its one that has to be taken.

As for the Thatcher years it wasn't that people didn't take jobs, it was that there weren't any in many areas. We have a different problem now. Things have been so good for so long people don't want to give up their luxuries to make ends meet.

I don't know what kind of investment has taken place in the North but to be quite frank I'm sick of investment. It is the taxpayer that gets forgotten in all this, the media focus on "government spending" and "the poorest in society" and "hard working families". What I see is people working damned hard to make ends meet to finance this "investment". We need to remember that its these people that make it all possible. They have been queezed all through the good times and its now unbearable.

I know its fashionable to focus on the poorest in society but in my opinion we should be focusing on the tax-paying, hard-working people of this country. Those who are able to work but refuse work should be removed from the benefit system. There should be no reason for them to receive benefit when they have made no effort to work.
Thomas Snoxell @ 31 weeks ago
I love watching Ed speak*, the amount of effort he puts into not blinking the whole time would power the national grid.


* Lie
Charlie Farley @ 31 weeks ago
Hmm, then we end up with the decision to locate facilities where there is no natural skill base but a wealth of 'trained' people that brought BL down in the 1970s.

If there is such a wealth of talent, the firms need to be encouraged to come with cheap start up rents and lower business taxes.

Failing that, grants to relocate people looking for work beyond a reasonable travelling distance may be the only remaining, if drastic answer.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks ago
Quite so; and we have the fact that this coming year, welfare payments will exceed tax revenues.

That's another fine mess you've got us in Gordon.
Barry Hunt @ 31 weeks ago
The simple fact is that Balls is an unspeakable bullying oaf of the nastiest sort. Any PM how has him as his right hand mean tells me all I need to know about that PM.

Neither are fit for office, never mind high office of state.

Neither have any qualification to be in the positions they are.

This is evidenced by the state of our finances (Balls/Brown)

The destruction of a once fine education system (Various/Balls)

What a shame we cannot prosecute them for treason, for treasonous they surely are.
Barry Hunt @ 31 weeks ago
Brown and his government were history long before the expenses scandal erupted.

I don't belong to any political party, so I'll not be disappointed.

It is a tad simplistic to say that most politicians are self-serving scum - and those that aren't are the really dangerous ones. But the scepticism implied in such a statement is healthier than belief in 'socialism' or the altruistic endeavours of Labour.

I'll vote for whichever party promises to do less.

Less interference, less taxes, less public sector, less control, less rules and regulations, less public spending, less public employees, less foreign wars, less red tape, less dictats, less MPs, less EU, less government, etc. etc.
Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks ago
"In retrospect I think those 364 economists had a very good long term outlook on things.....lol judging from where we are with the banks."

Ralph, there were many thing plain wrong with your above post. If them skim through them all you will no doubt mistake my points as being tribal goal scoring and quickly retort without stopping to think. So instead I have found you a book to read, its a free pdf and quite a short book.

You clearly have no idea what those 364 economists were talking about in the first place, let alone why they were wrong. So read up and try to further your economic understanding just a little bit: http://www.iea.org.uk/files/upld-publication310pdf
James - Man of the Right @ 31 weeks ago
She is, and I do.
Brian Barder @ 31 weeks ago
Don't expect more than a zero percent increase in honesty from Gordon Brown if you don't want to be disappointed. Under New Labour the rich got bonuses and incentives while the poor are going to get workfare, coercion and punishments designed to train them to toe the line like dogs. No wonder poor old emotionally stunted Gordon Brown doesn't know what the heck to do or what is going on, he's done so many U-turns that his head must be spinning like a top!
Jeff Harvey @ 31 weeks ago
At last Gordon Brown decided to throw the towel in and resign.



His cabinet colleagues decided it would be a worthy gesture to name a railway locomotive after him. So a senior 'Sir Humphrey' went from Whitehall to the National Railway Museum at York, to investigate the possibilities.



"They have a number of locomotives at the NRM without names," a specially-sought consultant told the top civil servant. "Mostly freight locomotives though."



"Oh dear, that's not very fitting for a prime minister," said Sir Humphrey. "How about that big green one, over there?" he said, pointing to 4472.



"That's already got a name" said the consultant. "It's called 'Flying Scotsman'."



"Oh. Couldn't it be renamed?" asked Sir Humphrey. "This is a national museum after all, funded by the taxpayer."



"I suppose it might be considered," said the consultant. "After all the LNER renamed a number of their locomotives after directors of the company, and even renamed one of them Dwight D Eisenhower."



"That's excellent", said Sir Humphrey, "So that's settled then .. let's look at renaming 4472. But how much will it cost? We can't spend too much, given the expenses scandal!"



Well, said the consultant, "We could always just paint out the 'F'."

Crazy Carrot @ 31 weeks ago
I find it revealing when the left call the reshaping of our economy in the 80s as vindictive. I find it vindictive and utterly amazing that a union of workers can hold an entire country to ransom when they are already receiving taxpayer money to fund their lives.

People forget that while it is a tragedy that people lose their jobs, we're talking about people that are having their lives financed by the taxpayer. If they were contributing to the exchequer then it could be understood but when they are producing something uneconomically and still striking then the line must be drawn. The line was drawn way to late and the consequences became much harder.

Unfortunately these things are happening again. Once again Labour has spent rashly and employed huge numbers of publicly paid people many in unsustainable jobs. Once again they will lose their jobs to relieve the private sector that has paid their wages for the last decade. Such a shame that Labour didn't learn from the 70s and 80s. Once again it is the Tories who have to make the "tough choices" that Brown wont make. I'm sorry to any public servant that will lose their job, you can blame Laboru at the ballot box.
Thomas Snoxell @ 31 weeks ago
As a ex-labour voter I would suggest the key for the Labour Party machine to take from this piece is that the Labour Party is viewed as dishonest and out of touch.

I would go further and suggest The Labour Party is now the Emperor in Hans Anderson's famous fairy tale. The electorate are telling you, you are naked, you have been found out, we know 170 Labour MP's are resigning at the next election and that Gordon can only create a cabinet by bringing in unelected 'life peers' as stop gaps.

When we read that Brown has the support of the French President (in an attempt to get the Lisbon Treaty signed off) we know that there is something sick at the centre of Labour.

The 8% swing to the SNP in Scotland was not a 'protest' but a seismic change in how Scotland views itself. Brown's prevarication over Calman is handing the SNP votes with out them even trying. The mess Ian Gray is making at Holyrood simply opposing the SNP at every turn no matter what is accelerating the process. So with every wave of the Union Flag and trumpeting his 'Britishness' Gordon increasingly alienates the land of Kier Hardy and John MacLean.

If Labour wants to save itself from becoming the third party behind the Libdems in the UK and a laughing stock in Scotland it is time for the grass roots to force their politicians to come clean. We the people know Brown is lying, that politicians get away with apologising to the house for behaviour that would have us heavily fined by the IRS coupled with a prison sentence - so Mr Barder well said; Labour's recovery will require honesty and integrity neither of which are prominent in the current Parliamentary Labour Party or their Scottish equivalent.

You can't full all of the people all of the time.
Peter Thomson @ 31 weeks ago
In the areas of the North I have lived in there really hasn't been a sustained investment, in fact quite the opposite. Communal land, public facilities and industrial sites have been sold and filled with modern flats that remain empty because the selling price is over 6 times the average local wage. The money from the sale of these local assets hasn't gone back into the communities, or even into public services. The public services seem to have reduced whilst the council tax bills have gone up and up.

Training is another matter. I was stupid enough to go to the job centre and ask about training opportunities and ended up being recommended to go on an ECDL course. That would be okay if it wasn't for the fact that I was involved in the creation of an ECDL course a few years earlier. Their next suggestion, admin training. I'd run several businesses and there was nothing wrong with my administration skills and looking at what the course involved, it shouldn't have taken more than a day to complete it, yet it stretched on for 11 weeks. I could pay and go onto a college course, but when I enquired with the local college and looked into their courses, the courses themselves were so outdated and behind the times that a computer course meant to train me for the modern world of computing involved PASCAL and 486-based computers to programme on.

All I'm saying really is that in many areas of the country there has been no carrot, so applying the stick would just be kicking the dog when it is down. Incidently I have no idea on the percentage of people who are unemployed by choice either.

Would you support investment in government-owned industry Mike if it could be proven to be profitable and not subsidised by the taxpayer?
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks ago
I disagree fundamentally with this analysis (as the party line suggested in my post above indicates). Faced with a global recession that could still deteriorate further into a full-blown slump, Brown and Darling had no alternative but to pump money into the economy, first to prevent the entire banking system from collapsing and then to head off a suspension of almost all economic activity, leading to mass bankruptcies, unemployment on the scale of the 1930s, mass destitution, innumerable home repossessions and all the other personal and social catastrophes that such a general collapse would have caused. Since the recession itself was sharply increasing inescapable government spending (e.g. on unemployment benefit, tax credits, and other social security payments due to the first victims of the banking crisis and the recession) and equally sharply reducing revenue (for example from taxes on profits, incomes and consumer spending, all sharply down), additional spending designed to stimulate bank lending and consumer spending could only be funded by additional borrowing. Borrowing on such a large scale of course carries risks and costs, but those who condemn it for that reason have an obligation to describe what less dangerous alternative they would have suggested: no fiscal stimulus, no banking system rescue, with all the appalling consequences I have outlined? Yet that's what the Conservative leadership would have wished on us -- and might yet wish on us if the Tories come into office while we're still in recession.

As for tax reductions, you don't have to be a professional economist to recognise that in a deflationary recession, the last taxes you ought to reduce are those paid only by the very rich (such as inheritance tax, the one tax the Tories are mad keen to abolish or reduce), because the beneficiaries are more likely to save the money they gain than to spend it: and increased savings can only make the recession deeper and more prolonged. The government acted perfectly properly in reducing taxes on those with the highest propensity to spend, and the lowest propensity to save the additional income gained from the tax reduction: including in particular the reduction in VAT, which almost by definition stimulates spending by both consumers and retailers and small businesses, and -- according to most reputable economists -- has already had a beneficial effect. The Tories of course scorned the cut in VAT, being congenitally against reducing taxes on the relatively poor and strongly in favour of cutting taxes on the relatively or absolutely rich: the precise opposite of what's manifestly needed in a recession. Dismissing this as Keynesianism is neither here nor there. It's simple common sense. There'll be plenty of time when we start to come out of recession (but not before) to start cutting government spending, and raising taxes (especially taxes on the richest), to provide extra revenue for starting to pay off some of the debts now being incurred. To do either now, as the Tories would like to do, would be dangerous folly. That, surely, should be Labour's honest and realistic message.
Brian Barder @ 31 weeks ago
Well the "economic miracle" was opening up the City in 1986, if I remmeber rightly. It was and I'll admit the smartest move the Conservatives ever made.
Of course it was never going to be perfect and we are experiencing that now. But what else was there?

This country has been limping for decades economically but the conflict of the Unions and the Right did terrible damage to this country. I support Unions but I don't agree with the manner of thier conduct back then in the 70's.
Hence why the Labour Party had to reform itself.

But "Heseltines revenge on the unions" as described by Alan Clarke in his book, gives full detail on the motivation towards making three million unemployed, it was to get wages down at a time where some people were earning less than one pound an hour.


It was a vindictive assault with little or no regard for the long term economic growth of the country.

As for being a student of economics I don't rate it at all. Economists aren't a popular lot at the moment, thier schools of thought seem based upon how to grab more for the moment and less concened with future. Finite resources is new concept in economics, that is how shallow a subject it truly is.

I'll repeat what I have said before, I don't like Keynes or Milton. I think there general rules are too clumsy for markets and the public sector are incredibly complex in how they operate and chances are in some areas we should be cutting back and in others throwing money into things.


As for British Industry I don't remember a time when it wasn't utter rubbish and I don't remember the conservatives reestablishing it, but I do remember them celebrating the "service economy".

In retrospect I think those 364 economists had a very good long term outlook on things.....lol judging from where we are with the banks.
Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks ago
"Labourlist has consciously tried to move away from the conventional blog where one opinionated individual spouts his/her stuff."

You mean, no more bollocks by the likes of the revolting Draper?

"LabourList's approach is to offer a platform to many (opinionated) posters."

As opposed to people without opinions? Probably a good strategy, I'd say. Meanwhile, with strategic powers of analysis as powerful as that on show, my advice to you, son, would be - don't give up the day job.
Barry Hunt @ 31 weeks ago
Honestly Bill, I don't know. My biggest conflict of the Thatcher years was the post-stabilisation part of the strategy. I grew up in the West Midlands amongst the car plants and component manufacturers.

When the shipyards, car manufacturers etc, had stopped haemorrhaging money and were leaner and fitter - it was then expected they would win back orders. They did for a short while, even the remaining rump of BL made a profit. Of course, they were appealing to overseas business too and many became part of larger concerns.

However, the government was too quick to cut these firms loose, I think there should have been a government golden share for longer in much the way our European neighbours behave.

Bill, I'd like to think no one is unemployed through choice, however, increasing the largesse of the State is not the answer and there has to be some tough love. We have an underclass in this country, we see it on the worst council estates in pockets of deprived parts of the large cities.

Years and years of investment in better education and training have not worked, if this is the carrot, there needs to be a stick too.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks ago
Sorry Max, but it's the expenses that has done us the most harm. Taking for granted goes on across the policical spectrum. The being lied to as well, as leaders on both sides surround themselves with special advisors on policy, David Cameron is no different here with his chums.

It the expenses. It will be the expenses that will hurt us during the General. Labour hate greedy corruption that's why they battle Tories.
So when thier own Minister become weak and corrupt the party suffers. But don't worry yourself, this will be adressed I assure you, I wouldn't want you to be disappointed and find yourselves doing to well in the future. I would expect you to do the same for me.
Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks ago
I wasn't suggesting that the working class were victims of Thatcher, I was suggesting that failed policy after failed policy by successive governments left a portion of society without employment.

I'm not taking away from people like your father Mike who obviously took the bull by the horns and did something about his situation, but there were many who couldn't do that for a variety of reasons. Whether laziness is a factor or hoping that Thatcher would disappear and things would go back to how they were is an argument, but can you honestly say that the thousands and thousands of jobs that had to go in the early 80s have ever been replaced with anything constructive?

There is nothing romantic or rosy about how I'm viewing this Mike, I'm looking at it from the perspective that a generation have been abandoned. That may not have been your experience during that time frame, but that doesn't go for everyone in all the regions of the UK. I started work when I was 9 years old and openly flouted the law with regards to child employment, but I wanted to earn money and I knew if I worked hard on the local farms, matching what the adults did, I would get some decent money together. That doesn't mean that I don't understand why the laws were in place and the fact that children in other regions may have been exploited if they started work at nine. Does that make sense? My personal experience was a good one, I earned a lot of money, but I can appreciate that others elsewhere in the same position did not.

Could I ask, what percentage of those currently unemployed do you think remain there by choice Mike? Genuine question.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks ago
Brian, I don't agree with everything in your post,
but found it cogent and interesting.
Congratulations to LabourList for publishing it.

Labourlist has consciously tried to move away from the conventional blog where one opinionated individual spouts his/her stuff.
LabourList's approach is to offer a platform to many (opinionated) posters.

But the essence of the blogosphere is that the originators of the posts should respond to comments.
How many of your Cabinet minister posters have responded to the comments on their posts?
Well done, Brian, for doing so.
Hamish D @ 31 weeks ago
Speaking as one of those kids when my father was laid off from his third job in three years; he refused to be beaten and it instilled in me a core belief.

He didn't sit on his arse and blame Thatcher whilst he waited for his friends in the unions and the Labour Party to win back power. He was sick of the union foreman giving jobs to his mates; sick of the union dues with the sole aim of building funds to start strikes and sick of being kept in his place in favour of union men through and through.

A lot of revisionist rubbish romanticises the 'working class' victims of Thatcherism. There was no such thing; there were plenty of people though thinking she was only a flash in the pan and things would go back to 'normal'.

My father turned his back on the lot of them and got a lot of aggro for good measure, he took a job with one of the new inward investor firms and took every training opportunity going, getting a HND part-time and through sheer hard work made his way into a well paying job. I remember he came home so tired, he'd fall asleep before his tea. His brother famously crossed the picket line when BL finally had the sense to sack Red Robbo.

Labour were summarily and comprehensively rejected by the working class at the time; that is forgotten.

My father grafted and the message it sent to us kids was nothing was free, expect nothing and make your own way in life.

Of the politics of the early 1980s, after Thatcher's first term, Labour campaigned to return us to 1979 and undo all that hard work. It was the denial of the Labour Party and particularly the dinosaurs in the unions that held their workers back; typified the most by Scargill trying to bring the government down again.

These people were not put on the scrapheap deliberately; they refused to accept the world around them had changed and they yearned for life getting paid for doing little and a nice cosy government to run their lives for them.

The rest is romantic twoddle of the highest order.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks ago
What annoys traditional Labour supporters is
a) being ignored and/or taken for granted; and
b) being lied to shamelessly.

17 years ago David Mellor got caught lying about having a toe-sucking affair with a (reasonably) attractive woman (whom he had the decency to bed outside his place of work - unlike one grotesque Deputy PM one could mention...). Another Tory MP, Jonathan Aitken, did go to prison for perjury, but his lying was also about personal matters - it was not endemic to the government of the day, and not the modus operandi of the Prime Minister and senior Ministers.

Brown lies about virtually everything. He can't help himself any more. This almost pathological character flaw reached its nadir when he stood before the assembled press corp and - after saying that his father taught him to tell the truth at all times - flatly denied he had planned to replace Darling as Chancellor in the last re-shuffle. Even battle-hardened hacks were shell-shocked at the bare-faced audacity - and utter stupidity - of such a performance.

Be honest with us - and yourself: do you actually believe a single word of what the likes of Brown and Balls say?
Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Hopefully I'm understanding 'unemployed occupied' correctly and for the most part I would agree with you that those who were subsidised did believe what they were told at the time and yes, they pushed it and the golden goose was slaughtered, hung out to dry and the 'occupied' became unoccupied.

The problem with the Conservative culling of geese was that they didn't have any forward planning. What were those 3 million people supposed to do? I mean look at it another way. You have been in employment from the age of 15 and subsidised or not, you learned to essentially dig holes or move molten metal around relatively safely. Then you're out of a job and the most constructive retraining programme you are offered is learning how to type, or file documents. You're sent to a job centre where you are told to produce a CV. As an employer, would you be impressed with a CV that reads as follows:

Name: Joe Bloggs
Age: 47
Qualifications: St Johns Ambulance First Aid
Previous Employment: 31 years moving coal from the bottom of the pit to the top of the pit

I realise I'm being simplistic about this and I don't want to insult or belittle anyone, but you see my point? The people refered to now as the 'Great Unwashed' were made redundant and there was nothing there to replace the jobs that had gone. No investment, no real training programmes and no diginity for them as they were treated like scum by local authorities who automatically labelled them as lazy.

They had kids already, kids who would have followed their parents into manual labour or maybe a skilled profession like welding or pipe fitting, but the jobs had disappeared. The children see their fathers and mothers on the dole queue and rightly or wrongly begin to live a life on welfare. The irresponsible part comes from those children then having children of their own without any means to support their offspring, but thats another debate. The fact is, had the investment followed in the first instance we wouldn't have the state of affairs we have now.

Politically it is all well and good for Labour to put the whole blame onto the Conservatives, but again, its not that simple. Thatchers government were in a similar position to the one we're in now. A war had just ended and the troops were coming home. The public sector was bloated and needed trimming down. And there was a real need to balance the books after the collapse in financial terms of the Labour government in the late 1970s. There were reasons that came about, but we'd be here all day on that one.

The point is this is there has been a collective failure by many governments over a sustained period that has caused a problem, but what is the solution to it? Remove the welfare state and end up with anarchy? Carry on as we are and end up bankrupt as a nation? Or think up a sensible method to bring things back into line without getting into the party political elements too much in the meantime?
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Nonesense. the only thing that has occured is that many traditional Labour supporters were upset by the expenses issue. Nobody has evne latched onto the non-existent Tory policies to not address any real issue.

Well I remember David Mellor lying rather clumsily and stupidly, hmm I could go on. In fact you had one MP go to prison for purgery which is the capital of lying stupidly and clumsily....but your point a) is a good one. People are tired of the same government wonder who they are going to vote for though?
Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Ralph,

The 3 million unemployed were the latent effects of Labour nationalised industries being uncompetitive thanks to years of chronic under-investment and years of restrictive working practices.

Students of economics know that as an indicator of economic performance, the rate of increase/decrease in unemployment is the most lagged of all; unemployment will increase for years after the impact of economic policy on the economy.

Economies do not suddenly shed two million workers if they are making products that people want to buy.

Ralph, British industry had become a by-word for utter rubbish. Car plants had night-shift workers asleep on the job, going on strike for little or no reason. KGB infiltration of unions as a means to disrupt industry was rife. They were not concerned with making quality products; they were concerned with sticking one on the bosses.

I remember what Britain made for export in the 1970s, it was the most shoddy and unreliable rubbish imaginable. Tory economic policy of the early 1980s was to first get the country towards a balanced budget. Our industry was rotten and much of it beyond repair; the first thing the Tories did was actually implement 'In Place of Strife' a 1968 Labour White Paper to reform the unions.

In terms of their intervention, it didn't stop the Tories putting £60bn in today's money into Austin Rover Group at the time to try and save some of it.

We had nationalised industries that had lost their way absolutely irrevocably, they made things people didn't want, they cost the taxpayers billions in subsidies and truculent union management living in total denial.

We had the then record government deficit of 57% GDP (oh to have that now), 83% top rate of tax, a phone line took three months to install, endless strikes, at times 20%+ inflation, years of incomes policies, currency controls, credit controls.

The country was a basket case in 1979.

Keynesian v Monetarist economics is laid out in the works of Keynes, Galbraith, Von Mises, Hayek, Friedmann. I don't need supporting argument, they are key tenets that any student of economics would know.

I'll give you another fact though in 1981, 364 economists wrote in The Times that Tory economic policy was wrong, in fact it laid to path to what many called an economic miracle in putting the worst performing European economy back onto the tracks in a very short space of time.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Many of those who became 'unemployed' never had real jobs in the first place they had been the 'unemployed occupied' for years.

Instead of sponging off the state taking dole, and being available for new productive jobs as they were created; they had been sponging off the state being paid for performing unproductive, taxpayer subsidised activities.

There was a general conspiracy to pretend that these activities were 'jobs' and deserved 'respect', but once the pretend workers started to believe their own myth, they pushed too hard and killed their golden goose.

I was rather pleased not to be paying to feed another mans golden goose any more; but its not so good that brown has spent the past decade finding new ways to extort and waste my money.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
John,

I disagree. Had Gordon Brown not acted and left the banks to fall we would be in dire straits. He did act, not perfectly but h had a very small window of time to act and as this event has not occured before in living memory he had no precedent. I am proud of his work on the economy and with G20. I support the man because after all the work I have seen here in South Korea the mitigating affect of the fiscal stimulus here. Though of course the economy here is different in its composition.

I have yet to hear anyone of any party suggest better action than was fdone at the time, we had some dissident comments from the Germans who ended copying us anyway.

Of course borrowing is going higher now, but I feel that we are on new territory here, the investment of the second world war ended the great depression, however the investment in the 70's did not sort out the issues back then.. So both the Keynes and Milton have been right and wrong.

For me I have always considered both economists to be too reckless.
Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
I think that any party wishing to be elected is going to have to - in Mark Twain's phrase - 'stretch the truth'.

The unpalatable fact is that our economy has been so ruined in the past decade, that only deep, meaningful and sustained cuts the length and breadth of the public spending will get us out of the dire straights Brown and Co have sailed us into.

The public knows this - and that is why they will vote for a party that
a) has not been in charge for the past dozen years; and
b) does not lie to them so obviously and callously - and stupidly.
Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Yes Mike,

We felt the full force of Tory economic policy in the 80's and 90's. I observe you have not mentione the 3 million made unemployed amongst many other FACTS.

Your not actuall comparing the facts at all, you state individual facts and then go on to describe the differences between the two main schools of economics without any supporting facts. You also fail to identify the underlying causes of the economic situation, the world boom in the early 80's is merely one example notwithstanding the current mess most countries are not enjoying.

I suggest you build up a stronger economic arguement and use your FACTS in a meaningful manner.
Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Brian, Your "most scathing and pungent critic" appears to be a woman of some considerable intelligence. Perhaps you should run your posts by her prior to posting them.
Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
The tactics currently being employed by the Labour Party are no different to those used by the Conservative government of 1996. They ran an unsuccessful campaign 'New Labour, New Danger' and although many will look back and wonder prophetic that campaign was, at the time the electorate shunned it for what it was, an attempt to demonise the Labour Party and from what we were all being told at the time, the Labour Party were now new and refreshed, with great ideas that would change the face of Britain forever.

Things have been changed, but not necessarily for the better, so now the electorate demand change again. That could be in the form of a new leader for the Labour Party who actually has a likeable personality and can be trusted by the electorate to tell the truth once in every while, or it could be a total change of government, bringing in a visibly more sensible and organised Conservative party than the one that left office in 1997. I suspect the latter is the most likely and no amount of kicking or screaming will change the minds of the millions who know that GB is lying. I have a 10 year old son who is currently learning about Parliament and politics, even he knows he's lying and he told me why this last weekend.

I said it a couple of months back, a win is highly improbable, but leaving office with some form of dignity, without resorting to name calling or lying to the electorate may just provide a platform with the electorate for future elections, but the damage that has been done since the European elections can not now be reversed. GB announced a more transparent system, then he decided to conduct Malik's expenses in private. He promised to listen, then rose taxes yet again and his constant refusal to accept he and his cabinet are wrong on a number of issues has pretty much sealed the fate of the Labour Party for a minimum of one term, but I suspect good old Gordon will present some more reasons to the electorate over the next few months that could see that one term into several.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
I naturally reject the suggestion that the alternative line which I suggest in my post for Labour entails telling lies. (But I would, wouldn't I?)

As for the advice to refrain from criticising Mr Balls in a blog post for fear of prompting telephone calls demanding that I withdraw it, I'm prepared to take that risk, and bracing myself to wait for the phone to start ringing....
Brian Barder @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
There are certain people - politicians especially,who you may not like, but you respect their opinions and statements. But there are others - and Mr Balls is one of them - who I neither like nor trust: he is a young(ish) man in a hurry, who will say anything or do anything, just to further his own career. Of course, considering he is Gordon's best mate (or is that Mandelson now?) he is getting to be as detatched from reailty as his mentor.
Alan Giles @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Note: since losing his pet pal 'Mr McBride', Balls has to do the attack dog work himself.
Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Since I wrote this, my most scathing and pungent critic (Reader, I married her) has shown me a remarkable leading article in the Spectator magazine which refers to some instructive communications from the same Mr Balls. The Schools Secretary -- for it was he -- objected furiously, it seems, to a Spectator blog post on much the same lines as parts of this, if in blunter language, demanding strenuously that the Spectator should 'take it down'. (Happily, we can still read the offending post here.) Now Matthew d'Ancona, the editor of the Spectator and one of the two recipients of the angry calls from Mr Balls, confirms the story with even greater relish in his column in the Observer of 5 July. Oh, dear. Perhaps the Schools Secretary did write that circular after all.
Brian Barder @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Brian, you seem to want to replace one set of lies ("Tory cuts, Labour invests") with another set of lies based on a misleading reading of the current economic situation, combined with false assumptions of what Tory spending plans actually are.

Ed balls cannot deny or disown his own stupid message ("Tory cuts, Labour invests") published in his newsletter as he has repeatedly made this claim - and he is indeed, with his master, the prime source of such patently idiotic and demonstrably false statements. (Just one example: So the dividing line at the next election won't simply be about Labour investment versus Tory cuts". 5 minutes on Google will yield dozens of similar examples).

I would refrain from criticising Balls, Brian, as he a nasty habit of phoning up bloggers and demanding that they withdraw their posts if he feels affronted or maligned in any way. Using a Labour-supporting site to (correctly) demonstrate to one and all that Balls's stated policy is synonymous with his own surname is likely to annoy the little man even further.

Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
Brian,

Labour's economic competence is gone, again. It is worse than UK (pound in your pocket) devaluation of 1968, the IMF bail-out of 1976 or the Winter of Discontent of 1979. We've had over 10 years of 'no more boom and bust'.

Labour's epitaph to economic competence.

Labour set out their Red Book and they set out their spending cuts programme in it, allow for inflation and the rise in unemployment (using all the government's own figures) and it involves cuts of 7% in real terms across the board from 2011. FACT

By ringfencing international development and health, using the same calculations as the government, a 10% cut in real terms is required elsewhere from 2011. FACT

Adding education to the ringfence, a 13.5% cut is required in real terms elsewhere from 2011. FACT

You cannot whine about asset values coming to the rescue of CAPITAL EXPENDITURE it will make little difference to the reduction in real terms in government spending.

Somebody please tell Gordon Brown.

Labour cannot use this disgusting dog whistle any more because of the utter incompetence of one Mr. Brown. He has been caught well and truly out misleading Parliament and the electorate.

Also, it is clear you are not an economist.

Tory economic policy is only 'illiterate' to the Keynesians (which suddenly despite them being as fashionable as shoulder pads until recently) now back in vogue. They argue to spend more in a recession to make up for a loss of income.

One very big problem; Keynesians also argue that you run up a surplus in the good times, which Gordon did not actually manage to do.

Tory economic policy is certainly more Monetarist who argue that recessional recovery is about stoking up aggregate demand, cutting taxes to increase disposable income to help people.

When you consider that government spending is currently unproductive (it does not return a positive return for every £1 spent) actually stopping the destruction of wealth in this way would be far more preferable at a time of recession.

As for helping the low paid - who removed the 10p tax rate? It wasn't those beastly Tories.

Labour will cut taxes? When have Labour since 1997 actually reduced the overall tax take on the economy? They haven't. Trusted to cut taxes, is that some kind of joke?

Lastly, as this country will need to finance a 14% GDP deficit next year (twice the level of the IMF default of 1976), swingeing cuts are exactly what is needed to get the economy anywhere near balance.

10% a year is nothing, neither is 13.5%.

I'll leave you with one last question: Who met last week to discuss an emergency austerity 'Plan B' budget with immediate cuts of over 20% in government spending?

Clue: Of the three main parties; it wasn't the Tories or Lib Dems.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
"Time to drop the dishonest “Tories cut, Labour invests” mantra"

If only Gordon would listen...
Paul 'hit or miss as to whether my comments will make it through' Pinfield @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago
The borrowing run up by Brown between 01 and 08 - a small matter of £200 billion - is the sea anchor that will drag on the economy for years.

Once the extra cost of the interest on this and the extra £500 billion he plans to borrow in the period 09-16 is added to it, we will be lucky to survive. That's why Labour need to go.

Conservative reductions in business taxes will encourage investment and growth - increasing taxes on high earners will reduce both.

Brown is economically illiterate and led us in to this mess with unprecedented levels of borrowing - but then he's a socialist and socialists always ruin the economy.
John Moss @ 31 weeks and 1 day ago