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There was an interesting article in the Independent on Sunday about declining membership levels in the Conservative party, with research suggest a 21.5% drop since David Cameron's election as leader. But the phenomenon is not unique to the Tories, Labour too have seen drastic falls in membership levels since 1997.
One could argue that the race to the 'centre ground' of British politics has led to the larger parties losing touch with their 'core vote' and becoming somewhat less inspirational. Whatever the cause, a dangerous by-product of this drop in membership is a real change in where parties obtain their funding.
Political parties are supposed to be popular movements, campaigning for the country to governed in one particular way or another, organised and funded by their members. But when membership levels start to fall, parties are obliged to turn to other sources for funding. The big three parties seem now to be more interested in soliciting donations from millionaires than from members.
But while members expect little return from their contributions, millionaires quite naturally expect something more than a quarterly newsletter and a little plastic card from theirs. In other words, a level of corruption is apparently now necessary in order to obtain adequate funding for a political party.
While there are of course some wealthy supporters who genuinely back a particular political party and expect nothing in return for their donations, the increasing reliance on affluent donors is worrying. One solution to the problem could be state-funded political parties - removing the need to seek shady donations just to cover a party's day-to-day expenses.
It could be argued that this would be the final nail in the coffin for the 'popular movement' - but the essence of a popular movement could be retained in such a system if the amount of funding a party received was proportional to its membership, with membership and funding of parties being overseen by an independent regulator.
Inevitably though, such a system would not address the key question - what is it about the main political parties today that has caused so many of their members to leave, and so few new members to join? Clearly the best solution to the problem of party funding is to reinvigorate politics.
The Obama campaign showed that when politics is inspirational millions of ordinary people will donate - for example more than three million online donors gave an average of around each. Obama was shrewd to turn down public funding in favour of private donations. Whether this was done for ideological or financial reasons is debatable, but it does show that the traditional model of the 'popular movement' is still by far the most powerful force in politics.
The challenge for British parties is to inject some of this enthusiasm into our own political scene. I'm sure many voters feel that there are too few dividing lines between the main parties, that it almost doesn't matter who they vote for any more. It is this crisis of ideology, or perhaps lack of it, that must be addressed if we are to have parties which are popular movements and keep politics in the hands of the people.
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Very moving comments. I am sure Guy will enjoy your comments.
In Unity
MA
such is life.
OH is all bluster - no bite.
such is our brethren who don't want Labour but still want to be valued - on a site where Labour minded people come together.
They get our love though. They inspire us...we inspire them.
as the saying love inspires. I wish all good health.
I don't understand how Guy continuously demands to be left alone and not to be bothered by anybody, and yet, and yet, he is sooooooooo willing to inflict his views on everybody else. Still sometimes makes for interesting reading.
In Unity
MA
Is Guy M a masochist? I think we should be told ....
I tend to agree that the electorate are not amused with what has happened recently within and around the Labour Party and as I'm sure you're already aware, neither am I, but you don't seriously belief that the majority hold similar views to yours Guy? Some maybe, but others and especially the way you word them would have a large number of people either laughing or standing with their mouths open in shock.
I wasn't attempting to trade insults with you incidently, I was genuinely asking whether you were going to be leaving the LL after the elections.
Grocho claimed that Margaret was the perfect comic foil to his wit because she had no sense of humour or any idea as to what was going on comically around her in any of her roles; this bewildered innocence made her appear hysterically funny to audiences.
Same with you, Guy.
It is your white knuckled seriousness and passion unleavened by a single grain of playfulness and humour that make you comments so diverting.
God bless you and all who sail in you!
The next thing you'll say is that your dad can beat up my dad or similar!
How old are you? Twelve?
I really don't think Guy has any idea of how amusing he really is, albeit unintentionally. Just mention anything to the left of Atilla the Hun; give Guy a soapbox to stand on or carpet to chew; stand back and enjoy the fun!
Long may he remain the comedic Conservative curmudgeon of Labour List.
Bless.
And given this is one of the 3 ineliminable elements of an ideology I'd like to thank Mr Bendle for answering the question that was beyond Mr ..
Conservatism
Socialism
Feminism
Third wayism???
Spot the odd one out
ps - PJ O Rourke is a legend :)
The reason some of don't think it deserves the term is that doesn't really have any ideals about the nature of human life and society. It's like saying an instruction to a football team to do whatever it takes to get the ball in the net is "tactics; the ideology is that there is no ideology.
"A clarion call to whatever" as PJ O Rourke called it.
Lame.
cameron has presented the Tories as hip.cool.
Sir George perhaps is less in that category than Mr Cameron has presented the modern Tories to be.
Sir George Young is a fine counterbalance to Tony Wright - both members of the Liason Commitee as chairman of other commitees. Both seen as ethical and well meaning with a longstanding interest in the reform of parliament.
Sir George Young is old school - a grandee...and Mr Cameron has chosen to distance himself from some of 'em. why?
Most crucial though is how pro-anti Europe Sir George is. Is he pragmatic enough to get closer to Europe if our international standing depends on it.....
For me this is a area of great confusion. One nation Tory implies pragmatism above all else? Is he such or is he from the Norman tebbit end of the party. Perhaps soemone can enlighten.
Am I wrong in thinking that the One Nation Tories will side with Europe and against isolationism when our international standing depends on it - to the extent that we may have no say on international bodies as an individual Westen Europe country - i.e in (not so distant?) future we may not have an international voice out side EU.
I agree. Though double standards is something i suppose we must not accuse our politcal leadership of....
Having said that the change is in the right direction.
co-incidently it also strengthens the ken clarke-chrisPatten axis.
From the Tories I know they'd be deeply upset to be told they agree with you as much as disagree.
Marx was right, it's a battle between left/right and middle class/ working class and there can be no middle bround, agreement and no compromise.
If ever the Tory party work with or align themselves with leftwing policy they lose my membership, support, vote, money and time.
You and your ideas are to be opposed by the right Peter, never agreed with or tolerated.
He may not get much criticism compared to brown, but then what responsibilities/duties has he got? The worst Cameron could do is damage the conservative party - Brown is damaging every family and individual (even some not yet born) in this country (and many abroad).
Oh, and the tory policies of Blair.
And now there's only the corporate seekers who have cash to offer. Whops! Gordon's mad public spending has put them off too.
There's still the unions. Except they've decided that Labours policies are too anti-union to waste their members' subscriptions on.
What goes around comes around.
And so you're seeking to raid taxpayers pockets to fund morally bankrupt self-serving politicians with an 'independent' regulator? Who regulates the regulator?
Third Way is a strand of thought within Social Democracy (an ideology), which seeks to better allign the goals of Social Democracy (ideological goals) with new political and economic realities.
I suppose it's Churchill's philosophy of not criticising one's country abroad.
Sure and Blair was ideological as Daniel. claimed. That must have been why he paid so much attention to focus groups.
As for the book, do what you want. It's beyond my ability to sum up a 600 page academic study right here.
So much easier just to copy and paste from a dictionary site eh MB5000?
Gordomort is indeed sucking the life blood from me and my family - but we can probably survive till the next election - the real question is how long it will take for the next government to turn things around, and if we can survive till they do.
Have you not realised? They're not dying - the Dark Lord is murdering you all in your beds one by one.
And you thought he couldn't win Labour a fourth term! Naive, TT, naive.
alan "I live on rations" duncan gets the sack.
(source:daily telegraph)
Beware Mr Cameron - you may yourself get the sack one day.
No, that's a statement of morality. Not punching strangers on the head doesn't come with an attendant superstructure of social and historical narratives. An ideology, by its nature, tends to provide a totalising explanation of ethics, knowledge and even aesthetics.
So long as you left me alone and didn't bother me you'd do as well as any other.
What I see is perfect examples of how Labour have destroyed the UK over 12 years and why it is imperative that they are removed at the earliest opportunity almost irrespective of who follows them.
I suspect that a large % of the general public also finds nothing "amusing" about my views but a weary cynicism about you, your views and the whole left wing political class you represent.
Labour is at a historic low in the polls, the BNP vote goes up, overall turn out is down, party membership goes through the floor and distrust with politicians is at an all time high. That is the Labour legacy so if you think I amuse you then god help your political movements because the public are far from amused with you and yours
You're not telling me to read a book, you're just telling me to buy it from Amazon? If you're using a different definition of the word ideologue that proves your point, tell us what it is.
The "third way" was quite clearly an ideology and not one I necessarily disagreed with. The idea of combining the best of socialism and capitalism seemed a quite sensible goal to me.
Help yourself
I'm inclined to agree with you. Every time I'm about to, you label me or my friends and family as an underclass or a criminal for going to a state comp or living on a council estate at some point.
If we could find a railway track to live either side of, we'd be great neighbours.
You can't be doing that, you make me laugh in a way no one else does on nearly a daily basis! I've paid a good few quid out to go and watch comedians who haven't amused me as much as you do.
I think it says more about humanity as a whole than it does about either party.
The point is that the term is used as a meaningless pejorative. Saying that you believe it's wrong to punch random strangers in the back of the head is a statement of ideology. Any manifesto produced by a political party could be equally described as ideology or reasoned principles and policy suggestions depending on your standing.
If you're using some uncommon definition of ideologue please enlighten me. Link it or type it - telling someone to read a book in an internet debate could be taken as an argument from authority.
>
How can we channel our energies to finding politicians/creating a system of democracy that we trust.
You are an insider Guy. and if you do not trust politicians....what hope is there for the rest of us.
You can't handle the concept that the general public doesn't want or need your advice or attention can you?
n. pl. i·de·ol·o·gies
1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.
If Blair wasn't ideological then he must have just been like chameleon Dave. No real principles, just doing whatever was people wanted at the time. Unfortunately, pragmatism only seems to be a positive virtue when the pragmatist has the same goals as you (the general, not specific) do.
probaly the issue based smaller party membership have gone up - as well as the likes of compass and progress. The issue of the difficulty of influencing the party is very pertinent. Perhaps the solutions lie in open primaries, audits of the office of our elected representatives and local democracy. The hard core that is us lot are online as that is as effective a way as anyone to influence.
voter numbers are small.In the mix is also the to mind the critical fact that the public service minded ethical politicians who have the maturity to be leaders of our community are hard to spot.
Well, since I'm not a member of any party, and your constant recourse is 'a plague on all your (parliamentary) houses, I wonder how you're going to deal with those 'real' problems without collective action, and perhaps some governance, Charlie?
Short of answering how that can be done about Bank deregulation in your scheme of things, we're just going round in circles.
Hence I cut the Gordian knot, and ask how a libertarian solution (no government action, only freely assembling individuals) can solve it
I think its more that the parties have converged and that its really quite difficult to influence them unless you are in a very tight-knit inner circle. So, people with strong views find that they are not heard and cannot have much of a say.
As a palliative why not adopt a policy of mutual and reciprocal shunning as far as loquacious left wingers are concerned? Labour List will avoid you (like a centre of pestilence) and you in turn will desist from commenting on Labour List, quid pro quo.
Is it a deal?
One could have an argument about whther the Third Way was ideology or pragmatism, but you cannot seriously argue that Cameron is not ideological whereas Blair is/was? If so, then "Compassionate Conservatism" is an ideology.
Anyway, why do you think I should want to suggest ways to reinvigorate the Labour Party?
All I am saying is that there is a very obvious trend amongst certain posters on LL that they are here to defend the Conservatives no matter what and will under no circumstance, acknowledge the obvious issues within their own party
I came to the conclusion that I trust all politicians little more than I trust the sun not to come up tomorrow morning.
Society can go hang, community can go with it. Leave me alone and stop bothering me, I need no advice, help or calls for my "contribution".
I suspect that is the reason for falling membership. Do-gooding busy bodies like we find endlessly on LL are the reason why the general public want nothing to do with politics.
You've highlighted the problem yourself, why deal with the real problems like the continuation of the failed banking system, permawar or the environment when petty pointless rule making is so much easier and more enjoyable to our petty, joyless government.
Yes voting is great, at the risk of being called names, we should have one on Europe sometime. 'Something new to say' when all you and LL can manage is 'not quite as bad as the Toriezz!!'?
What happened to thinking of something new to say?
My take BTW on these libertarian talking points is: yes, the state should be monitored and controlled (thank god a think called voting exists to help in that) but we must also be protected from corporations and other bodies (credit rating agencies etc) not to mention other individuals (knife wielding crazed scouts) who would impinge on our liberties.
Law is one of the ways we protect our freedoms... and what underwrites the Law?
So little William Hague was right all them years ago....
Me, I hate the middle-class champagne-socialist interlopers who have all but destroyed the Labour Party. When the tories do get in, I know who I'll be blaming and it won't be David Cameron.
That's quite funny Peter when we are reduced to not being able to hear a single sentence from a government minister that hasn't been learned from an emailed script!
This could have all been avoided if there was just the slightest recognition that perhaps things aren't all rosy in the Tory garden, but oh no, you mustn't show weakness when you're a troll, what would the billy goats think?
Younger people tend not to be bothered about 'making up numbers' or just 'being a member' - if they really want to get involved and do stuff then they will join, if not they will not...
The tories don't need any help from me to get elected, Brown is doing more than anyone else ever could...
The drop in Labour numbers seems to be people who joined in the early blair 'glory' days not wanting to be associated with what labour has become responsible for...
Without online suppoty, their IQ has dropped below room temperature.
A 'blip' perhaps?
Couldn't be the SNP have policies that a growing number of Scots folk think are good for Scotland, nah, it couldn't be that. It must just be a 'blip'; just like the SNP's sustained 28% vote share in the week after Megarhi was supposed to be a disaster for the SNP - according to Labour in Scotland.
Maybe the big three no longer are seen to be addressing members needs and expectations, that might just explain the decline.
Blair wasn't ideological, he was famous for rejecting it in favour of 'what works' (whatever that meant).
Is it just me or has the standard of trolling dropped off recently?
It WOULD be a good way to re-engage with members. And Brown DID bully his way into the top job thereby trampling the wishes of members...
And William Hague's tenure was a failure for different reasons. LESS OF THE STATIC ANALYSIS.
The fact remains. Labour is dying, and you do not even want to suggest ways to reinvigorate the party. Well done.
Says the person who doesn't see it as a problem for the Tories that they're shedding members when this is as good as it gets for them.
You have a keen sense of irony Mr ., I'll give you that.
(Just the one 'r' in burying by the way)
By that logic Hague should have attracted members, (but he didn't), and Blair should have lost them in the mid 90s (but he didn't).
The libertarian loons not withstanding, there is now a growing consensus around the old ideological battles of the past. Just as the cold war has ended, the difference between a social democrat and a conservative these days, on economics, is not around the huge issues of privatisation versus nationaliaation; on social policy, respect for minorities of different ethnicities, religions or sexual orientation, is enshrined in laws like civil partnerships: even the great old culture wars about the Church, fox hunting, etc etc. are a thing of the past. There has been a decline of mass movements in politics because, except round the edges, there really are no huge ideological gulfs anymore around the mixed economy, or importing cruise missiles, or closing down the mining industry.
It's just a thought to put into the mix. I certainly feel (despite the trolls one finds on LL) that actually there has been more political consensus for the last couple of decades, compared to the two before them. In the 80s, rather like democrats in the US now, I wouldn't even consider dating someone from the opposite party. I knew few Tories, and when I did, it was a point of ideological contention so great (South Africa/Cruise/Falklands) there was no way we could be friends. Now I find there's just as much we agree on as we don't...
When politics is boring, it's probably a sign of success. It may get more interesting in the next decade, but what do the Chinese say?
Cursed be you who live in interesting times.
Actually it didn't take a particularly long period in office; they've been losing members since 1999, I believe. At the 97 election they had about 400,000; by 2001 it was 311,000. As I've mentioned elsewhere, Blair provided a much bigger boost to the numbers than Cameron, but then the Tories' membership hadn't fallen as low.
I see now, thanks xxx
However it does give you the opportunity to build an entirely new 'party' structure - something that the public have been calling for...
Your MPS won't like it (neither will union bosses) - but they are really part of the problem - make the labour party 'the peoples party' using modern technology, honesty and openness - ditch the entire current generation of hopeless individuals (anyone who didn't challenge brown head on should be made to regret it as much as the public do).
Its your only chance -- browns party must be dead and buried before labour can ever be taken seriously again.
That and people are fed up of being lied to and let down time after time after time.
But this is not a total collapse like Labour is experiencing. This is borderline terminal.
Labour really do have a crisis of purpose and direction which is demonstrated by its crumbling membership. To try to blame this on a wider phenomenon is to bury your head in the sand.
You should better focus on why members and voters are deserting Labour in their droves.
Yes Labour are shedding members but that is to be expected at the end of a long period in office.
The Tories on the other hand are doing well in the polls, have a popular leader (apparently) and are expected to form a government within 9 months which makes it very odd that this isn't being translated into increased or at the very least stable membership.
Comparing Labour and Tory membership trends is pointless given their respective positions in the cycle. Tory v Lib Dem would be more interesting.
deliver on thier promises.The difference between them is negligble but they pretend that they are so different.
The British Public want one thing, to be governed by honest and clever people not the useless Party hacks that are offered.
We go from one Party to another when the stench of lies and corruption becomes unbearable but we know who ever is elected next will continue down the same path and end up as hated as Major, Bliar and now Brown.
EU membership even though every poll says the British want out? the Politicians continue to lie lie lie but keep signing away all of our rights.
Thieves Cheats Spivs and Liars inhabit the House and whenever caught are never punished but instead promoted.
Taxes keep on rising because of appaling management of the Economy and the
ever increasing burden of the Public Sector.
To force upon us the most disgusting piece of Propoganda/ Legislation in the form of the Human Rights Act, laws to protect the Murderers, thieves and Paedophiles.
Green Poltics the biggest scam used to force more unwanted Legislation and biased opinions on us and nothing more than an excuse to raise Taxes.
The War on Terror is nothing more than an excuse to invade Countries with Oil and then allow the USA and the UK to murder and steal without Punishment.
I could go on but to do so will only depress me further...Great Britian needs the Great to be removed, we are nothing more than a lacky to Europe and the U.S.
When did we finally give up on our own people? why do we allow millions to come here and take the jobs, houses and services we have paid for?
We are a busted Nation created by the non entities lined up to rule us since the end of WW2. A bunch of useless (always proved as once as ministerial post is given)never had a real wealth creating job in thier lives MPs.
Does being compassionate improve our lives in some way? (I would argue it does, or at least can) Then fine, let's talk about how that works. I support the idea of equal opportunties not because of the principle, but because I think more open societies, drawing from as wide a talent pool as possible, ar more likely to be more materially successful. And perhaps less unhappy.
This is germane to the article above, because Morys says ordinary party members don't expect much for their subs. This suggests they see the sub as a kind of sacrifice to a cause. But in the days when Labour was a mass movement, most working class people DID expect material reward in the end - better housing, healthcare and so on.
One last thing - I thought it was a bit strange that Morys avoided mention of the U-word in relation to Labour funding,, but perhaps I'm old fashioned.
But them I am probably in a minority thinking 'Compassionate conservatism' is complete nonsense - it is not for a party to be compassionate or otherwise it is for individuals to be compassionate (or otherwise).
Same as my criticism of labour taking 'credit' for increased spending... whose bl*ddy money is it that they are spending? If they think there is some glory to be had, then it goes to the private sector taxpayers who generated the wealth to pay for that spending...
Politics used to be different but until we get rid of New Labour and get back to basics, people will not be able to see what we stand for. I sometimes wonder.
Unless they are already 100% certain that there is *nothing* they can do about the collapse of labour...
I joined the tories when labour brought in IR35 (b*stards) left when howard said ID cards were a good idea (b*stard) joined again when blair broke his promise to serve a full term (b*stard) and handed the reins to brown (b*stard) and left again when cameron gave ken clarke a shadow cabinet post (b*stard) (plus a few other bits - eu treaty vacillation, IDS nonsense, spelman etc) now NHS and foreign aid ring fenced, so staying out.
But I'd happily pay £25 to get rid of Clarke, shut up IDS, put the EU in its place, commitment to small government and low tax...
Saying that there is a simple answer to the question "what is it about the main political parties today that has caused so many of their members to leave, and so few new members to join?"
Lies, corruption and the greed of politicians.
There is one popular movement that is dying in terms of membership - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2475301/Labour-membership-falls-to-historic-low.html
... and that will very soon be killed at the ballot box.