By Ellie Levenson / @EllieLevenson
I posted a message on Twitter recently, in the midst of discussions in the news about whether Labour would put people forward to share a platform with the BNP. My message was simple. It said: “For the record, I would not share a platform, Question Time or other, with BNP representative.” One of the responses I got was from a Conservative Party member who lives in the same constituency as me. His response: “would they share one with YOU?” (His capitals not mine). And you know what, I suspect they wouldn’t. Because I am Jewish.
There is a very simple reason why no other political party should share a platform with the BNP. That is because they are racist. We can make other arguments too including arguments about lies and intimidation – but that they are racist should be enough.
When we argue against other mainstream parties we disagree on points of policy and on ideology. They might want us to have a different type of relationship to the state, different levels of access to public services, different types of education or even different types of relationships. But they do not wish some of us to be second class citizens, exiled or worse based on our ethnicity. Whatever we think of the individual policies of other mainstream parties, their policies are not racist policies. That is why our system works, because to take part in it all parties have to sign up to some basic moral tenets. The BNP does not do this.
If the Labour government, and other mainstream political parties, share a platform with the BNP they give the message that the BNP has policies you should listen to and think about and then decide whether to give them your support. What they should be doing is saying supporting the BNP should not be an option, because whatever the non-racist policies they have are, whether you like the sound of their ideas about tax or justice or health (and some of their policies on this can come across as attractive) the very fact the party has racist policies at its core is enough that we should deny them the right to discuss anything else.
This alone should stop any decent politicians from any party sharing a platform with the BNP. But more than that; if we did share a platform who would we ask to do this? Whoever we choose there is a problem. Either we choose someone from one of the groups the BNP hate – neither appropriate or fair. Or we choose someone from the one group that the BNP do not hate – someone white and ethnically British, whatever that may be. And we end up with a platform that looks just how the BNP would like the country to look.
Both scenarios disgust me and they should disgust every member of every mainstream party. That is why Tom Flynn, an anti-BNP campaigner and Labour PPC for Southend West, and I have set up a Facebook group ’BNP – No Platform. No Exceptions’. We want supporters of all parties to join and for MPs. Councillors, journalists, commentators, campaigners and anyone who might ever be asked to share a platform with the BNP to publicly give their support to the group. Because if we all refuse to share a platform then we show the BNP to be the marginal party that it is.
Ellie Levenson is a freelance journalist and a member of Tottenham CLP.
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I was also campaigning this weekend with some excellent Labour Party activists, councillors and prospective councillor candidates in Barking and witnessing the great work they were doing to rebuild relations between the public and the Labour Party. Margaret Hodge was out too I am happy to report (especially after the sad loss of her husband). They were listening, they addressed the problems and are next weekend reporting back to all the people in the relevant locations to let them know their problems have been addressed and dealt with.
Meanwhile the BNP just don't turn up to meetings/committees. They have nothing to offer people. We don't need to protest against the BNP. We need to rebuild our party as the democratic force for the people of this country.
the BNP are crap, irrelevant and just in the way. They have their moment, but we will beat them. The people need us. Not a protest against the BNP, they need action from us to help them.
Ignoring the BNP is childish and stupid though and as Labour Group in Barking have discovered just closes down debate with the 98% of those who voted BNP who are not natural long-term BNP supporters. (This statistic was gained from a prospective councillor) who as a "mere" Labour activist questioned over 500 people in Barking and created a questionaire on why people voted for who they did in that election). He is now leading the battle to reclaim this ground and I can assure you ignoring the BNP is not answer in iteslf as the issues the BNP are raising have to be challenged.
Long live the Labour Party and democracy - I really can't wait to hit those doorsteps again on Saturday. I am still very grateful to all contributors who offered their views on dealing with the BNP on my article...it is happening...and they have made a difference.
The native British people want to leave the EU [current estimates run at 70% to 80% vote in favour of leaving] but both Labour & Tories deny us a promised referendum on this issue. This is not democracy. You & your lot are greedy little dictators, which is why you won't give the straight talking BNP a platform.
I can't see any difference between Labour/Tory/LD with their snouts in the trough gorging on tax payer's money. You people are in for a shock at the next election. No one in the north will vote Labour now, they will vote BNP because you are no longer interested in ordinary indigenous working people.
Labour is not an anti-European Party and has members with varying views on it. But the Parliamentary Party have made it clear before election time that they are pro-European and have been elected three times...I would call that democracy.
British National Party Policies.
IMMIGRATION – time to say ENOUGH!
On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years.
To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question.
We will abolish the ‘positive discrimination’ schemes that have made white Britons second-class citizens. We will also clamp down on the flood of ‘asylum seekers’, all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries.
EUROPE – back to British independence!
We are opposed to the Single European Currency, and support the overwhelming majority of the British people in their desire to keep the Pound and our traditional weights and measures. At the same time, we are for the best possible relationship with our European neighbours and believe that the nations of Europe should be free to trade and cooperate whenever it is mutually beneficial, though without being forced into a political and economic straitjacket – political unification. Accordingly, we stand for British withdrawal from the European Union. In place of the EU, we intend to aim towards greater national self-sufficiency, and to work to restore Britain’s family and trading ties with Australia, Canada and New Zealand, and to trade with the rest of the world as it suits us. Following our withdrawal from the EU, the BNP will use the £43 million per day net contribution Britain at present makes to the European Union to fund many far more useful projects at home.
LAW AND ORDER – crack down on crime!
The BNP will crack down on crime and restore public safety and confidence. We will free the police and courts from the politically correct straitjacket that is stopping them from doing their job properly. The liberal fixation with the ‘rights’ of criminals must be replaced by concern for the rights of victims, and the right of innocent people not to become victims. We support the re-introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the restoration of capital punishment for paedophiles, terrorists and murderers as an option for judges in cases where their guilt is proven beyond dispute, as by DNA evidence or being caught red-handed.
ECONOMY – British workers first!
Globalisation, with its export of jobs to the Third World, is bringing ruin and unemployment to British industries and the communities that depend on them. Accordingly, the BNP calls for the selective exclusion of foreign-made goods from British markets and the reduction of foreign imports. We will ensure that our manufactured goods are, wherever possible, produced in British factories, employing British workers. When this is done, unemployment in this country will be brought to an end, and secure, well-paid employment will flourish, at last getting our people back to work and ending the waste and injustice of having more than 4 million people in a hidden army of the unemployed concealed by Labour’s statistical fiddles. We further believe that British industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the British nation and people. To that end we will restore our economy and land to British ownership. We also call for preference in the job market to be given to native Britons. We will take active steps to break up the socially, economically and politically damaging monopolies now being established by the supermarket giants. Finally we will seek to give British workers a stake in the success and prosperity of the enterprises whose profits their labour creates by encouraging worker shareholder and co-operative schemes
EDUCATION – discipline, standards, achievement!
We are against the ‘trendy’ teaching methods that have made Britain one of the most poorly educated nations in Europe. We will end the practice of politically correct indoctrination in all its guises and we will restore discipline in the classroom, give authority back to teachers and put far greater emphasis on training young people in the industrial and technological skills necessary in the modern world. We will also seek to instill in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples of Britain.
AGRICULTURE – quality before quantity!
We see a strong, healthy agriculture sector as vital to the country. Britain’s farming industry will be encouraged to produce a much greater part of the nation’s need in food products. Priority will be switched from quantity to quality, as we move from competing in a global economy to maximum self-sufficiency for Britain. We will ensure a major shift to healthier and more sustainable organic farming. We are pledged to ensure the restoration of Britain’s once great fishing industry with the reimposition of the former exclusion zones around our coast.
HEALTH – first-class healthcare for all!
We are wholly committed to a free, fully funded National Health Service for all British citizens. We will revitalise the Health Service by boosting staff and bed numbers, slashing unnecessary bureaucracy and by addressing the root cause of low recruitment and retention – low pay. We will see to it that no money is given in foreign aid while our own hospitals are short of beds and the staff to run them. More emphasis must be placed on healthy living with greater understanding of sickness prevention through physical exercise, a healthier environment and improved diets.
TRANSPORT – time to invest!
Increased investment is needed in Britain’s public transport system to bring it up to the highest standards in the world. The fiasco of rail privatisation with different companies running services and track leading to higher fares and lower safety also needs to be resolved. Congestion of our towns and cities must be eased by the provision of greater incentives to use rail and bus transport instead of private cars. The first step is to end the crime and squalor that puts so many people off public transport. Motorists must not be made the scapegoats for government failure. Fuel tax should be cut, motorway speed limits raised, and hidden speed cameras should be banned. Far more must be done to encourage the development and use of cleaner fuels.
ENVIRONMENT – a cleaner, greener future!
Our ideal for Britain is that of a clean, beautiful country, free of pollution in all its forms. We will enforce standards to curb those practices, whether by business or the individual, which cause environmental damage. “The polluter pays to clean up the mess” must become a fact of life, not an electioneering slogan. In towns we would work to replace the brutalist modernism of 1960s-style-architecture with a blend of traditional local styles and materials and ensure that developments take place on a more human scale.
FOREIGN AID – time to spend our money on our own people!
We reject the idea that Britain must forever be obliged to subsidise the incompetence and corruption of Third World states by supplying them with financial aid. We will link foreign aid with our voluntary resettlement policy, whereby those nations taking significant numbers of people back to their homelands will need cash to help absorb those returning. The billions of pounds saved every year by this policy will also be reallocated to vital services in Britain.
PENSIONERS – pensioners before asylum seekers!
The conditions in which many of Britain’s old people are forced to live are a national disgrace. We are pledged to ensure that all our old folk are able to live in comfortable homes, and will restore the earnings link with pensions. Elderly people who have paid a lifetime of taxes and reared families should not have to sell their homes to pay for care.
NORTHERN IRELAND – an end to sectarianism!
Britain has shamefully allowed the terrorists in N.I. to come close to winning when the IRA could have been destroyed years ago. Government weakness has led to hundreds of deaths and given those same terrorists a share in government. We would end all attempts to force the people of Northern Ireland to accept foreign interference in their affairs and deal with terrorism – from whatever side – once and for all. No one with links to a terrorist organisation that refuses to lay down its arms should be allowed to enter government. We would abolish state-supported segregation in education. In the long run, we wish to end the conflict in Ireland by welcoming Eire as well as Ulster as equal partners in a federation of the nations of the British Isles.
DEFENCE – no more cuts!
Successive cuts in defence spending have left Britain’s armed forces perilously weak. We will boost Britain’s armed forces to ensure that they are able to deal with any emergency, and defend our homeland and our independence. We will bring our troops back from Germany and withdraw from NATO, since recent political developments make both commitments obsolete. We will close all foreign military bases on British soil, and refuse to risk British lives in meddling ‘peace-keeping’ missions in parts of the world where no British interests are at stake – a position of armed neutrality. We will also restore national service for our young with the option of civil or military service.
FOREIGN AFFAIRS – Britain’s interests first!
Britain’s foreign relations should be determined by the protection of our own national interest and not by our like or dislike of other nations’ internal politics. We would have no quarrel with any nation that does not threaten British interests. We will maintain an independent foreign policy of our own, and not a spineless subservience to the USA, the ‘international community’, or any other country.
DEMOCRACY – letting the people decide!
The British people invented modern Parliamentary democracy. Yet in recent years the British people have been denied their democratic rights. On issue after issue, the views of the majority of British people have been ignored and overridden by a Politically Correct ‘elite’ which thinks it knows best. On immigration, on Capital Punishment, on the surrender of British sovereignty to the EU and in numerous other areas, democracy has been absent as Labour, Tories and Lib-Dems conspire in election after election to offer the British people no real choice on such vital issues. The BNP exists to give the British people, that choice, and thus to restore and defend the basic democratic rights we have all been denied. We favour more democracy, not less, not just at national but at regional and local level.
Power should be devolved to the lowest level possible so that local communities can make decisions which affect them. We will remove legal curbs on freedom of speech imposed by successive Governments over the last 40 years. We will implement a Bill of Rights guaranteeing fundamental freedoms to the British people. We will ensure that ordinary British people have real democratic power over their own lives and that Government, local and national, is truly accountable to the people who elect it.
it to your current narrow comprehension of the term.
Being able to live peacefully in this country, associating freely with others, able to speak your mind without fear of persecution, remains one of the great privileges of every Brit - including you. Politics and economics are far too intertwined with the fate of other countries and other peoples to be reduced to BNP hate and fear.
Your sums do not add up. Reduce immigration to zero, attempt forced repatriation and you will decimate our public service staff, suck our economy dry of inward investment and trade with the rest of the world will seize up within a few months.
Reach for your Thomas Paine - or easier go and see a play about him - Trevor Griffiths' "The New World" at Shakespeare's Globe. No man has the right to oppress another man (or woman) - we are all equal.
Libertarianism without this principle of 'equality before the law' would lead to barbarism and serfdom.
The BNP increase their vote by 200,000 thousand and you're suddenly back in Cable Street - but on the wrong side.
When some of the Unions start putting up candidates and splits Labour core votes and the BNP pick up votes in key seats what then. Labour will become the party of middle class socialists, those on long term unemployment reaping benefits and certain areas of 2nd generation immigrants who don't wish to see the Tories in power as they fear a crack down on those extended family members wishing emigrating to the U.K.
Oh in the next few years what chance a Muslim party starting representing Muslim interest, that's a few more Labour seats lost.
2001 Labour Party General Election Manifesto
Ambitions for Britain
Fulfilling Britain's great potential
The Prime Minister sets out his vision for Britain’s future
Investment and reform
Key measures for public service reform
1 Prosperity for all
How we expand our economy and raise our living standards
2 World-class public services
How investment and reform will improve public services
3 A modern welfare state
How we help people into work and provide security for those who can’t work
4 Strong and safe communities
How we tackle crime and renew our society
5 Britain strong in the world
How we make foreign policy work for Britain and the wider world
The choices for Britain
A lot done, a lot to do, and a lot to lose
25 steps to a better Britain
Our key steps for a second term
The contract delivered
How Labour has fulfilled its first-term promises
Ten goals for 2010
* Long-term economic stability
* Rising living standards for all
* Expanded higher education as we raise standards in secondary schools
* A healthier nation with fast treatment, free at the point of use
* Full employment in every region
* Opportunity for all children, security for all pensioners
* A modern criminal justice system
* Strong and accountable local government
* British ideas leading a reformed and enlarged Europe
* Global poverty and climate change tackled
"They are statements, largely factually inaccurate, simplifying complex areas of political life"
So true.
However, and I hold no brief for the BNP, I believe the greater consideration is not the BNP themselves, but rather the significant number of UK citizens who voted for them. The BNP is now represented locally and in the European Pariament.
By refusing to engage with the BNP. you are suggesting that those voters who supported their election are not worth the effort of engaging with their concerns. This is just the reason why the BNP were elected. The government failed to address the concerns of a million UK citizens, and look what happened. So I would urge you to reconsider who it is that you are not prepared to engage with. (Sorry for the preposition)
You will not become contaminated by Nick Griffin, nor will you be seen to be endorsing his views by engaging with them.
Only arguement will suffice to address ideas that you abhor, in reasoned, deliberate tones.
Debate them in the open.
Expose their lies.
Ridicule their demented ideaology.
The struggle is to convince the electorate that they have more to lose from voting for the BNP than to gain. The BNP promises that without immigrants this country will be great again when in fact without labour migration this country would be on its knees economically and socially. Most of their arguments wouldn't convince a child - so let's not be afraid of them.
What follows is a rant modelled on some of Adolf Hitler's best stuff. I suggest you get the sick bag ready unless you have a strong stomach.
Posted from the BNP newsletter site on Saturday 19th September
Fellow Patriot,
As our enemies gather to plot our downfall, us, and indeed they, would do well to remember that for thousands of years the British people have defended these Isles, our blood and all we love and hold dear.
Millions of our ancestors have died defending the right of our people to exist under our own traditions in our own homeland, and to hand down to future generations the sacred soil of our island home.
Remember our heroes of old
At Waterloo, Trafalgar, Rorkes Drift, the Crimea, Ypres, Passchendaele, the Somme, Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain, D-day and the Falklands, men and women of our blood have triumphed against staggering odds to defend our proud nation.
In 1948, not long after the guns fell silent at the end of the Second World War, our treacherous politicians initiated the greatest act of genocide against the British people in history: The immigration invasion.
Starting with the 'Windrush', which landed at Tilbury in 1948, the pace of the never-ending flood of foreigners into Britain has turned into a nightmare that has caused the transformation of large areas of our homeland into mini versions of Baghdad, Karachi, Islamabad and Bombay.
The mass invasion of Britain, almost complete!
The invasion is being carried out under various guises, immigration, asylum-seeking and so on, but the end result is always the same: the colonisation of our towns and cities by a never-ending conveyor belt of Asian, African, Balkan and, most dangerous of all, Islamic immigrants.
Our war heroes have been betrayed! Our children have been betrayed! Within several decades the native British people will become a minority in their own ancestral homeland. This is an act of deliberate, calculated genocide against our ancient race and nation.
They won't even allow our dead to rest in peace
At this very moment In Manchester one of our ancient Christian Churches, St. John's, is being bulldozed to the ground and the Christians buried there are being dug up to make way for, you guessed it, another Islamic mosque! Islam is now quite literally trampling on the bones of our Christian heritage.
Meanwhile 'Mohammed' is now the most popular baby name in London and the second most popular baby name in the United Kingdom! At the current rates of immigration and the massive immigrant birth rates, the British people face becoming a minority and Britain a third-world country within two generations!
Our land is literally being devoured by the immigrant invasion
The government's own migration adviser has admitted that thousands of immigrants are getting jobs at the expense of British workers. The flood of migrants into Britain is causing a housing shortage which inflates house prices, forcing the government to concrete our green belt with hundreds of thousands of new homes for the incoming colonisers.
New official figures from 'The Department for Children, Schools and Families' have confirmed that white British people have been ethnically cleansed from inner city London. Of the approximately 310,907 children in London schools, 159,340 do not have English as their mother tongue. The figures only refer to recent immigrants whose parents have not been anglicised.
As a result, second or third generation Third World immigrant-origin children have been counted as having English as a home language. When they are combined with more recent immigrants, the 159,340 figure, the situation is one of ethic genocide for the white Londoners. Indeed, ALL IS LOST IN OUR CAPITAL CITY!
Now our enemies are almost strong enough..watch the horror unfold!
Dewsbury, Luton and Harrow, to name a few, have recently seen disturbing instances of Muslim gangs rampaging and attacking police, businesses and local British people. You probably saw the shocking scenes of Muslim violence recently at harrow mosque. But who got the blame? The BNP, despite the fact that we were not there and publically stated so before and after the event!
Even certain establishment cretins are voicing concerns over the diabolical preference given to Islam. Establishment journalist Melanie Phillips sounded a warning about the creeping Islamification of Britain, pointing out that Islamists are given free reign to organise and plot against this country from within.
In a recent issue of her column in one of the daily rags, Melanie Phillips - no friend of the BNP - discussed how ridiculous it was that an Islamist extremist who "has been designated a terrorist by the United Nations" lives freely in Britain despite clear Al-Qaeda connections.
Immigrant murder rates are a threat to us all
New figures released by police forces across Britain have shown that 20 percent of all murders last year were committed by recent immigrants born in other countries. The figures do not include murders committed by the children of immigrants, as in the knife-crime plague in London which is almost exclusively a second or third generation black phenomenon.
If the recent immigrant murder rate is added to the second generation immigrant murder rate, the immigrant murder rate would be far higher, possibly even as much as half of all murders in this country.
Immigration, colonisation, multiculturalism and political correctness are destroying the Britain we all love and cherish. Our children have no future in this country and face a bleak future where they face becoming a dispossessed and despised minority in their own homeland. We cannot allow this to happen!
Time is running out!
For over 60 years the immigration invasion has transformed huge areas of our country into third-world slums and Islamic ghettos. On current birth-rate figures, we will become a minority in our own land within perhaps 1 or 2 generations.
We have lived in these islands for thousands of years, but now we will lose EVERYTHING unless we recover our British backbone and take our country back!
For almost 30 years now the British National Party has triumphed against staggering odds, coming from nothing to having elected representatives on nearly every tier of Government. We have shown beyond a doubt that we have the maturity, tenacity, determination and ability to overcome any obstacle thrown in our path by the rotten anti-British establishment.
We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to save our country - but we need YOUR help to save our children's future!
We are on borrowed time, we must act now or our children and our nation will perish!
Today I am asking you to help the BNP and our historic mission to save the British race and nation. Below are four ways in which you can join/help the crusade to rescue our nation from colonisation, immigration and multiculturalism.
If you care about your country, your heritage, your ancestors, your children, then now is the time to leap into the crucible and join the struggle!
I have such tremendous faith in the indomitable spirit of the British people and have no doubt whatsoever that we will triumph against the forces destroying our country in the end. Today you can help the British Resistance:
Meanwhile, Labour's response to that tirade would be....
" "...
In our society I've always thought that silence is a tacit form of agreement.
If you're going to make a daft comment like that, Peter, you've at least got to cover yourself by making sure you're not doing the very same thing you're complaining about.
This isn't rocket science.
The number of other comments you've made is irrelevant. You were pointing out that his failure to refute Griffin's nonsense in Cath's post implied that he somehow agreed with it. When he made that comment it was a joke. You're just saying "So are you!"...
...and you write for a living?
It's a waste of bandwidth but let's look at the substance of your case.
You clearly think was OK for Mike to infer acquiescence from Cath's silence (because he was joking!), and not for me to do the same from his (but I was joking too!). So you go on to suggest I concur with those racist statements because I haven't fisked them either (another joke! They're rolling in the aisles by now).
The serious point I was making Monkeybot5000, is that I've probably spent about 30 years countering racist and xenophobic propaganda and ideas. For a brief sample for today, see below. Meanwhile, what have you and Mike been doing?
Ah. I forgot your wonderful comedy duo. Monkeybot and Mike Thomas. The Cannon and Ball of Labour List.
To which of course my necessary reply to keep the whole absurd ball rolling: but you've said nothing against that Islamophobic screed! So according to Mike we can only conclude you agree with it too!
Applause. Laughter. Bows. More applause.
Never heard of a circular argument my half pint simian friend?
If you was a boxer and me the ref id save you from getting brain damaged. However it doesn’t quite work
like that in the real world, so you’ll keep getting a beating. word of advice though;
read sincerely and learn from history. take heed of the lesson and live a happy life not one of
hate.
Sorry if I misread your humour, I thought you were being serious. Thing is, you follow it up with something like this...
"I've probably spent about 30 years countering racist and xenophobic propaganda and ideas. For a brief sample for today, see below. Meanwhile, what have you and Mike been doing?"
...which just sounds a bit pompous. Gives me this mental image of Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells typing away.
And "half pint"? That's 284ml - I'm clearly a metric monkey.
You know damn well my sister is an adopted Vietnamese war orphan. You are lucky I am in a good mood today to ignore your trademark odious smears.
Pathetic.
It would be like me pointing out that most of the BNPs economic, environmental and even foreign affairs policies [see above] are 'similar' to those of Labourites, Lib-Dems and Greens.
I'm not accusing anyone of racism or anything by noting this, but the repetition of these mantra on this blog by many people (I won't name names) tells me that these issues have wider traction. When a regular self-styled libertarian blogger here (OK I will name names - Old Holborn) declares that he's going to stand shoulder to shoulder with the English Defence League (who trashed the Bullring recently) then, you've got to concede Max, there is some crossover.
Ignoring these concerns will not make them go away.
However, I'm still not completely convinced about no platform policy. If politicians (especially Labour) are not seen to debate with the BNP they can't expose them for what they really are and will be seen to be putting two fingers up to people who either support them or voted for them in the European elections. Many of these people were probably ex Labour supporters who have become dissolustioned with the party and feel that New Labour has fundamentally let down the working people. Not everyone who votes for the BNP is racist or a facist. If the BNP are not given a chance to attempt to takepart in a democratic debate then this will allow them to pretend they are the party that look after workers interest, a fact which would be quickly refuted if they were given 5 minutes tough questioning on any subject.
In their excessive zeal for what they deem to be 'right', people can sometimes end up by violating one of the most fundamental principles of democracy - the right to free speech. While accepting free speech as a universal value, all too often they try to restrict it when it comes to certain issues, such as the far Right in this case. The result is not to encourage but to stifle debate about these issues. Britain quite rightly prides itself on its tradition of free speech and civilised debate on all subjects. And it is the views of BNP which are the disgrace, not their right to hold their views nor their right to express them within the law. Attempts to stop them speaking through childish student union politics and 'no platform' policies are deeply illiberal and ultimately counter-productive. It risks turning these BNP bigots into martyrs and the real danger is that if we simply just ignore the reasons for the strength of the BNP, in so doing we reinforce the conditions that have already created this situation.
I am confident that my Labour values are much more in tune with the British people and thus I am willing to debate in public with the likes of the BNP to expose them for the intellecutally bankrupt morons they are. So should we all.
Gollywogs being thrown onto braziers; people throwing wet sponges at a man in a Barack Obama mask locked in stocks; BNP officers making speeches describing Jadaism and Islam as “cancers”; BNP supporters giving “Sieg Heil” salutes; BNP members threatening an anti-Fascist protester with hammers and axes; skinheads boating of how they’d driven black families out of their villages...
Democrats? Democrats???
Having had dealings with BNP members in previous incarnations, I have to say that - especially if you're not white - you would not want to be in the same room without some kind of police protection. The core membership really are thugs.
Mike Thomas and James Man of the Right are classic examples of this. They seem to conclude that ALL BNP support comes from former Labour voters (It's Labour's fault says Mike, the BNP are socialist says James). The reality is that Kellner's survey of BNP attitudes shows the main factor is that they are disillusioned with all three political parties. And only a fule would believe they don't peel off a segment of the Tory vote too.
It's vital that all three main parties work together to reduce the BNP vote, and it's not the sole responsibility of Labour.
I am a Tory and the party I support engages with the elected BNP and beats their arguments to the point no-one votes BNP.
You are a Labour party supporter and Labour prefer not to engage with the BNP and as a result the BNP win previous held Labour seats.
They are the facts, it is you that should be railing against your peers for their stupidity, not those that have said No Platform is stupid and the principle cause for BNP votes in previously Labour held constituencies.
If the facts are so hard to swallow, do something about it but taking potshots that those that hold the right principles to beat this vile menace is the wrong target to go for.
Of course, by pointing this out, you are rendering the term 'racist' meaningless
People think they're accused of being racist when they're not.
The BNP or UKIP (its more acceptable face) hardly figure in Scotland, why?
Because there is a strong alternative platform to the 'after you Cyril' politics of Westminster, a party that chimes with the Scots innate belief in a socially aware society of equals, that we are all 'Jock Tamson's bairns', the position that Scottish Labour used to hold until Nu Labour and Millbank emasculated the Labour Party as it clawed its way to power on the backs of its new chums like Bernie Ecclestone.
Millbank's attempts to portray the SNP as 'Scotland's BNP' in Scotland has backfired just as the 'BNP no platform' campaign will in England. The Scots have been treated as a colony by Westminster for too long, being told what is best for them. The result, the SNP's vote share is routinely 6% ahead of Labour in Scotland and that is before factoring in the 25% of Libdem and Labour supporters who have said they will vote SNP in 2010 if a Tory Government looks likely.
My message to Ellie is your position does not work, no matter how abhorrent you find the BNP; failing to engage them with substantive, authentic argument on the issues that people understand and not the ones that policy wonks at Millbank think are 'cool' or 'safe' does.
The Labour Party is so fixated about 'being on message' and 'politically correct' that it is rapidly disappearing up its own political fundament.
Shame that Labour have devalued the term to be almost meaningless after they spend years hurling it at anyone who didn’t want a European super state or who questioned the sheer volume of immigration.
It was only a couple of years ago now that every QT the Labour panelist would fling the term at the Conservative panelist as a matter of course. Well people soon learnt to ignore a Labour politician hurling the term racist.
Now like the little boy who cried ‘wolf’ the big bad BNP wolf is going to eat up your core vote. Serves you right for being so irresponsible with your language for years.
I don't know the 'you' being invoked here, I assume it's Ellie. But let's take your imprecation to be 'responsible' with language seriously for a moment. Let's look at your language, James MOTR.
Racism... meaningless... hurling it... hurling the term raicst... the little boy who cried 'wolf'... BNP wolf going to eat up your core vote
Phew! How did you manage to pack so much emotive meaningless rhetoric into so few words. It's the kind of sloppy political thinking Orwell loathed and eviscerated. By your lights, every EU sceptic has been called a 'racist' (?) and because Labour has made racism meaningless (?) a branch of the Labour movement has broken away to form the BNP (?).
Mind you, I don't know why anyone bothers to take these bilious 'I'm a victim of reverse racism' rants seriously. After all it was you who claimed 2 million voters had switched from Labour to BNP, and when challenged, claimed it was a typo and the 1 million voters had switched from Labour to BNP - even thought the BNP has never won a million votes.
I personally think No Platform isn't working. On other hand, I see no reason on earth why anyone should listen to you, whose sole interest seems to be to use the BNP to open up space on the Right where any mention 'racism' is prohibited.
When you've finished lying, James, let me know.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/html/ukregion_999999.stm
0.943m. Oh no, you got me!!!!
I think the best thing that can be done is to debate with them. If we can't win a debate with a racist, then we are sunk. Trying to prevent the electorate hearing unpalatable views is simply wrong. Get the BNP onto a platform and destroy their argument. Walk away from them, and their politics will go unchallenged.
The BNP is a legal political party and so far it has stayed within the law. The way Labour has treated the BNP is frankly political cowardice of the worse sort. Labour it seems believes that the public is so stupid it cannot make its own mind up on anything.
Thankfully it is only a matter of time before the country has a decent government again. Once that happens the BNP will wither away, as its current rise can only be blamed on the repressive and spendthrift labour party. Sadly the BNP and the Labour party have much common ground both distrust democracy and hate freedom of speech. Maybe that is the real reason you fear the BNP so much, as it is really the Labour parties evil twin.
I would strongly suggest reading the second chapter of J.S. Mill's On Liberty for more.
so knuckle down and debate them off the political agenda. or, like gordon brown, do you lack the cojones for a fight? it is so typical of labour to walk away from its responsibilities.
I would imagine that most of them don't say that they want "darkies out", although there will always be a few with that view. I think that they'll say, we're being ignored and not listened to. We're fed up with mass unfettered immigration that is changing the face of the country, wage depression and pandering to Muslims.
Now you can say, but none of the above are a problem, but they are to those voters. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a social and economic problem and it is affecting core Labour voters.
Now, here's a snippet from last week's Telegraph,
"Mohammed is now the most common name for baby boys born in London and three other English regions, official Government figures have shown."
"The Islamic name overtook traditional choices like Jack, Thomas and Daniel to become the number one name in the West Midlands, Yorkshire and the Humber, and the North West, as well as in the capital, in 2008."
I haven't checked but I'm sure (bar London) those regions probably match the highest BNP vote. The Christian hotel couple who have been arrested and charged farce is probably going to do the BNP no end of favours in the North West.
No platform = no debate.
Given that any debate on immigration usually ends with cries of "racism" and "BNP" from left wing leaning people, does anyone seriously think that refusing a debate does anything to stop the BNP?
Obviously yes.
And very successfully too. Just under 1 million votes and 2 MEPs.
In politics, like science, you should test your theories against hard evidence. The evidence says shouting names and refusing to discuss issues is not working.
As for the argument that attending the same platform as people you don't like gives them a platform, may I remind you they have Legal rights to be afforded free air time once they reach a certain size.. And the BNP is a legal organisation.
Of course, if you don't believe in debate, you are as bad as the BNP - intolerant of differing opinions. I believe it's called censorship.
The arrogance of that comment is simply astounding. Do you honestly think that your party is held in such high esteem by the electorate that merely being seen next to you gives the BNP some kind of vicarious credibility?
You need to face up to the fact that the BNP are here, they're getting votes and sanctimonious nonsense like this is not going to make them go away. Every time you decide to sulk in the corner, you just give more weight to their claims of persecution. Nick Griffin would love to be able to grab the high ground by saying they were willing to debate their policies in public but the big parties weren't.
"the very fact the party has racist policies at its core is enough that we should deny them the right to discuss anything else."
You do not have the power to take that right away from anyone and you never should. The last thing political debate in this country needs is for argumentum ad hominem to be elevated to the level of official policy - it already seems to be an unofficial one.
May I offer an alternative.
Labour do not seek to engage with the BNP in political discourse because that would involve debate, argument and actually having policies that people would consider against the other offerings.
Where the Tories and Lib Dems have engaged in political discourse; people have not voted for the BNP. Labour's implicit assumption is that voters are stupid; that is insulting.
The BNP are a vile bunch and it should be in the crucible of political scrutiny that they are exposed for what they are. It is the responsibility of other parties to take these people on and win the argument. No Platform is a form of appeasement.
No Platform is not a political point, it is political cowardice especially in the areas where the BNP have gained a foothold were previously Labour voting.
No Platform provides the breathing space for the BNP to exist, the fact that you can't see that makes you as big a danger to our civic society as the BNP themselves.
No Platform provides the breathing space for the BNP to exist, the fact that you can't see that makes you as big a danger to our civic society as the BNP themselves.
So Ellie Levenson is a threat to civil society as the BNP? Who would have guessed.
I can only assume this is a miscued rhetorical flourish. But can't you see how counterproductive such hyperbole is? Can't you see that this constant taunting of Labour supporters that 'they're as bad as the BNP' just makes people suspicious you're using the BNP yourself as a wedge issue to open up space on the right?
What is politics?
It is the open discourse of a point of view based on principled systems of beliefs amongst peers - all with the same vote. Our form of democracy enshrines concepts like freedom of speech and open, fair and free elections, the democratic processes and local and national government rely on an elected government and an effective opposition.
If Labour doesn't want to engage with this people; what is the point of Labour being in politics? In the areas where the BNP are now elected, Labour is the opposition in those council wards or MEP seats.
Good governance is as much as function of effective and robust opposition as it is elected leadership.
Like it or not, the BNP have been elected by voters in free and fair elections. Like it or not, to remove the BNP then effective opposition and debate will be required to win over those voters.
It is incredibly insulting to not only abandon voters to the vagaries of BNP 'policy' in the first place that they actually win almost 1m votes in recent elections; it is utterly reckless and shows total moral bankruptcy then to continue that policy.
'No Platform' will not remove the BNP from office. Instead, the BNP are unopposed by Labour's 'principled' stand, Labour is actively weakening political discourse with it. You are actually gifting these people tens of thousands of votes by failing to argue and win the argument.
Do you think voters understand that principled stand? No, they already felt sufficiently abandoned by Labour to vote BNP in the first place.
It only shows that Labour cannot argue and this intellectual onanism is a pretence for total and utter capitulation and political cowardice.
What a complete joke.
Consider Niemoller's famous poem...
"First they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."
I'll say it again - No Platform provides the breathing space for the BNP to exist, the fact that you can't see that makes you as big a danger to our civic society as the BNP themselves.
I don't think I've ever seen Martin Niemöller used in such a debased fashion. The fact you can quote him after a phrase like 'intellectual onanism' is quite a disturbing example of cognitive dissonance. Niemöller was imprisoned and nearly executed by the Nazis remember, a movement Griffin has tried to exonerate. He also talks about the targetting of communists, socialists, trade unionists and then Jews - and I've never seen you provide the first three with any ounce of protection. In fact, you just repeat the slur you've done elsewhere "It's all Labour's fault. They're as bad as the BNP..."
Niemöller must be spinning at 100 rpm to hear his words used in this context. Meanwhile, memo to self. Never try to engage M Thomas in rational cross party talk.
As the Polish say. Don't touch a t*rd. It just smells worse.
Perhaps if Labour were not so eager to brand people as racist as I see Mr. MacIntyre was then perhaps some of us might refrain from the invective of Labour's supporters?
Did you speak up then when your 'Labour minded' peers suggested and implemented 'No Platform'? No, you just criticise those that would never entertain such a cowardly policy in the first place.
See as we are speaking of effluent, be careful you aren't standing too close to the spinning fan when it hits Peter because from my vantage point you are all going to get splattered.
So the my reply is, when the fascists were coming...
Where were you?
Accusing Labour as being as bad. Phut! Argument over.
And I was in the marches in the West Midlands marching with my parents looking out from staying away from the NF skinheads and various anti-fascists baying for each other's blood.
Yeah, there were many people that wanted peaceful protests instead there were morons at them looking for trouble or toantagonise people into starting trouble by doing stupid things like throwing eggs for instance.
Yeah, you know who I'm talking about.
I guess us non-politically aligned people who wanted to protest peacefully were the acceptable collateral damage to your pathetic gestures huh?
Power to the people Wolfie...
So I suppose it was worth pushing you to this point of self implosion. The Citizen Smith quote being the last whimper.
You admitted to engaging in violence at anti-NF marches which you then downgraded to throwing eggs.
Now you say it never happened.
And you an admirer of Orwell. On which side? Your love of Big Brother?
Good to see Ellie has set up the facebook group - will an MP now take on the task of organising the campaign in the Commons re: Question Time??
Does that mean a fully legal party should be blocked because we dont agree with them ? There was a brilliant post on here a week ago ( i think ) saying we should debate with them , lets face up to the bnp and show them to be the repulsive party they are .
ricki
‘We cannot bury our heads in the sand and pretend that the BNP doesn't exist. Nor can we deafen our ears to the increasing noise of the bigoted right or the legitimate concerns of working people. It must be our responsibility as progressives to heed the warnings before us, to debate openly and freely and - most importantly - to have the conviction of our purpose to win the battle of ideas against the vicious BNP.’
Round my way ( east london ) the bnp are getting stronger , I think having them on QT would help expose the hatered they have for this great country , as i said below i dont think any of the main parties want the bnp to go unchallenged .
ricki
.......... that dodgy dossier was a vile piece of work. People are still dying.
As this policy has worked in stoping the bnp get a london assembly member and eu mp , I say keep going .
seriously though there wast a peice on here that was really good last week i forget who wrote but they argued the other way , I think the only way to highlight the racist is to expose there crackpot ideas , We should not fear the bnp and should be bold in debating with them , After all they are a legitmate party if no-one challenges them then they will get a free pass and i think no party wants that.
ricki