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Stop moaning Peter – civil partnerships are a triumph for gay rights in Britain, not ‘sexual apartheid’

Men Holding HandsBy Mark Day

What’s in a name? Quite a lot according to the gay rights activist Peter Tatchell, who in an article for LabourList on Sunday claimed that civil partnerships did not represent full equality for gay people because ‘same-sex marriage is still illegal’.

It was an assertion he repeated at London’s gay pride over the weekend, accosting the prime minister’s wife Sarah Brown on the march to remind her that ‘although she and Gordon were able to get married, gays cannot.’
 
Despite the fact that civil partnerships introduced by Labour in 2004 carry a directly comparable set of rights and responsibilities as civil marriage, the fact that they are considered ‘partnerships’ and not ‘marriages’ is still seen as a cause for concern by some in the gay community, as Mrs Brown can now attest.
 
For Tatchell they represent a form of ‘sexual apartheid’ that leaves the ‘homophobic’ nature of traditional marriage unchallenged (while civil partnerships, by not allowing straight couples to participate, are ‘heterophobic’). Not everyone in the gay community agrees, seeing his and others’ objections as mainly a quibble over semantics. After all, if civil partnerships are essentially the same in law as civil marriage what does it matter if they are spelt differently in the statute book?
 
While the arguments for and against civil partnerships have been rehearsed many times elsewhere, one question that is rarely addressed is whether a campaign for ‘gay marriage’ would have had the same success in achieving equal rights for same sex couples under the law as the drive for civil partnerships undoubtably succeeded in doing. The answer I believe is almost certainly no.
 
Whether we like it or not, marriage is one of those words that, unlike ‘partnership’, carries with it an awful lot of cultural baggage. For many religious people it is a sacred rite which, in most faiths, can only be entered into by a man and a woman. For non-believers it is still a term that carries with it a heavy burden of expectations whose benefit not everyone is necessarily agreed on. Many feminists see marriage as an institution still tainted with the lingering suspicion of male oppression, and wonder why gay campaigners want to have anything to do with it.
 
No such hang-ups exist with the idea of partnership. Indeed many gay people actively prefer the term as being free from all the religious and cultural associations that go hand in hand with traditional matrimony.
 
In the debate on the civil partnership bill in 2004 its use had the added advantage of killing the socially conservative and religious objections to the legislation stone dead. Since ‘marriage’ was not the issue at stake, the biblical armoury traditionally wielded by the Conservative opposition in such matters was rendered politically redundant. This allowed the debate to take place on the substantial issues of the bill instead of the pseudo-theological slanging match it might have been. Indeed the debate was remarkable for the quality of the discussion and the degree of consensus it managed to achieve between the parties in both Houses of Parliament.
 
By contrast a bill introducing gay marriage would have inevitably divided political opinion in both Houses. The unelected bishops in the House of Lords would have had a field day quoting Genesis and Leviticus to paint the idea of ‘marriage’ between gay people as a religious and cultural misnomer. The Tories also would have been unlikely to back the legislation for fear of offending their socially conservative supporters. Without the support of the Conservative front bench, the bill would have been unlikely to pass, and same-sex couples would not enjoy the equal protection under the law that they currently do today.
 
So Peter Tatchell may choose to see civil partnerships as a form of 'sexual apartheid' if he likes. But given the joy and security they have given to thousands of gay couples since their introduction, the words of Shakespeare's own star-crossed lovers may be more appropriate: 'a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'.

Posted on Jul 08, 2009 at 10:45am

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I think I missed this post because you address it erroneously to someone called Peter

Mind your, your reply missed the point in many other respects. Birth, death and marriage (as well as other rites of passage) were completely dominated by religion for many centuries. But your archaic (and legally incorrect) version of marriage as an 'oath before God' sounds completely like the blusterings of an illiberal. No longer will I believe any pontifications about liberty and the rule of law from you. No longer do you protestations about the Taleban or any other intolerant group stand up to any kind of intellectual consistency or honesty. By your lights, one could completely justify the dominance of sharia law.

Not only are you illiberal, and returning to the kind of philosophy Voltaire, Hume and Mill discredited, you're also clearly ignorant of the facts.

You can't have equality with the ceremony of marriage because you need one man and one woman. Simple.

No John. Many branches of the Abrahamic religion - Christian, Muslim and Jewish - either allow marriage between one man and several women, or have done until very recently. It's simple.

Demolishing arguments like this make shooting fish in a barrel look difficult. Please please keep replying and engaging. The more you write the more you reveal.


anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 4 days ago
Hey John Thomas. Don't worry. I'll get to you soon.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 4 days ago
Yes, fully agree.

I think that this would be the mainstream view amongst gay and lesbian people.

Sometimes purists can't see the wood for the trees. What matters is the legal rights and responsibilities bestowed. Colloquially, its referred to as marriage in any case, and I think in time the names may well be a common one

But as someone who had a CP in the first few monuhs it is something which I am delighted about

Oh, and get rid of both Guy, and whatever Tory Troll or Old Holborn are calling themselves these days
Mike Homfray @ 30 weeks and 4 days ago
If that was a busy day you wanna try working for once.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 4 days ago
In ten years time CPs might be so widespread and accepted that any further call for gay marriage would be seen as unecessary and largely vindictive against heterosexuals.

Oh and no history and justice aren't on your side.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 4 days ago
A couple of basic points:

1 I've always said I support CPs, I am against gay marriage.

2 It's imposssible to deny rights a daughter when the rights exist i.e when she's adult she'll do what she wants.

That being said, my eldest who is interested in politics (she who hates the Labour party and all it stands for) knows exactly what my views on gay marriage are and knows whilst I would wish her the best I couldn't give my blessing to a gay marriage.

It won't be a problem though given the boyfriends and reaction of "no and ewwwww" when she asked if she was taught gay sex-ed at school.

But again I note the "To deny these rights to your own family would be cruel and would show you as an awful parent" line totally refused to admit that those of us on the anti gay marriage side of the argument base our opposition on personal morals.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 4 days ago
What I find hilarious is when an anti gay marriage supporter finds themselves in direct contact with a gay person or couple. As long as it is just "gays" its OK, but when they have to defend their principles against a gay person or couple in person they just look ridiculous - high principles shattered by humanist common sense.

If Guy's son or daughter were gay would he forbid them from entering in a civil partnership? That would be plane cruel and ridiculous nonesense. Just look at Dick Cheney having to defend his administrations refusal to enstate gay rights when his own daughter is gay.

Its absolutely absurd to deny something to everyone as long as you don't know them or have anything to do with them. To deny these rights to your own family would be cruel and would show you as an awful parent.

So Guy, would you deny these rights to your own son or daughter?
Thomas Snoxell @ 30 weeks and 4 days ago
Sorry Bob. I was making a point about minority status not justifying oppression. Gays were also targeted by the Nazis though, and ended up in concentration camps because of their sexuality
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Who's suppressing anyone?

Disagreeing and disliking someone else's point of view is not censorship. That is the principle of free speech. Get used to it.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You're eyesight must be failing you with this late night blogging.

I said I tacitly supported Gay marriage, now I actively passionately support it.

It may take ten years. It may take more. But history and justice is on my side on this.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Well I always knew you favoured suppressing free speech and open debate with insults, slander and half-truths.

You know what they say about birds of a feather.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
FYI, I'd sooner wipe my backside with that publication than read even the first page.

As you have already explained, you do not believe in equality yourself. You have repeatedly said that gay rights are automatically more important than religious rights - despite both being equally protected under international law. When questioned about this viewpoint all you have done is revert to insult.

Others on here arguing in favour of same-sex marriage have made their points very articulately and I've enjoyed reading and debating their posts. Your reactionary comments however betray a prejudice against and hatred for religion and religious people that is quite saddening.

It's a shame because on almost every other political issue I bet our views are very similar.
Morys Ireland @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Peter,

Marriage as a religious ceremony dates back over 3,000 years in Judaism and 3,500 in Hinduism. Both are explicit that marriage is a religious ceremony. If you want to argue on the laws in the Bible take it up with the Clergy. Also, I see the Renaissance humanists saw no issue with marriage either and taking it to the other extremes, the athiest Communists also still permitted marriage as a religious ceremony and neither did they seek to repeal the religious laws of marriage.

You can call a civil partnership what you like and if people are calling it a marriage; why the beef about it? Seems to be a self-defeating argument.

You can't have equality with the ceremony of marriage because you need one man and one woman. Simple.

The fact you don't get it shows that one, you have no appreciation of what marriage really is and two, you have no idea what it means to people that do get married. You bitch, whine and carry on that it is unfair and unequal but actually how about respecting the feelings of those that value marriage for what it is and what it means?

Lastly, read back your last sentence, a marriage is not a private affair, if had one iota of knowledge about marriage it is a very public declaration of lifetime commitment and an oath in front of God. You sign a register that is freely open to all to view. That's about as public as you can get.

People that marry on the whole live longer, have fewer health issues and raise children that grow up to be happier, healthier and more successful. As a Conservative, I cannot see how that is a bad thing. Only the warped thinking to the self-proclaimed intelligentsia left can see it as a problem.

Peter, you must try harder.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
An excellent article. Every now and again Labour List throws up some gems and this is one of them. Calm, well reasoned and sensible.

Would that the Left return to the empirical tradition of looking thoughtfully at the facts rather than basing legislation from the standpoint of high-flown ideals to be imposed from the down!

I am no fan of New Labour - far from it - but I think they got the Civil Partnerships issue exactly right. Well done.
Andrew Cadman @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You clearly have no idea at all on the origins of marriage nor of the origins of organised religion either.

Look at Egyptian religious texts, a early example of polytheistic religion, marriage as a sacred ceremony. It is very well documented.

Look at the Old Testament, its composition is thought to have begun around 1000BC way before the creation of any organised Christian monotheistic religion.

In Genesis, Leviticus, Proverbs and the Song of Solomon, marriage is detailed from the ideal partner (and not so ideal), a code of good behaviour and also what you can get up to in the bedroom. Before the birth of Christainity and its foundations in Judaism, or the Hindu religion, particularly the Veda texts that proscribe its marriage ceremony are thought to be at least 3,500 years old. The most telling quotation in the Rig Veda which details the Hindu marriage ceremony is bhaaryaa daivakrita sakha meaning "Man's God given friend is his wife."

Go further back into European mythology, marriage ceremonies between man and woman existed again as a religious ceremony.

Marriage as a religious ceremony is exactly what marriage is, it cannot simply be separated in the eyes of many, many people as a religious ceremony; it is an oath in front of God.

Keep going because you are making a mockery of the concept of argument with the points you have raised so far.

Do try harder.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Apologies I of course meant Nick Weeks. Sorry Nick!
Mark Day @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
By the way If I want to be seperate from you what moral right do you have to force me to have to be joined legally with the gay community?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I was in an intersting position recently with a report who is openly gay. He is very talented biologist but I have promoted others over him simply because they were the more talented and met the spec. He continues to disbelieve that decisions have been made on talent alone.
There is only so many times I can reassure him and whilst he can meet with HR at the end of the day if a candidate does not come top of a panel then they will not be recruited/promoted to the role.

Simple.
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Wroet an answer that wasn't posted, funny as it was very moderate.

The gist of it was yes, that would likely be acceptable so long as it remained a distinct ceremony and legal institution.

The problem for a "gay marriage" in religious buildings would be the churches not accepting them, much as is the case now.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I already did suggest a hypthetical setting up of a new institution for heterosexuals i.e. "wedlock" or "matrimony". Clearly these were little thoguht out examples, but the premise was still a seperate institution in name and ceremony for heterosexual couples.

If I remember rightly you oppossed it?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You really step over the mark on numerous occasions making assumptions.

Where exactly did Guy M say that he has broken the law?

You accuse him of being a criminal?

You accuse him of being repulsive?

Go on try to prosecute (Guy M this should be fun.....).

Or do you just victimise him because he is a conservative?

Look around and you'll see mroe extremist views on this site - I am not one to condone the Gay Taliban.
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I said I used the term "gay taliban" to get a reaction.

I used it to generate opposition so I could come back with the similarities between 2 fundamentalist groups who accept no disagreement with the "truths" they hold.

That you extend the comment of "getting a reaction" to all posts shows both how simple you are and also how you still try to refute the fact that there are legitimate views opposite to the ones you hold.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Professionaly it's difficult to take stats seriously I can link the 4.5% for you?

The point is that they are a very small minority if you use the 4.5% or the 2.8%
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I don't think you have the foggiest who may or may not get elected at any given time, but you do get the chance ot rant a little so good for you.

As for the "repulsive criminal" line, hahahahahahhahahahaha

I am sitting here now awaiting the arrive of the court summons from the "prosecution team". Should I wait in tomorrow or will it be next week?

By the way I think you are mistaking Employment Law with Criminal Law, best get a legal qualification, I found it helped my no end.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I appreciate that Nick and I'm not recommending that it is what should happen, I mean I doubt anyone is reading what I've written above and thinking 'Oh, that Bill bloke has just solved the problem'.

I'm just interested to know Guy's view on it.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"What I mean is something along the lines of 'gay marriage' as opposed to just marriage on its own?
Nice try - but I'd be totally opposed to it. Any qualifier to "marriage" is simply another way of saying "separate but equal" - ie apartheid. If Guy wants to set himself apart, let him pick a phrase denoting that - but please, not "Christian" marriage, as there are plenty of gay Christians who would object!
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Actually the percentage is more like 2.8% or approximately 1.5 million people. I have a link if you would like to confirm it for yourself?
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You wouldn't have stood a chance of getting elected given your extremist views.

Good to see you're still admitting what a repulsive criminal you are.

No need for the thought police, a prosecution team will do just fine.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I have no problem at all with a definition of "gay marriage" so long as it was a distinct and seperate legal and social entity much as a CP is from marraige at the moment.

I suspect your bigger problem would be with regard to conducting it in a place of worship. I very much doubt any Catholic church would agree and any Anglican church agreeing would likely hasten a schism that seems ever more likely.

I have to say though, I have very little faith that anyone from the gay activist lobby who has been on LL would support this compromise. Also I and many others would be likely to adopt the cynical viewpoint that the gay lobby would see it as just another step towards their goals, so we'd all be fighting the same argument within a few years.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I am more against quotas in my every day life. So I would not employ a disabled person in order to satisfy a quota. I would not turn down a superior male candidate over a pregnant female candidate for fear of being targetted by the sexism police.
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Yes it's 4.5%
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
So no response to the request to link "Firing or sacking" comments? Another little lie on your behalf then.

Yes refusing to hire someone because of their sexual orientation is illegal but proving it is next to impossible if the person doing te hiring is doing his job properly in the first place.

Please link cases of succesful action taken about an anti-gay hiring case in the uk?

As for the logic of your:

"Obviously, no candidate would be daft enough to declare themselves as gay in an interview process, so that would mean you'd have to sack them once employed. This of course, is also illegal." lmao

Deary me you do like to take leap don't you. I find gay people stand out a lot of the time and if I run into one of those at interview you'll know what I'll do now don't you?

If a gay person gets hired I'll do nothing. I could quite easily pass them over for promotion etc. and there'll be nothing that they or you could do about it.

As for my political status. I've made it clear I've withdrawn from any notion of wanting to stand for anything politically. I couldn't represent anyone like you and I can't commit to upholding every law, so therefore I can't justify standing in the current system.

I also have to admit I make far more money for fewer hours the the private sector than I would in politics. I get to seemy family far more, have more job security and no press intrusion.

I think I was mad to contemplate politics as a career and hence am happy to say I have 100% given up any thought of ever being involved or standing.

As for the "obviously your name is known", how delightfully NuLabour and anti liberty that sounds. Time to send hte thought police around soon as well lol.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
We've come further towards a common view in less than 4 comments than in the past 4 articles that we've debated the issue.

Okay, so logically you can see the why the gay community would be upset by your argument, and I presume you can appreciate how easy it is for someone to misunderstand the written word, especially on the internet?

Whether or not I agree with your position, I respect that you want to defend the historic institution of marriage and if there is no moral objection to gay civil partnerships taking place in a church, then logically it would follow that your standpoint is that the word marriage and what it has meant for generations?

Would you have any personal objection then, and again this is only a suggestion as to find some sort of common ground, to there being a different definition of marriage if it had a prefix in addition to the existing marriage as it stands? What I mean is something along the lines of 'gay marriage' as opposed to just marriage on its own?

The adjunction would mean that it was clearly defined from the existing marriage as we know it but it would have all the same legal rights currently given by the civil partnership. The main difference between gay marriage and civil partnership being that the former could be conducted in a place of worship providing there is agreement by the religious institution involved.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
The only reason why I can conclude that you quoted from the Bible is that you somehow think that marriage is a purely Christian phenomena, and any other interpretation of it should be dismissed instantly.

I have to tell you that marriage existed long before Christianity did, and in fact most marriages in the UK today are non-Christian (either secular or a different faith).

The laws and definition on marriage are set by Parliament, not by the Church. So your quotes from the Bible are completely irrelevant.

If you didn't quote the Bible for this reason, then I'm afraid you're making little sense.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
No answer to the philosophical questions posed? So with no answer you can categorically rule out the possiblity of a "god"? You really wouldn't do well on an undergraduate science course, you'd be ripped to shreds intellectually.

But then I get the feeling you aren't that bright or well educated, but never mind.

By the way please link (I've asked you to link so many things now with no success) where I present religious beliefs as "fact"?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I have a science degree and worked for some time on scientific projects after graduation i.e. the Mary Rose Trust. I have subsequently dipped into and out of scientific bodies over the last 15 years. I'm also married to a scientist who was in pharma research for a long time.

Again I draw you to the fact that science is based upon critical rationalism and therefore does not seek "proof" as you put it.

So I'll ask as I have asked you before to disprove God and religion?

Seeing as you have no idea how existance began (if it did), what is beyond the edge of the universe and how matter came into being, I look forward to your great enlightenment on the issue of a definitive answer as to the existance of a "god"?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Your viewpoint is clearly not legitimate.

As you've proved over the last week, your views are based on an irrational hatred of anything different. You've also proven that you're not a particular pleasant fellow given you're willing to break the law just to hurt gays by preventing them getting a job. It's desperately pathetic.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Lmao, you never were anythnig other than a supporter of gay marriage and you know it.

If you think that having you come out and support gay marriage means we on the anti gay marriage side think we have lost a supporter you are deluded as usual.

As for the call to "move on" it isn't going to happen in the next 10 years minimum and everyone already is equal in the eyes of the law.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"the two people intended to become 'married' are a man and a woman"

Intended by whom?
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Glad to hear that ATT.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I've never doubted the pro gay marriage lobby has a legitimate viewpoint, my view is simply that it is a wrong viewpoint.

I shall be off to bed very soon, busy work day tomorrow sadly.

Of course my non reply to any of the posts won't be taken that I haven't an answer or admit defeat will it :)
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Refusing to hire someone because of their sexual orientation is illegal.

Obviously, no candidate would be daft enough to declare themselves as gay in an interview process, so that would mean you'd have to sack them once employed. This of course, is also illegal.

So on either front, you've openly admitted to discriminating in a way that breaks the law.

If people on here know you as a prospective Parliamentary candidate for the Tories, then obviously your name is known. So I wouldn't feel so confident if I were you.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Please learn your own lesson. And go to bed.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
It takes stubborn people a very long while to admit others have legitimate viewpoints.

Please link proof as to the populist nature of "gay marriage"? I'm sure if you let the Labour party know what a vote winner it is they'll be rushing legislation through.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I don't think you really understand what diversity is. It certainly isn't what you believe in, that's for sure. You believe in a kind of mono-culture, or a dominant culture where one particular way of life is held up as superior to others.

When you talk about heterosexuals having marriage "exclusively for themselves", you sound like a spoilt child who won't share his toys. We're talking about a serious legal issue which directly affects peoples lives.

Everyone should be held equal under the law, and no privilege should be granted exclusively to one group, at the expense of another.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You haven't convinced a single person who was anti gay marriage to be in favour of gay marriage in all the threads over the last few days and you won't convince a single one of us.

By all means carry on trying, all you are doing is wasting your energy fighting a debate you wont win.

For those of us on the other side though, we've never been under the illusion we will convince pro gay marriage supporters, it's sufficient to continue to make the case, not allow you to think you have a free run or the moral high ground.

You state the same mistruth "Miliband announce positive feelings for the issue", no he didn't he said:

"there is a debate to be had over equalising the rights of ‘married’ heterosexual and homosexual couples". I agree with him, there is a debate to be had. He doesn't say what he believes in or whether he agrees with you, so stop pretending otherwise.

You will not see "gay marriage" in the next ten years, you know it and there's nothing you can do about it.

As an aside I have said I don't want my kids exposed to gay sex-ed and I don't as it isn't appropriate for school to be teaching it. Thankfully my kid's school agress and has studioudly avoided the subject comepletely. Seems they agree with me?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Well you've already lost this argument, so clearly your 'advice' on me not to engage with you on this matter was rather pointless.

Criticising those who choose to believe in something for which there is no evidence, and then present such beliefs as fact, is perfectly rational and certainly not bigoted.

You've still yet to explain why criticising a religious belief is bigoted, yet criticising a political belief isn't?

Hmm, think you need to get back to science class and brush up on your knowledge of a reasoned argument.

Thought you weren't going to post any more tonight anyway? Seems you quite enjoy engaging with homosexual discussion after all!
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
@Northern Monkey
Legally here are some differences between civil partnerships and civil marriage although not on the substantial issues of inheritance and next of kin rights etc which are identical. Rather than a mark of civil partnership being less equal than marriage however these differences may in fact be seen as sensible and necessary. For instance, whereas in civil marriages the names of the registering partners must be openly declared on the public register, for civil partners their names are allowed to remain anonymous. This is understandable given the unfortunate everyday reality of homophobia faced by many gay people and the regrettable need for them to conceal their sexuality in some contexts such as the workplace. And while it is true that in civil partnerships it is marginally easier to divorce than in civil marriage, many people would consider this is a significant advantage over traditional marriage rather than a disadvantage.

I know of no evidence that shows that civil partnerships are any less recognised than same sex marriages in countries that choose to recognise legal same sex partnership arrangements. However, the idea that countries would be any more likely to recognise them simply because they were legally constituted as marriages rather than partnerships seems to me a pretty flimsy argument. Would Saudi Arabia be any more likely to recognise the legal rights of a same sex couple because they happen to have been ‘married’ in their native country rather than civil partners?

@Nick West
As you suggest the big difference between civil partnerships and marriage is the role religion is able to play with respect to its role in the ceremony and endorsement. While neither civil marriages nor partnerships can take place in a religious context, opposite sex couples do have the option of a religious ceremony and marriage if they so choose. For instance, the Church of England and the Church in Wales are allowed to register a marriage at the same time as performing the religious ceremony. Arrangements for other faiths differ, with a registrar either having to attend the religious ceremony or partners needing to have separate religious and civic ceremonies.

By contrast, a civil partnership cannot be registered on religious premises and unlike non-religious venues religious organisations can also refuse to hold civil partnerships on their premises.

However, to suggest that this is the fault of the legislation in isolation ignores the long history of antagonism between traditional organised religion and the gay rights movement. For instance currently religious organisations are also exempt from the provisions of the EU employment directive on sexual orientation, allowing them to discriminate against candidates for bishop on grounds of their sexual orientation. The provisions of the civil partnership act simply reflect this more general history of antagonism and the perennial problem organised religion seems to have with homosexuality overall.

Ultimately, if gay people want their partnerships to be recognised on a religious as well as civil basis, then it is in the churches, synagogues and mosques – rather than the House of Commons or Lords – where this battle will need to be fought.
Mark Day @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Absolutely. Guy M (and to a certain extent M Thomas) have turned me from someone who tacitly supported Gay Marriage to someone who feels quite passionately about the bigotry and injustice that underlies its prohibition

Obviously, Labour went to CP because they were afraid the country wasn't ready to accept sexual equality.

Times have changed. Let's move on and make everyone equal in the eyes of the law
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You need to understand the difference between "hiring" and "firing".

I said "hiring" and so long as I document my decision and provide rational argument there is nothing you or anyone else can do.

Firing or sacking is a subject entirely of your own making and I have at no point mentioned firing or sacking anyone in all the posts on all the threads over all the days. Please link otherwise if you can.

Please link where I have said I "refuse the acknowledge the law where gay rights are concerned in your duties as an employer" besides in the hiring phase?

All your bluster about "Once I've got your full name, here's hoping you're the next" is making me laugh.

You haven't got a leg to stand on and you know it lol.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Lol! Good points Nick.

Sorry to here about your father, clearly it takes a very long while for stubborn people to admit they're wrong. The individuals on here are proof of that!

But I agree with you in that most heterosexual people I know have no problem with same-sex marriage at all and don't see it as a threat.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Some of us don't want to sit only at the back of the bus, while you sit only at the front of the bus. Ask Rosa Parks about it.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You haven't held anyone to a standstill you pretencious individual. All you've done is endlessly repeat your bigoted posts (which you're now backtracking on) to a nauseating degree and every one of them has been batted away as easily as swatting a fly.

"1 Bigoted - intolerant, biased, obstinate, opinionated, partial, partisan etc. etc. etc."

You forgot ignorant too. Also, for the 'intolerant' part, let's be clear, that means intolerant of someone or something for no rational purpose. There's nothing wrong with being intolerant of stupid or evil ideas.

"I don't feel any fear towards homosexuals and the only "antipathy" I feel is towards those homosexuals who confronted by disagreement of their apparent self evident truths revert to "bigot" etc."

Nope. You've said repeatedly in the past week that you loathe anything to do with homosexuality, so much so that you repeatedly confessed to pathetically trying to stop your children seeing anything to do with homosexuality whatsoever. Those actions are not those of a sane man, nor are they the actions of someone who only feels antipathy towards "towards those homosexuals who confronted by disagreement of their apparent self evident truths revert to "bigot" etc.".

The fact is the pro-equality folks are changing peoples minds and that's why progress has happened so quickly over the past 12 years. We've had Clegg and Miliband announce positive feelings for the issue this weekend, who next?

You on the other hand, haven't been able to convince anyone and I suspect you've put a lot of people off with your extreme, homophobic stance.

I know you don't like the situation but the course of history always points to greater freedom and equal rights under the law. You're on the losing side of the argument and always will be. And there's nothing you can do about it.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"The fundamental flaw in the pro gay posters thinking over the last few days has been in terms of "the anti gay marriage brigade is trying to convince us of their views".

Actually (not that I'm a part of any brigade), my own concern has been to let you help me convince those people who have open minds. Your display of a level of intolerance, personal attacks, inconsistency and irrationality has, I think, gone a long way to persuade some people that they do not wish to be associated with the "defense of marriage" you claim to espouse, for fear of also becoming associating with the homophobia and contempt for equality you have so consistently displayed.

Others have managed to oppose gay marriage in rational tones, and there has been some useful debate, and perhaps a bit more understanding on either side.

You alone have chosen to cast yourself as a foaming-at-the-mouth homophobe: it does you no credit. And it probably reflects badly on me (as a hardened survivor of too many political battles and a couple of physical queerbashings) that I will not allow your particular brand of crap to go unchallenged.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Religion is based upon faith with can not be quantified, it is by definition spiritual. By degrading religious belief to that of the tooth fairy you show both your own bigotry and ignorance.

As for my comment of "You don't want to get into this with me as you will lose the argument badly" it related to your lack of knowledge about scientific enquiry and the nature of open mindedness most scientist have as a matter of course.

On that subject ara you will lose every argument with me, so as suggested don't get into it.

In relation to religion I'd like you to ponder on the issue of existance. Can you tell me how matter came about, what existed before the big bang and how did that come about?

Can something just exist forever with no beginning or end?

Can you explain whether space has an end and what is infinity. The universe has a distinct end but how far does the nothingness beyond the universe extend and does it ever end? If it dose end, how does it end and why is there an ending?

Once you have contemplated those scientific, philosophical and sprititual questions come back to me and tell me how you are 100% sure there is no chance of an afterlife, of a greater power or truth beyond our understanding.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You helped to drag it down there Guy. The conservation gets better whenever you're not around.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
If you check my responses to Guy, you'll see he's admitted that he's only here to 'get a reaction'.

Classic troll. Even anti tory troll is bored of debating him. He's detracting from a genuine discussion, and that's not because he disagrees about Gay marriage. Morys disagrees but is articulate, to the point, passionate but not insulting, and believes in basic values of equity and reason.

Guy M is only here to 'get a reaction' as he admits.

Form your own opinion.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Again you mistake anti gay marriage supporters with anti gay formalising of partnership views.

Most of us support CPS, what we are defending is the nature of an institution that has been and is a heterosexual institution of significance.

You fundamentally disagree that heterosexuals should have anything exclusively for themselves when I have no issue with homosexuals having an equivlaent exclusively for themselves.

You are therefore less diverse than I am.

I am sure homosexuals would want to have a first class arrangement, so make CPs a first class arrangement. I am at a loss as to gay thinking that everything heterosexual "has to be first class and we therefore want it as well"

Are all homosexuals that insecure?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"Many heterosexuals would probably welcome same-sex marriage I might add"

Pretty much all of my circle of straight friends, and (straight) siblings and (straight) elderly mother would. In fact, my mother would like nothing better than to see me married off, and wouldn't give a rats arse that it would be to another guy rather than a woman.

Oh, not quite all my family are so supportive - my father and I didn't speak for over 20 years, due largely to his difficulties with accepting homosexuality. But I wouldn't treat his views on marriage all that seriously - though he certainly had plenty of experience, having been married seven times!
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
A final post (probably) this evening on this topic.

The fundamental flaw in the pro gay posters thinking over the last few days has been in terms of "the anti gay marriage brigade is trying to convince us of their views".

I haven't been. I don't expect to be able to convince a single staunch pro gay marriage supporter to change their mind.

Equally the stupidity of the pro gay loby is that it think it can change the minds of those who fundamentally oppose it. You can't.

So on one side we have a pro gay marriage lobby fighting a debate versus anti gay marriage supporters on grounds that make it impossible for it to win.

What then is the objective of the anti gay marriage supporters? Simply this, to hold the line, to refuse to succumb to a vehement and vitriolic gay lobby who see any opponent as "bigoted" and "homophobic".

Let's look at the definition of those two words:

1 Bigoted - intolerant, biased, obstinate, opinionated, partial, partisan etc. etc. etc.

Well maybe it's me but it looks like the gay lobby is bigoted towards the anti gay marriage supporters.

2 Homophobic - "unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality"

I don't feel any fear towards homosexuals and the only "antipathy" I feel is towards those homosexuals who confronted by disagreement of their apparent self evident truths revert to "bigot" etc.

The aim on the part of many anti gay marriage supporters is to make it quiet clear that being anti-gay marriage is a rational, legitimate point of view that a large number of reasonable members of society hold.

If I can argue the pro gay taliban to a standstill here then it holds that the anti gay marriage supporters have a fair chance of arguing them to a standstill when the "debate" eventually comes around many years from now.

That has been my aim and in that so far I and a number of others have succeeded.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"I said I was at the point of refusing to hire a gay person becuase I am sick to death with the gay activist lobby."

Oh so that makes it alright then does it? You're allowed to break the law just because you throw a tantrum? And you didn't say "you were at the point of refusing to hire gay people" - you said very clearly that you would not hire gay people full stop. That is illegal and you've been caught out.

You've said repeatedly that you would not support any gay rights issue and refuse the acknowledge the law where gay rights are concerned in your duties as an employer.

Most employers are happy to abide by the law, so there are few problems, but where workers have been sacked on blantantly discriminatory grounds, prosecutions have been made.

Once I've got your full name, here's hoping you're the next.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Your very existence offends a lot of people. It would probably be better for society if you didn't exist. Is it therefore legitimate to call for your execution?

That makes about as much sense as your argument.

It's rather selfish to think of a legal formalising of a partnership as exclusively heterosexual. What about those who aren't heterosexual? Don't you think they might like to share in marriage, rather than have a 2nd class civil partnership?

Providing the partnership involves consenting adults who love each other, I don't see what the problem is. Many heterosexuals would probably welcome same-sex marriage I might add.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You lose every argument you get into because of you're extreme ignorance, and this case is unsurprisingly no different.

God may well exist, but then again so may the Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas - there is equal evidence (or more precisely, the lack of it) for all of these myths. Not one of them can be proven to exist, nor disproven.

So the point is, nobody can quote the Bible as fact because it simply isn't.

Dress it up as much as you like, but religion is a belief, the same as believing in any fictional work, not fact.

Is you can't understand that, then you've already lost the argument.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You're not a scientist, you're an extremely ignorant and boorish indiividual who bases his thinking on life on prejudices and bigotry rather than rational thinking and reason.

What is it that you find so difficult to understand about the fact that there is absolutely no proof that God exists. It makes not one ounce of difference how many people BELIEVE in God, it is always just a belief - not a fact in reality.

Some people call for lowering the age of consent with perfectly good intentions, I don't happen to agree with them, but that doesn't make them paedophiles.

Funny how you're still engaging with a discussion on gay rights when you previously said you would never do so again. Remarkable how your arguments are dominated by inconsistency and u-turns isn't it?
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I said I was at the point of refusing to hire a gay person becuase I am sick to death with the gay activist lobby.

Frankly I'd break loads of damn laws rather than have to work with someone like you monkey.

Please link where I said I'd refuse to support "any 'rights' for gay people" as I've said over and over I support numerous rights for gay people.

By the way, you clearly don't ever have to hire people do you? You can pretty much hire whoever you want so long as you have documentation laying out valid reasons why you took the action you did. Exactly how many legal actions have been brought against companies for not hiring a gay applicant?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I am a scientist and an agnostist.

You know damn well why I quoted the bible don't be so dim.
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
The Foreign Secretary did no such thing and you know it. He said:

"there is a debate to be had over equalising the rights of ‘married’ heterosexual and homosexual couples"

That in political speak is about as non comittal a statement as you can get.

Also the fact that the "PM's wife was made clear about the importance of the issue" means nothing either. If I were to pidgeon hole the PM's wife with a number of agreeing supporters about the strength of feeling that marriage should remain the historic institution it is , would that mean anyone was suddenly in favour of my views?

The Labour party is not comitted to this and has not included it on it's legislative agenda. One of it's leading lights says a "debate" needs to be had, but gives no idea when between whom and in what form. It's in the long grass and you know it.

Once Labour lose the next election and the Tories are most likely elected (and probably for more than one term) gay marriage as an issue disappears as even of minor importance.

Therefore I'm fel secure in saying gay marriage isn't on the political agenda for the best part of the next 10 years minimum.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Marrying him involves the deminuation of an institution a lot of heterosexuals hold dear.

Therefore in societal terms is does involve a lot of other people.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Muslims don't make up 10% of the population, it's nearer 4%. There are more gay people in this country than Muslims.

Honour killings are very clearly wrong (nobody would accept murder), where as same-sex marriage isn't because it doesn't harm anyone and actually provides a great deal of joy to those gay people who would now be able to get married.

Sharia Law often works against equality, where as same-sex marriage is pro-equality so it's ridiculous to compare the two.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
They believe in "such things" because they have spiritual faith. That by definition can not be weighed, mesured and accounted for in scientific terms.

I have a degree of religious faith due to certain experiences, but I am agnostic rather than subscribing to one "truth". Again I am a scientist and yet can not account for the "experiences" so keep an open mind that the religious may be right.

As for the "You can't disprove something" the whole basis of modern science is based upon the concept of critical rationalism which is the logical structure of trying to disprove a null hypothesis, if you cant then you accept as fact the hypthesis within the statistical framework.

It is this basis that leads a large number of scientists to have an open mind on religion.

You don't want to get into this with me as you will lose the argument badly.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Again you refer to "proof" and don't grasp the basic premise of being unable to "prove" anything only disprove.

As an aside show me millions and millions of people who believe in Santa Claus as they believe in a deity?

I could list the endless people of sound mind who believe and have faith in a "god" and yet probably all had doubts. THe issues you muddle are onse of scientific acceptance and faith. They are fairly mutually exclusive.

I'm far more of the scientist than you yet I can accpet religion as a realistic viewpoint and not assign a silly analogy such as father christmas as a reason to disbelieve religion.

With regard to the Outrage point, in response to:

"Could you also clarify whether it is paedophilia for a 30 year old to sleep with a 14 year old"

you said:

"I'd say so yes, given I don't support lowering the age of consent."

Outrage are in favour of legalising sex from the age of 14, in other words legalising sex between a 30 year old and a 14 year old.

So by extension you agree that an organisation pushing for lowering the age of consent to 14 is paedaphilic.

I have 15 and 13 year old daughters and am in no doubt that any organisation pushing for age of consent to start at 14 is wrong and very definitely paedaphilic in outlook.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
But this certainly isn't what you've been saying.

You very clearly are anti-gay because you said that you would illegally refuse to hire anybody who was gay (something which I hope you'll end up being prosecuted for). You also said previously that you would refuse to support any 'rights' for gay people, so presumably that includes civil partnerships?
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I don't regard Outrage as a paedophilic institution and never said I did. I simply don't agree with lowering the age of consent. Not everybody who does believe in lowering it is necessarily a paedophile.

I wouldn't say my logic is flawed. There is about as much evidence for the existence of God as there is for existence of Father Christmas. Nobody has ever provided a shred of proof for the existence of either.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Issues like those involve other people without their consent. My marrying the man I love involves no one except me, him, a couple of witnesses and a registrar.

(Also, not that it's particularly relevant, but do you have a source for that 10% claim? The most recent estimate I know of is 2.4m, or somewhat under 5%.)
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Nick, I did not feel it necessary to introduce civil partnerships - sovereign Parliament did. As far as the Church is concerned (and I'll use 'C of E' for 'Church' from now on), that's for them to decide whether to conduct a marriage service in a church between two homosexuals : it's their club.

However, should the C of E decide to accept marriages between homosexual partners, I can see a mighty schism opening between the C of E and sovereign Parliament in the event that sovereign Parliament feels unable to endorse like marriages in civil buildings, and that will take someone with the brainpower of Charlie Faulkner to resolve - it's certainly between the reach of what I've got between my ears.

My main point was that I just feel uneasy with the concept of 'marriage' between homosexuals. Some may call that 'cultural baggage', but I assure you, as mentioned in my post, I am easy with people no matter what, as long as they are courteous and so on.
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
It certaintly isn't. The Church was a disgrace for allowing it to continue for so many decades. Shows where their principles lie.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Christian marriage? Who was talking about Christian marriage? Marriage is a legal institution, available to people to all religions and none. The fact that you, and others, keep referring back to 'Christian marriage' is very revealing.
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
No, the onus is on the believers to tell us why they believe in such things.

You can't disprove something. That's like me asking you to disprove the existence of Father Christmas.

Speaking of childish, I'm not the one who believes in mystical fairies and gods up the sky who have magical powers. Thankfully, the more rational amongst us don't need to cling onto such childish faith to get us through life.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Every state in the US used to have the same definition. Many of them changed it. Why can't we?
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Not at all. A colossal amount has been achieved over the past 12 years. I can't see why same-sex marriage won't either.

This weekend alone we had the LibDem leader and the Foreign Secretary both support (explicitly and tacitly respectively) calls to legalise same-sex marriage. Even the PM's wife was made clear about the importance of the issue which she campaigned on the London Pride parade.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Yes I can see the logic of the gay community thinking that my "argument is the equivalant of saying 'Black people can not marry in a church".

My point in response is that my anti gay marriage position seeks to defend the rights of a historic heterosexual institution rather than being "anti gay" per se. I would equally defend the rights of gay couples to enter into a CP as I do defend the institution of marriage as it is.

I have no moral opposition to gay CPs in a church so long as the parent church agrees with it.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Again if you equate "Santa Claus" who is an accepted fictional figure in the UK (not the Saint Nicholas figure from around Europe) with a religious text held to be historical and religious fact then can I say your reasoning is very very flawed.

Interesting that by extension you would regard Outrage to be a paedaphilic institution. I suspect that view would result in your gay causes having all manner of problems.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Paedophilia is a hobby of choice in Church these days. To make light of this very serious crime and the failings of, in particular, the Catholic church over many decades to deal with it when it occurred within its ranks is not remotely funny.
Bob Roberts @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Therefore when you feel you can disprove the bible and Christianity go for it.

As a scientist and agnostic I have to accept that the bible may be right and Christians may be right. I may have a higher begreee of scepticism than on other things but none the less I have to accept it as a possiblity.

As such I have to accept the Christian viewpoint (which is 2,000 years old, so not a jonny come lately grouping) as a valid viewpoint.

The difference with your "Dr. Seuss' 'Cat in the Hat'" analogy, which I am amazed you picked as your counterpoint, is that the author wrote it as a piece of children's fiction. The writers of the bible wrote it as hidtorical and religious fact.

Had you compared the Church of Scientology then you may have had a valid point. I would also have to accept the Scientologist view as valid in terms of a legal and acceptable set of views to hold, if also holding it in an exceptionally higher level of scepticism than I do hold to Christianity.

Your arguments are exceptionally childish.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Errrrrr Alan how dare you assume that I am

* a devout Christian
* a Ms (whatever that is some kind of joke thought up in Soho Sq or The Candy Bar?)

and you forgot ....your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant. You already let slip that you are not gay so maybe the female servant would be your choice...we could carry out a LL contributor's poll of preference male vs female.

If I had a son who said he was gay then I would be accepting of his adult, informed life style choice. However that would not change my views on marriage.

My paternal stock are Jewish and the maternal side is Catholic do not assume that I am a devout Christian. When you refer to an obsession surely it’s the pro LGBT marriage supporters who are obsessed not others like myself.

I am the least prejudiced person you would find. When sitting at Wembley watching England play I do cheer for England and at Twickenham (that's where Rugby Union is played) if we are playing against France I cheer for both sides much to my husband's distress.

The only lesson I would give you is one in making the last part of a sentence follow on from the first.

Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I'd say so yes, given I don't support lowering the age of consent.

I don't agree with religion, if that's what you mean. But that is in no way bigoted. I'm just disagreeing with something for which there is no evidence for. It's no different than disagreeing with someone for being a Conservative.

An equivalent of what you're saying is 'I don't believe in Santa Claus, therefore I must be bigoted against Christmas'. Makes no sense.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Civil marriage was set up as a state based institution between man and women because the state accepted that "marriage" was a "religious institution".

You argument rather flies in the face of political reality.

As for the churches, there are 2 seperate issues:

1 The issue of "marriage" as a heterosexual institution, why we have gone over many many times

2 THe issue of "church" acceptance of same sex marriage. Individual churches may want to carry out same sex marraiges, but if they go in opposition to their established church view then they won't be in said church and the actual church building will revert back to the "church" and whichever minister or priest they wish to place in there.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"which is bound to happen someday"

Why is it "bound to happen"? Yet more inability on your part to accept there is a widely held and stongly held view in direct opposition to your own.

Anyway as Mr Milliband's comments on LL show that "bound to happen" is a long long way off isn't it?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
So the "church" is a paeodophile institution?

Care to list how many convicted paedophiles in the UK have been from the "church" (whichever church that may be).

Again you wouldn't be bigoted against religion would you monkey?

Could you also clarify whether it is paedophilia for a 30 year old to sleep with a 14 year old given that Outrage supports lowering the age of consent to 14?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
So when our elected representatives legalise same-sex marriage (which is bound to happen someday), it will be the will of the people.

Good, glad to hear it.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Ahh now I can accept your logic here to an extent.

I personally would have no problem with CPs being held at religious buildings (Church, Mosque, Temple) etc. if the religions in question accpeted it.

The problem you have is that to do so would almost certainly split parishes, diocese and church (not to mention other religion) and cuase significant schism. Therefore I don't think you are likely to get very far with that.

As for why have a civil marriage and not a CP, that's because civil marriages were introduced well before CPs at a time when society clearly thought (and still does I think) that "marriage" meant man and women.

So we have "marriage", "civil marriage" and "civil partnership" all carrying the same legal rights and each catering for a different group. I see no issue with this and I think there is no issue other than blind determination to remove any specific heterosexual institutions by parts of the gay community.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
No it isn't bigoted, it's perfectly rational to criticise a book for which there is absolutely no evidence that it represents reality. It's no different than criticising an adult for still believing in Father Christmas.

I can equally say that you have no proof one way or another whether Dr. Seuss' 'Cat in the Hat' is fictional. Your dismissal of his book is highly bigoted.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Thanks for dropping to the levels you supposedly didn't want to see on LL
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Certain words are taken as in are used in common parlance....

Marriage: the formal union of a man and a woman, by which they become husband and wife.

No of course not, perhaps they live together, or have a civil partnership or live in a commune. They can't be considered married just as I can't be considered 'olive skinned' because my father is French...in fact my skin is rather pale.

In your deflection arguement not I or the state would consider the lesbians to be married.

And no, there is no need to change the law.

The multitude of postings on this subject over the past few days reminds me of a situations I encountered in my professional life where because a sub set of a group could not for various reasons, ie: lack of talent/accomplishment, gender or there just was not an activity for them to participate in at the same time as others the event did not go ahead.
For example golfers wanted to attend a golf day at Wentworth but funding was rejected due to a stipulation for attendees to have golf shoes/fullset of clubs and bag and experience of playing on a course.
Christian marriage has it's own rule set. Really get over it.
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
How are "bible lessons" any less valid than lessons in gay rights from the pro gay lobby?

I'm agnostic in leaning so I have a serious problem in accepting that the bible is anything other than an historic account of the life and times of a race (the Jews) and a major historic and religious figure (Jesus).

The scientist in me though says, Christianity may be right and as I can't disprove it I have to accept it as a valid possibility. I can assign a degree of scepticism to it but I can't dismiss it as a possibility.

Therefore to my mind a Christian (or any religious) view on gay rights has as legitimate right to be heard as the pro gay lobby. The only exception to this would be the promotion of stoning and hanging of gays which is not "religious" but an abhorant twisting of religion.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"As I understand things, the established Church has felt unable to ‘join two people together in Holy Matrimony’ when one (or both) are divorced, or not confirmed as a member of the Church and so the state stepped in via marriage in a Registrar’s Office. The law recognises both forms of marriage and, indeed, when problems arise, will not discriminate as to where the marriage occurred."

That being so, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you feel it was necessary to create the curious anomaly of CP's, rather than just having civil marriage for gay people - exactly like the divorced, etc.

I'm at even more of a loss as to why you think the law should actively prohibit gay people getting legally joined in a church that wishes to carry out the ceremony.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Muslims represent 10% of the population. TWICE the population of gays. Should we allow them honour killings, stonings of gays and Sharia Law?

Just asking like. Sauce for the goose and all that....
Old Holborn @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
And there endeth the first lesson, Ms Normandy.

I am not gay, but I really do get very angry when people hide behind the Scriptures (or anything else, really, but especially the Scriptures)to vent a prejudice. Especially this one. people do not decide to "become gay" just to annoy readers of the first book of the Old Testament, or men, like one we have on this site, who has an unhealthy obsession on the topic, whilst pretending distaste.

I sometimes wonder what you "devout Christains" would do if their son turned out to be gay. Surely one of the main tenets of Christianity is compassion and understanding. Most of the Christians I have heard on this topic, who take a dim view of it, show neither compassion, understanding or tolerance.

If we followed everything in the Bible, we would still be trying not to covet our neighbours Ox.

You are free to believe what you like, but please don't start giving us bible lessons.
Alan Giles @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Not sure I can stretch to an apology considering some of recent, shall we call them conversations?

There is an answer to the problem but it means one side conceding to the other, which if this heated debate proves, isn't going to happen at this point in time.

I grant you that it is difficult to debate, but just as you find it offensive to be branded a bigot or a homophobe, that is more to do with your method of expressing a point Guy. If you'd approached the debate differently it may have been a very different argument, much in the same way as debating socialism versus conservatism. You don't have to agree with someone's point of view to be civil, but point taken, both sides have used heated language to express their views.

While we're on a more sensible plain, and don't get annoyed again because I'm asking a question, can you see that to the gay community that your argument is the equivelant of saying 'Black people can not marry in a church'? I'm not asking you to agree with homosexual marriages in a church, what I am asking is can you see, even for a moment, why there is anger and upset about this issue? Can you understand their logic even if you still disagree with their stance?
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I think your party also sees the economy, jobs, health, education, defence, environment, europe, energy, transport, poverty, industry, agriculture etc. etc as fringe issues.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"Fringe" issue?

As in not as important as the economy, jobs, health, education, defence, environment, europe, energy, transport, poverty, industry, agriculture etc. etc?

Yes by that definition I'd say they are a "fringe issue".
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Marriage existed long before organised religion ever did, so it obviously isn't a religious institution.

Most couples who get married today have a civil marriage anyway, so no religion is involved.

And what about those churches which do want to perform same-sex marriages (and there are plenty of them). Why do you want to deny them their religious rights?
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You are evidential proof that gay rights are a Labour issue, and a "fringe issue" for the Tories, as your wonderful leader once said.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Richard, I think you've misunderstood the point here. Or perhaps I should have been clearer.

Of course those countries which don't recognise same-sex relationships aren't going to recognise a British same-sex marriage.

But, places such as New York state or South Africa which do recognise same-sex relationships, only recognise same-sex MARRIAGE (as that is what their law dictates) and do not recognise civil unions or civil partnerships, so a British couple in a civil partnership who travel there would not be recognised in that jurisdiction, where as they would if they were married.

Hope that clears things up.

Personally, all equality matters are important to me. Adoption rights, inheritance rights etc. have already been achieved, so I think now is the right time to look at same-sex marriage. It's good to see politicians starting to understand this too.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Please link where I have slated homosexuality?

Once again you can't acknowledge a view point that is opposed, for instance, to gay marriage could be a legitimate view held on a sincere set of beliefs.

This is just more of the same nonsense of the last few days where the pro gay lobby refuses to countenance an opposing view as anything other than bigotry and homophobia.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
" I never had a sports team member who was gay and on and on."


If you carry on there, like you do here, as a sort of obsessed saloon bar bore, I'm not surprised they wouldn't tell you.

It is, I suppose an indication of just how prejudiced this country still is, that most professional sportsmen who were gay would never admit it. The only professional footballer I can ever remember "coming out" was the late Justin fashenu, who had to endure the bigotry not only of the "fans" but his brother John. The poor chap killed himself in the end.

So stop being naive, it may well be that the bloke in the shower next to you is gay, and while he applies the shampoo is casting longing glances at your (doubtless perfect) body.

Sorry to be rude, but what an idiot you are, and what trash you do talk at times.
Alan Giles @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Katherine doesn't see it as fictional.

You have no proof one way of another.

You dismissal of her position is very bigoted against the religios.

But then that sort of bigotry is ok for you isn't it?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"Or maybe the "nice" as in the ludicrously false comment over 33% of men have had a "homoerotic encounter" used in a clear way to imply 33% of men are or have been inclined at one time or another."

Guy this topic really floats your boat doesn't it?

Actually the Kinsey report some years ago gave a very high figure for men who had had at least one homosexual encounter in their adult lives, and this tended to be backed up in Kaye Wellings et al 1994 survey into sex trends.

Then you have men who are not able to find female company (oil rig workers, soldiers, sailors and prisoners) who would regard themselves as heterosexual, who, nontheless indulge in same sex liasons because of their circumstances.

And, of course, there are men who are bisexual.

In my limited experience, people who go on at inordinate length about homosexuality, how revolted they are, how "unnatural" it is etc etc while emphasising how "normal" they are (frequent references to the wife and kids) are themselves homosexual and ashamed of it. If it didn't concern/intrique/titillate you so much you wouldn't think about it, still less obssess about it.

And regarding your beloved Tory party. Fine upstanding men..... I bet none of them are gay?
Alan Giles @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Also, international recognition of civil partnerships is very weak compared to same-sex marriage.

Just out of interest, do you really think that if the UK (more likely GB since I doubt if Northern Ireland would accept it) legalised gay marriage would other countries (and by other, I don't mean unimportant ones) recognise them? I seriously doubt that the US, or Russia, or China would recognise them. In which case, what's the point?

FWIW I support gay marriage, but I think that far more important is legal equality in things like inheritance, adoption and next of kin rights.
Richard Blogger @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Oh boy! Look where ‘equal rights’ leads us ….

Although I would not quite put it in the language that Guy M uses, I do understand his feelings towards this. It’s an assault on what he understands ‘marriage’ to mean. It’s also an assault on what I understand ‘marriage’ to mean : the joining of a man and a woman in Holy Matrimony (and I am not a practising Christian). It’s also an assault on what a lot of other people think the word ‘marriage’ means, whether or not there’s ‘cultural baggage’ (a throw-away cliché) attached.

As I understand things, the established Church has felt unable to ‘join two people together in Holy Matrimony’ when one (or both) are divorced, or not confirmed as a member of the Church and so the state stepped in via marriage in a Registrar’s Office. The law recognises both forms of marriage and, indeed, when problems arise, will not discriminate as to where the marriage occurred. I was confirmed into the Church of England (fifty or so years ago) but nowadays, like Attlee : ‘I believe in the ethics, can’t stand the mumbo-jumbo.’

I was born in 1944, have voted Labour all my life (forgive me, Guy M). As far as homosexuals are concerned, homosexuality has been around since God was a boy, and eventually, the Sexual Offences Act of 1967 finally recognised this (5,971 years after the date that Bishop Usher declared as the creation of the earth). I meet people as I find them, and as long as they are basically courteous, I don’t give fig whether they are male, female, black, white, pink, polka dot or whatever else. A mild degree of affability is a bonus.

However, the proposal of state-recognised ‘marriages’ between homosexuals just seems to me (call it ‘gut feeling’) a step too far ; it’s a Humpty-Dumpty use of our language as we know it : "When I choose a word, it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less." Sometimes, definitions are inviolable, regardless of the concept of a ‘changing language.’

Finally, I would like to close with the words of Lord Arran, as the Act was passed in 1967 who, in an attempt to minimise criticisms that the legislation would lead to further public debate and visibility of issues relating to homosexual civil rights made the following qualification to this 'historic' milestone: "I ask those [homosexuals] to show their thanks by comporting themselves quietly and with dignity… any form of ostentatious behaviour now or in the future or any form of public flaunting would be distasteful.”

And actually - shouldn't we all - male, female, black, white, pink, polka dot or whatever else comport ourselves quietly and with dignity?
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Why are you quoting a fictional work at me and presenting it as fact?

You may as well have quoted "Cat in the Hat" by Dr. Seuss as that would have about equal weight in this discussion.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I see so if I was to fail to recognise a gay couple as "married", but accpeted there legal rights as under a CP where would that place me?

I, for instance, would refuse to recognise in public (work, social, politics) at any point that Mr Smith and Mr Jones were Mr & Mr Smith. I'd refuse to acknoledge in public (work, social, politics) that Mr jones was Mr Smith's husband and vice vera.

Would you seek to enforce me to say something I didn't believe in and if so how?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I refer you to my reply below:

"I'm supporting diversity by allowing the heterosexual community to retain an historic institution that has always been heterosexual whilst agreeing from a basic freedom point of view to supporting an equal institution for gay couples."

You though are in your way opposing diversity except you refuse to acknowledge hte alternative view.

As Bill Dewison point out:

"Watching this debate, there are two totally different stand points that will never ever agree no matter how logical an argument on either side"

THe fact is though that you won't even acknowledge there is a legitimate point of view that differs from your own.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
The take issue with the monotonous, repetitive, unhelpful, distracting, pulverising comments from the pro gay lobby then.

Unless of course there's bias in moderation on LL?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
PS Guy, I'm going to take half an hour for dinner if I may. Please don't get blustery if your posts aren't published instantaneously.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Previously, there was a comment along the lines of 'I post here everyday, at every article, because I want people the public to get the alternative view.' In fact, there's a name for that... it's called ConservativeHome. You should check it out.
Gabe Trodd @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Certainly Alex, once you explain how you reply from an anti gay marriage perspective when contronted with "you are only against as you must be gay", or you are a "bigot", "homophobe", "scared of gay conversion" etc.

If you want to pick up on inflammatory language then be even handed, if not then admit to bias.

The choice is yours.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
We're not going to ban all non-LAbour people. We don't want out head in the sand. We just want to bury our heads from the monotonous, repetetive, unhelpful, distracting, pulverising comments. Just keep it value-added. Thanks, Guy.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I totally agree Tory T and Guy M

Wedlock would be my choice but then I have marriage so I would not be the one to vote.
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Then ban all non Labour posters and be clear about that policy.

But don't pretend then to host open debate.

If you want an exclusively Labour minded only forum then do it, I've said before those from the right will be happy to see the narrowing of LL in that way as an acceptance of being unable to out debate those not of your persuasion.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Indeed. See other comment.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Absolutely agreed. It's not censorship. We know how you feel guy. You've spoken and been heard. Please contribute to the debate constructively from now on.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Then they won't reply Alex.

Boredom and censorship are significantly different things
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I've done nothing of the sort.

I support CPs and did so all along.

I'm supporting diversity by allowing the heterosexual community to retain an historic institution that has always been heterosexual whilst agreeing from a basic freedom point of view to supporting an equal institution for gay couples.

That argument is lost on you however isn't it.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Is that the 'I hate socialism' contributor? If so, I would say that Labour, LabourList contibutors and the level of debate at LabourList would significantly benefit from less posts about largely hating socialism...
Gabe Trodd @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I agree with your first sentence except I would clarify that the two people intended to become 'married' are a man and a woman.

Gen. 2:18, 21-24
The Lord God said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him'...and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.

Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man.' For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

I really do not need to enlightened in the way you suggest.
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I think it's more just that people are bored of you, Guy.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Actually ATT, whilst Guy's view of the more extreme campaign elements of the gay community is in more colourfull language than I would choose.

I disagree with the idea of gay marriage as well.

So, you feel lucky enough to take me on too Peter?

Yeah, thought not.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
So if "labour minded" people want to drop to "if you don't agree with gay rights you must be gay" that's acceptable.

And the "Labour" view is gay marriage is a must, so no Labour catholic or muslim members then?

So what you are basically saying Alex is that you will tolerate endless pro gay insults and views but don't like the views of a significant proportion of the population who oppose gay rights such as gay marriage?

Thank you for making that clear for all to see, I rest my case.

Although the chance of you posting this is slim as it highlights the argument has been lost on your side.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Wait hold up, you're accusing others of not accepting diversity!!!

Talk about Orwellian newspeak. You're the one who sides with the Taleban in that you want to strip away freedom and repress anyone who doesn't fit into your blinkered view of the world.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Marriage is a religious institution and has been for over 1000 years in the UK.

In Europe, around 500AD the Christian ideas of marriage superceded the Roman, Pagan and Barbarian concepts around marriage, the concept of a marriage between man and wife and idea of it being indissolube in life.

By the pre-Middle Age, Christainity had taken hold in the UK and the concept of marriage being a religious ceremony was well entrenched in all Christian churches.

The State subsequently took an interest as marriage was seen a stable environment to pass on assets and establish power between families especially nobility. Henry VIII very famously, of course, took great interest in the concept of marriage.

In terms of modern statue, the Marriage Act of 1753 set the legal framework for the civil rights of marriage we have now.

So, you can spout rubbish if you like but marriage as a religious institution between man and woman and has existed in the Christian church in Europe for over 1600 years.

I explained lower down this threas that blessings did exist in the Greek Orthodoxy chuch between men but these were not the same as marriage rites but 'blood brother' oaths.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Marriage involves formalising a relationship between two people who love each other.

I (and many others) will keep fighting for marriage equality until it's achieved. I know you want to hog marriage for yourself, but I'd call that selfish.

The more you try to compare homosexuality to incest, or even 'marrying yourself', the more we know you're losing the argument.

Incidentally, the people of Massachusetts are generally very happy with same-sex marriage. The sky didn't fall in. Maybe you should go and visit there Katherine and see how enlightened mankind can be.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Possibly one of the best posts on this I've seen yet.

The fact is the gay lobby can't answer this and doesn't really care as all it is interested in is it's own narrow "rights" issue.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Kudos to you and maybe an apology is in order as well.

Your comment of:

"I see your point on that to a certain degree, other groups have things that are exclusive to them, so why not hetrosexual groups. I haven't really got an answer to that, as allow I can see from a gay perspective why they might want the right to marry in a church as part of their religion and CP don't allow that to happen, I can also see that some groups should be allowed exclusivity on certain things."

goes to the heart of the matter.

All the posts I have seen this weekend from the hard line gay activist lobby refuse to accept the standpoint that as a group, heterosexuals might want some things that are exclusive to them.

As you say, there isn't an easy answer as:

"there are two totally different stand points that will never ever agree no matter how logical an argument on either side".

The proble is the gay lobby absolutely refuses to accept that the opposite stand point has any right ot existance or to be heard as it is "bogoted", "homophobic" and "secretly gay".

The very way in which they operate drives large nmumbers of the general public in the opposite dirction they want it to go.

The fact the neither are aware of care of the effect they cause as they are sure in their own righteousness means the analogu with the Taliban is accurate and relevant.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Thanks Nick.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Alex, I think your forbearance has been exemplary (both with Guy, and probably with some of the rest of us).

However, as far as I'm concerned, I've reached saturation point on having to read stuff from a bigot who is so strongly opposed to basic Labour values in all respects (not just about equality issues).
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
If you wish to campaign to be allowed to CP someone rather than marry them, I'd certainly support you.

If you wish to set up an exclusive legal relationship open only to the able-bodied, members of a particular ethic minority, public sexual orientation, age or whatever other discriminatory grounds you can think of, you will not have my support. Clear enough?

Oh, and I'm not a "gay activist" - there are more important political issues. Just an average gay disabled left-leaning middle-aged man ...
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
A SCENE AT CITY HALL SOMEWHERE IN MASSACHUSETTS

"Next."

"Good morning. We want to apply for a marriage license."

"Names?"

"Tim and Jim Jones."

"Jones? Are you related? I see a resemblance."

"Yes, we're brothers."

"Brothers? You can't get married."

"Why not? Aren't you giving marriage licenses to same gender couples?"

"Yes, thousands. But we haven't had any siblings. That's incest!"

"Incest?" No, we are not gay."

"Not gay? Then why do you want to get married?"

"For the financial benefits, of course. And we do love each other.
Besides, we don't have any other prospects."

"But we're issuing marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples
who've been denied equal protection under the law. If you are not gay,
you can get married to a woman."

"Wait a minute. A gay man has the same right to marry a woman as I have.
But just because I'm straight doesn't mean I want to marry a woman.
I want to marry Jim."

"And I want to marry Tim, Are you going to discriminate against us
just because we are not gay?"

"All right, all right. I'll give you your license. Next."

"Hi. We are here to get married."

"Names?"

"John Smith, Jane James, Robert Green, and June Johnson."

"Who wants to marry whom?"

"We all want to marry each other."

"But there are four of you!"

"That's right. You see, we're all bisexual. I love Jane and Robert,
Jane loves me and June, June loves Robert and Jane, and Robert loves
June and me. All of us getting married together is the only way that
we can express our sexual preferences in a marital relationship."

"But we've only been granting licenses to gay and lesbian couples."

"So you're discriminating against bisexuals!"

"No, it's just that, well, the traditional idea of marriage is that
it's just for couples."

"Since when are you standing on tradition?"

"Well, I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere."

"Who says? There's no logical reason to limit marriage to couples.
The more the better. Besides, we demand our rights!
The mayor says the constitution guarantees equal protection
under the law. Give us a marriage license!"

"All right, all right. Next."

"Hello, I'd like a marriage license."

"In what names?"

"David Deets."

"And the other man?"

"That's all. I want to marry myself."

"Marry yourself? What do you mean?"

"Well, my psychiatrist says I have a dual personality, so I want to
marry
the two together. Maybe I can file a joint income-tax return."

"That does it! You people are making a mockery of marriage!!"


and that is my point, stop this mocking of an institution that serves the majority of the planet's population. K.N.
Katherine Normandy @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
cross/vomit
Old Holborn @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I'm an animal rights activist.

I DEMAND that swans be allowed to marry in church.
Old Holborn @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Guy. I'm getting seriously bored of reading your bigoted posts. If our readers want to debate you, that's fine and please give me a signa if that's the case. Otherwise, Guy, please take your repetetive and exclusive comments elsewhere.
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Wasn't arguing that ATTs logic was correct, but the way you worded your question didn't really make a lot of sense and didn't appear to follow any logic.

In answer to your question, I'd imagine (and not being gay I'm answering from my own point of view on past events) that yes, the gay community may well argue that you can't have something exclusively hetrosexual.

I see your point on that to a certain degree, other groups have things that are exclusive to them, so why not hetrosexual groups. I haven't really got an answer to that, as allow I can see from a gay perspective why they might want the right to marry in a church as part of their religion and CP don't allow that to happen, I can also see that some groups should be allowed exclusivity on certain things.

For all the arguing Guy, I think the main point (aside from the definition of what marriage is and the gay community using the word marriage) being made is that if someone is gay happens to be religious, the law does not allow for that person to marry in a church even with the churches permission. That isn't so much an attack on the institution of marriage, more an attack on the government not allowing churches the freedom to decide.

Some churches may well be against the idea of homosexual marriage, others may agree with it, but having legislation to dictate that it is not possible even when the church is in agreement to an arrangement seems a bit illogical.

Watching this debate, there are two totally different stand points that will never ever agree no matter how logical an argument on either side. Not saying it should stop, just an observation.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"Nice"?

As in the the idiotic and to be expected "gay taliban" line of the only reason you are against gay marriage is you are secretly gay or scared of gay "conversion".

Because to be ideologically oppossed just isn't possible is it?

Or maybe the "nice" as in the ludicrously false comment over 33% of men have had a "homoerotic encounter" used in a clear way to imply 33% of men are or have been inclined at one time or another.

When you on the gay taliban side of things start dropping to silly "you don't like gay marriage because your gay" and blatant lies and distortion of research then we all know you've lost the argument.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"Marriage is about commitment, commitment to provide your children with a strong and stable family environment for them to grow up in."

Nope. You keep repeating this, but I'm afraid you're no closer to the truth.

Marriage is completely independent of whether a couple choose to have kids or not. There is no requirement whatsover to have children if you are married.

Try again, you'll get it sooner or later.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Well, if you want to get married, go to the right State in the US, their definition of marriage is different to ours.

You can then happily live as husband and husband.

However, if you want your marriage recognised in the UK, then it's law and religious tradition of the UK.

So I reckon that makes the UK's definition and history of marriage pretty damn important.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Another reply that still avoids the question asked.

Would you like a try Nick:

"If those of us who are opposed to gay marriage decided to change the name and ceremony from "marriage" to say a ceremony of "wedlock" or "matrimony" and stated that "wedlock" or "matrimony" was only open to heterosexual couples would you complain?

Would you complain if we lobbied the state to legally recognise "wedlock" or "matrimony" with the same legal status as marriage and CPs would the gay taliban lobby complain?"

Perhaps you could give an answer where so many of your fellow gay activists have chosen to avoid it?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Actually, we ALL decide because we decide who to elect to Parliament.

Parliament does not supercede the will of the people, ever.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Now, now.

Given the nursery-school level of your contributions, it seems appropriate to say "if you can't play nicely and share with the other boys and girls, you'll have to visit the naughty step".

So you don't want to share marriage with fags like me? Aw, diddums.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Answer the question monkey and lets see whether this is about gay rights or heterosexual repression:

If those of us who are opposed to gay marriage decided to change the name and ceremony from "marriage" to say a ceremony of "wedlock" or "matrimony" and stated that "wedlock" or "matrimony" was only open to heterosexual couples would you complain?

Would you complain if we lobbied the state to legally recognise "wedlock" or "matrimony" with the same legal status as marriage and CPs would the gay taliban lobby complain?

I note you've rfused to answer the above hypothetical question a number of times, wriggling you way all around it. Perhaps you, or one of your fellow gay activists will no answer it

Yes or no?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Again I note no answer to the question.

Is it because you don't have an answer?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Nice post, ATT
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"You have no problem then with them not recognising gay marriage?

I have no problem whatsoever with them declining to perform gay marriages. I would, however, object strongly if they were to fail to "recognise" gay marriages carried out in accordance with the law - for example, if a Catholic adoption agency were to treat married lesbians or gay men as single. One is the discretionary sphere of religious conviction, the other is the public sphere.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"You can't complain about ATTs logic"

I'm opposed to gay marriage and as a result I'm an

"undercover advocate for Stonewall"

or

"adolescent illusion that all gay men are trying to convert you"

or

"this homophobic anxiety is very revealing"

In other words the logic position ATT adopts that the only reason anyone could be anti gay marriage is that are secretly gay, or are scared of gay "conversion".

Seems pretty logic light to me Bill.

As for the question, how is the question illogical? The premise is simple, if the heterosexual "community" decided to start up a new heterosexual only institution without any of the historic issues around marriage would the gay lobby also be anti that.

In other words are the gay lobby comitted to fighting anything institution or grouping that is wholely and exclusively heterosexual?

That seems a logical question to ask and one that as of yet still has no answer.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You're the fundamentalist, who has an absolute obsession with denying a minority group their rights.

I've met some sad little Tory boys in my time, but you take the biscuit.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
"I was only joking" in that I was sure you did understand "as a basis" and were only being deliberately obtuse.

It seems that it was serious though, you really don't know.

So you lost the argument that you don't grasp the meaning of "basis"?

Lmao you are pitiful.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Yeh, you go for that Guy. You lead your one-man campaign to change heterosexual marriage to 'wedlock', lol!

Keep taking those pills Guy.

Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Yes he was wasn't he, totally unable to provide an answer.

Nice you agree
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Hey! The original content is good too, no!?
Alex Smith @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Laughable really.

I'm "fixated" with gay rights but you're "oppossed" to Tory policy.

THis rather goes to the heart of why people like you get nowhere in debate on this issue.

I'm not "fixated" with gay rights, I'm STRONGLY and DEEPLY anti certain gay right issues i.e. gay marriage. All you do, as is you usual ploy ATT, is to shoot the messenger. In this case by saying anyone anti these gay rights must be "scared" of gay "conversion" or secretly gay.

It's a debate level from a school playground "you're gay", "no I@m not you are", "no I'm not, you are" etc. etc.

You failed completely to reply to the issue you raised over the comment:

"I suppose therefore your fixation with Tory policies makes you a Tory? It doesn't indicate you are opposed to Tory policy then? What a f'd up line of logic"

So I'll just take it that you don't have an answer.

As for the "Kinsey was not part of any gay lobby. Please provide references so your claims to great sociological insight can be checked."

Kinsey was a scientist undertaking independent research on the subject area. I know you don't understand scientific research very well ATT, but the whole basis of legitimate scientific research is that you come at a subject area with a neutral standpoint as to what the results may be.

In addition Kinsey was married for 37 years (up until his death) and had 4 children. Now I know he could have been a "secretly repressed in the closet gay, working for the gay lobby and twisting his research to fit ", but lets say that it's more likely Area 52 contains Aliens and move past your moronic points.

As for the Taleban point, yep it got a reaction.

The raction though has no answer does it ATT? Gay rights activists and the Taleban. Both fundamentalist organisations of one sort of another, accepting no dissent and with a fever that thier own views are the "truth" and must be imposed upon society.

It's hard to tell whether you really are dumb or just playing up. I'll go with dumb, which of course means the ATT monicker is the best role you'll get to play.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
So which Tory Trolls have distanced themselves and given you permission to comment on their behalf and what's your reason for writing on LL if it is not to get a reaction. The one excellent thing about LL is it does not shy away from a difference of opinion. How boring this site would be if everyone agreed.
Bob Roberts @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Morys, you're certainly one of the extreme ones.

A Labour member who doesn't believe in equality and sides with the Daily Mail brigade. Extreme indeed.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Guy, what you don't seem to understand, is that it's the government and Parliament which determine what marriage is, not you and your merry band of bigots.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You can't complain about ATTs logic Guy and then post a comment that is completely devoid of logic or sense. Well, you can obviously because you just did.

Are you not tired of arguing the same point yet? Its been nearly a week now and you're no closer to when you began.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I think a comparison between Jews in the second world war and American slaves in the 19th century is dramatsing the situation somewhat.
Bob Roberts @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Busted.

I was only joking...

Busted

It didn't occur to you that I'd use "taliban" and "gay" together to get a reaction?

Busted.

Nothing to see here (but the carnage of months of failed posting). Move along.

"junior school kids who don't grasp basic language.".

Busted



anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
I repeat...

Who's fixated on LL, Gay Activists, and the push to 'convert' non gays?

Answers on a postcard (hint: only one letter separates Gay and Guy)

Kinsey was not part of any gay lobby. Please provide references so your claims to great sociological insight can be checked.

Still waiting for a reference to refute Kinsey

On the last Pro Gay Taliban: you reply

It didn't occur to you that I'd use "taliban" and "gay" together to get a reaction?

Of course I knew you were just trying to get a reaction. That's all you ever want Guy. That's why you, the self declared upper middle class rich busy international financier straight bloke, spend most your day on Labour List diaries, especially those that discuss homosexuality.

Let it be written for all to see:

Guy M confesses he writes on Labour list to "get a reaction".

We've known this from the beginning. Even your Tory fellow Trolls are distancing themselves because of your transparent need for conflict for self validation.

Job done. Troll exposed. Out of the mouths of babes.

I'll bookmark this for future use. In the meantime.

Guy. You're busted!

Next!








anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Terrible logic once again from ATT.

However lets ask the question that will really nail your colours to the mast:

"If those of us who are opposed to gay marriage decided to change the name and ceremony from "marriage" to say a ceremony of "wedlock" or "matrimony" and stated that "wedlock" or "matrimony" was only open to heterosexual couples would you complain?

Would you complain if we lobbied the state to legally recognise "wedlock" or "matrimony" with the same legal status as marriage and CPs would the gay taliban lobby complain?"
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Dear me you don't understand "as a basis" do you. I was only joking and didn't think you were that slow.

"As a basis" i.e. forms a base for something. So a marriage is a good base to have children as in foundations are a good base to build a house.

It doesn't mean you have to have the childrn or have to build a house, only that it is a "basis".

This is like debating with junior school kids who don't grasp basic language.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Again you don't see the point do you?

Two movements both as sure of their own righteousness as they are as sure that any disagreeing with them must be evil and hence destroyed.

The gay activist lobby and the Taliban seem very similar in the refusal to accept disagreement or diversity.

As I said, perhaps we should get NATO to invade Soho to save western civilisation.

Oh and you are very very slow on the uptake aren't you.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Handy when you get a question you can't answer.

Thanks for proving a point :)
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
You're missing the point. Yes, civil partnerships were a good step forward, but we've not reached equality yet. Only same-sex marriage will bring that about. Marriage is not a religious institution, and there's no good reason why homosexuals should be denied access to it. 'Separatate but equal', the kind of term used for racial segregation in the Southern US states is not good enough for the Labour party.

Also, it's wrong to say that there are no legal differences between marriage and civil partnership: dissolutions of civil partnerships are easier to get than divorce from marriage for example. Also, international recognition of civil partnerships is very weak compared to same-sex marriage.
Northern Monkey @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Firstly:

"If I was fixated on Tory policies, I'd be on conservativehome. But I'm not. And you're on Labourlist. Who's fixated now?"

My comment:

"I suppose therefore your fixation with Tory policies makes you a Tory? It doesn't indicate you are opposed to Tory policy then? What a f'd up line of logic"

Now read very very slowly and you'll see you just agreed with me i.e "What a f'd up line of logic" as in you think disagreeing with something means you secretly agree.

That's the great thing about arguing with you, you aren't that clever.

2nd point:

"Kinsey was not part of any gay lobby." - did I say anywhere he was?

I said:

"Kinsey's analysis has been questioned on a whole range of issues and subsequent research doesn't show that "a majority of men had, at one time or another, had a homoerotic encounter"."

In other words his research has been counter researched many times over

and

"Seriously the lies and distortion the gay lobby come out with to try and push this view that they are anythnig other than a small minority of the population is dumb beyond belief." as in the use of selective research like Kinsey's to distort the size of the gay population is dumb beyond belief.

At no point did I say Kinsey was gay. It's like saying environmental research gets abused my anti climate change individuals to push a dumb line. It doesn't mean the antis are climate change researchers.

That's the great thing about arguing with you, you aren't that clever.

Third point:

"My favourite line was 'Pro Gay Activist Taliban'. Of course, the Taliban, like the Iranian Religious Police, are famous for shooting, stoning and hanging homosexuals."

Noooo you don't say?

It didn't occur to you that I'd use "taliban" and "gay" together to get a reaction?

As in, a group of fundamentalists who won't accept any view of society other than their own and are vehemently opposed to any other version of the "truth" than their own?

Sounds like the gay activist lobby and the Taliban have a bit in common. Maybe NATO should invade Soho and save western civilisation.

Once again...

That's the great thing about arguing with you, you aren't that clever.

You'd best give up now.

Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Er... Nobody owns the English language. Marriage isn't already taken. The law changed earlier this decade. It can be changed again. That's life TT, and I'm surprised how avid you Tories are for government intervention in our private lives.

When it comes to child rearing, I know two lesbian couples who are exemplary parents: two girls in one family, two boys and a girl in another family. By your terms then, these two lesbian couples could be considered married?
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
More taliban references. Of course, that's what Peter Tatchell and Nick Weeks really mean. Let's go around stoning heterosexual couples! They should be banned!

Just when I think you've reached the pinnacle of reactionary idiocy, Guy, you top yourself with statements like this.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Marriage is about commitment, commitment to provide your children with a strong and stable family environment for them to grow up in. The same commitment that you hope they will be able to make when they decide to start their families.

Marriage is about demonstrating a sacrifice of self-interest as a step towards the further sacrifice of self-interest you will be making for your children.

It is better for marriage rates to decline than for it to be taken lightly/inappropriately.

If you don't like 'civil partnership' for whatever it is you do, get your own word, 'marriage' is already taken.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
So couples who don't have children have 'basically' failed marriage. Thanks for making that even clearer.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Guy. The great thing about arguing with you is you don't know when stop, and hang yourself with so much rope it's hard to choose which thread to finish you off with.

Here are just a few self defeating knots from a target-rich screed.

If I was fixated on Tory policies, I'd be on conservativehome. But I'm not. And you're on Labourlist. Who's fixated now?

Kinsey was not part of any gay lobby. Please provide references so your claims to great sociological insight can be checked.

My favourite line was 'Pro Gay Activist Taliban'. Of course, the Taliban, like the Iranian Religious Police, are famous for shooting, stoning and hanging homosexuals.

Thanks for reminding all of us here how nasty homophobia gets.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Sorry Guy, but since you decided you're not having anything to do with gay people I've decided to help out by ignoring you. :)
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
The Catholic Church and Islam are pretty clear on this issue.

You have no problem then with them not recognising gay marriage?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
The simple difference is this young man. Your ability to go or not go to Mecca is not constrained by the law of this land.

Personally I think everyone should go to Mecca, but I'm not a Saudi citizen, and don't have a vote there.

On the larger point...

There are institutions, rights and arrangements made throughout societ ythat only allow certain actions to be taken by a member or someone who confroms to that grouping.

Great. You've now explained it. Marriage is a club for heterosexuals only!

And that's what I, as a heterosexual, object to. The law is unfair. It suits you, but is rampantly unjust like all such discriminatory practices.

Great job, Guy. You've managed to convert this hetero into much stronger support of the rights to gay marriage. All the opinions you've expressed in this thread have driven me to extreme militancy...

Now are you sure you're not an undercover advocate for Stonewall?
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
What part of "as a basis" do you not understand?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Ok Thomas answer a question I asked earlier:

"If those of us who are opposed to gay marriage decided to change the name and ceremony from "marriage" to say a ceremony of "wedlock" or "matrimony" and stated that "wedlock" or "matrimony" was only open to heterosexual couples would you complain?

Would you complain if we lobbied the state to legally recognise "wedlock" or "matrimony" with the same legal status as marriage and CPs would the gay taliban lobby complain?"
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Ah the usual rubbish from the gay activist wing.

Anyone who doesn't agree with the gay lobby is clearly worried that "all gay men are trying to convert you". Either that of we're are closet homosexuals.

I suppose therefore your fixation with Tory policies makes you a Tory? It doesm't indicate you are opposed to Tory policy then? What a f'd up line of logic and so typical of the pro gay activist taliban.

Kinsey's analysis has been questioned on a whole range of issues and subsequent research doesn't show that "a majority of men had, at one time or another, had a homoerotic encounter". Seriously the lies and distortion the gay lobby come out with to try and push this view that they are anythnig other than a small minority of the population is dumb beyond belief.

"agree with us and you're progressive, disagree with us and you're a closet gay" seems to be the retarded line your like take.

As for the last sentence then go advise gay couples to have a CP and leave the majority population of heterosexuals in peace.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Sigh. 90 per cent of the UK is white, but we don't deny the other 10 per cent equal rights before the law because of their skin colour.

A small minority of Americans in the 19th Century were slaves. A minority of Americans were denied civil rights until the 1960s. A minority of Germans were Jews when laws were imposed depriving them of citizenship rights in 1933.

If only Old Holborn had been around to tell all these minorities...

GET OVER IT
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
And you're free set to set an organisation like the taliban as your views are equally as tolerant of differences others hold
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Duh? Guy, you sound like you suffer from the adolescent illusion that all gay men are trying to convert you. I don't know, maybe you're a bit of a looker, but this homophobic anxiety is very revealing.

Please pray tell me how the concept of 'Gay Marriage' - i.e. a committed monogamous long term relationship is in any way related to that.

As for the 33%, actually Kinsey recognised that a majority of men had, at one time or another, had a homoerotic encounter.

The reality of human sexuality is complex I'm afraid and has always been so. Marriage is a social construct, and has changed radically over the centuries. Divorce used to be illegal, and adultery punishable by death. But at the heart of it is love and commitment. I've seen gay men and women actually display this more than heterosexual couples among my friends. Go figure
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
So I want to campaign for my rights to end this civil partnership apartheid.

Feel free to do so, and I'll join you. Peter Tatchell already agrees with you.

Get this simple fact, marriage as a religious ceremony to join a heterosexual couple in a lifelong commitment pre-dates the legal formality of the Marriage Act by at least 900 years in the UK.

And marriage as a legal secular institution predates that by another millennium, though you seem to be ignoring this point every time I make it. Again, I ask: are you arguing that the state should only recognize the Christian definition of marriage?
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Sigh, here we go again

95% of the WHOLE WORLD is NOT gay.

GET OVER IT
Old Holborn @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
Your lefty view of the world ascribes duties to schools that are none of their business - their proper role is education, not social/moral engineering.

This is how good the state are using sex education to change behaviour -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8139315.stm

£6,000,000 of our money p*ssed up the wall and 230 *more* teenage pregnancies than if the programme had never existed.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 30 weeks and 5 days ago
So if I wanted a civil partnership rather than marriage to my wife, I could?

So I want to campaign for my rights to end this civil partnership apartheid.

Get this simple fact, marriage as a religious ceremony to join a heterosexual couple in a lifelong commitment pre-dates the legal formality of the Marriage Act by at least 900 years in the UK.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Are you deliberately ignoring the many, many examples of marriage as a secular institution, then? It's not a uniquely Christian institution, you're right; it's also not a uniquely religious, or uniquely heterosexual, one.

I could also turn this argument on its head and ask why are you refusing to accept diversity and our means of engaging in a lifelong commitment?

Your means of engaging in a lifelong commitment happens to also be a legal institution. Legal institutions should be open to all, not restricted based on claims of religious history. I really couldn't care less which churches choose to bless which relationships. I do care about the state offering 'separate but equal' institutions.
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
A "church" in question i.e. Anglican is likely to split over this very soon.

The Catholic Church certainly won't allow it.

I suspect that if you force gay "marriage" on society all that might happen is certain groups look to change what "marriage" is to them and may even change the name.

If those of us who are opposed to gay marriage decided to change the name and ceremony from "marriage" to say a ceremony of "wedlock" or "matrimony" and stated that "wedlock" or "matrimony" was only open to heterosexual couples would you complain?

Would you complain if we lobbied the state to legally recognise "wedlock" or "matrimony" with the same legal status as marriage and CPs would the gay taliban lobby complain?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
St Serge and St Bachus took part in a ceremony known as 'Adelphopoiesis' a literal translation from ancient Greek is 'brother making'.

Greek Orthodox theological history shows this to be a different ceremony to that of heterosexual marriage. Boswell (whose work was included in that link) attracted particular criticism for his poor interpretation and translation of Ancient Greek as well as the supposition he then inferred.

Nice try though. If anything it makes a case for a more tolerant Christian attitude to homosexuality which I absolutely support.

However, it's not marriage.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
So heterosexual couples who can't or don't want to have children are not technically 'married'?

No wonder you're tiring of my game TT. Your arguments are imploding in sad smoke of illogic and inadequacy.
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
No the final argument is that there are institutions, rights and arrangements made throughout societ ythat only allow certain actions to be taken by a member or someone who confroms to that grouping.

You say I can go to Mecca so long as I become a Muslim. But I want to remina a Christian so I can't go.

I say a gay man can get married if they want to become heterosexual but he wants to remain gay so he can't get married.

Please explain the difference?
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
"Given that around a third of the male population seem to experiment with same-sex sex at some point in their lives,"

Sounds like yet another gay myth.

Maybe you spent too much time around gays as I have never ben approached, my married friends are about as striaght as you get, I never had a sports team member who was gay and on and on.

This is now where you tell me "you just didn't know" and everyone is keeping it hidden due to repression or some nonsense like that. 33% of the male population have not had a "gay experience" and the gay taliban view to keep talking the % up so it gets nearer and nearer to 50% is both stupid and insulting at the same time.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Why was I not allowed to join the Brownies as a child?

That's how ludicrous your 'apartheid' accusation sounds.

I'm not saying it is restricted to you, I'm saying that it's a heterosexual institution and always has been; it is also an institution steeped in religion. The concept of heterosexual marriage exists in Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, Muslim religions; it is not a uniquely Christian institution either.

I could also turn this argument on its head and ask why are you refusing to accept diversity and our means of engaging in a lifelong commitment?
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
What is " really too stupid for words is to so grossly misread my post as to think that I advocate keeping *anyone* in ignorance.

I completely agree that sex education should deal with bodily changes, reproduction and pregnancy (and how to avoid it) - and I'd add diseases (avoidance, recognition, transmission) and also something about how different people make different moral decisions about sex. I think all kids need to know this - both gay and straight, and all kids regardless of sexuality need to know a bit about the mechanics. Given that around a third of the male population seem to experiment with same-sex sex at some point in their lives, I think it reasonable to include information on this as well (probably a slightly high proportion of gay men experiment with opposite-sex sex, and they should also have sensible information).

Exactly what is needed varies with the kids' ages, of course: sex ed should not be a one-off but a continuing process.

Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
So the partner says they're married.
Colin Murphy @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Marriage is a union between a man and woman as a basis for having children and raising a family.

Same sex couples cannot be 'married' unless you redefine 'marriage' just as men can only get 'pregnant' if you redefine 'pregnancy'.

I am sure you will continue to pretend to not understand - please feel free to do so, and I will let you know when I am tired of you game.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
tick / agree
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
No, I meant travel. People do become ill on holiday, or while abroad for work. They may be incapable of making decisions about their care - something that a spouse may have to undertake, for example.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Then that would be between them and their religion. At the moment we have the bizarre situation where even if the church in question is happy to perform a marriage for two people of the same sex, they cannot do so.
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Maybe but I can think of some relegions that Gays are members of who would not agree to Gay marriage what then for these Gay people.
Bob Roberts @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
see http://www.gaychristian101.com/Gay-Marriage.html for some discussion of the fact that gay unions were widely recognised and blessed until mediaeval times.

There are more academic sources as well, of course - google them for yourself if you really want to know. Or visit a really decent-quality reference library.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
So your devastating final argument is that marriage is akin to a swimming session?

So you're out not with a bang but a whimper TT
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
TT. Primary category error. Apples and Pears.

Only women can get pregnant. It's a biological condition. In no country in the world has there ever been a pregnant man

Same sex couples can get married. It's a social convention. In plenty of countries in the world there are married gay couples.

You're really clutching at last gasp straws here
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
You didn't mean travel then, you meant emigration. In which case, partake of the legislated partnership arrangement available to you in your new domicile - problem solved, assuming you're talking about asset transference, benefits etc.

Colin Murphy @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
You comment on sex education really takes the biscuit and highlights how ill considered your views are.

The main point of sex education is related to bodily changes, reproduction and pregnancy (and how to avoid it) - your suggestion that 'gay chidren' (what ever they are) should be kept ignorant about this is really too stupid for words.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
We don't live in Greece or Rome, we live in the United Kingdom. Rome and Greece had their Pagan religion, marriage exists in many other religions other than Christianity too. The sanctity of marriage as a heterosexual religious institution transcends all religions.

And marriage as a secular arrangement transcends many cultures, too (including much of Greece and Rome; it was primarily a legal and economic arrangement, not a religious one). Are you really saying that marriage should be restricted to the Christian definition, because we live in a theoretically Christian country, even though it is available as a secular and civil ceremony?

Accusing those that believe in the institution of marriage of taking part in an 'apartheid' is not going to win friends and influence people.

You are defending excluding people from an institution of the state because of their sexuality, because 'it's always been restricted to us'. How is that not an apartheid?
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
In case of illness or death, it's quite nice to have the relationship recognised by the local authorities, for example. We have no control over what other countries do - but Spain was until recently an example of somewhere that recognised marriages (including gay ones), but not CP/civil unions. As marriage between people of the same sex grows increasingly common internationally, this is likely to be a growing problem.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Marriage is of course much more than a legal definition, Morys, but we're explicitly talking about legislation here. No one can legislate for love, nor should they try to do so.

Of course no one should force homosexual marriage celebrations onto religious organisations. Except for the problem of the established church, most churches have the discretion to marry who they like according to their religious beliefs. No one's forcing a Mosque or a Synagogue to celebrate gay marriage. But the corollary also holds: no one should ban a gay wedding just because they don't like it
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
As someone with a strong religious perspective, I'm unlikely to dismiss anyone as a God-botherer. Full freedom to practise the religion that I am drawn to, which specifically has very strong feelings about equalities, might be nice.

I've been consistently clear that no legislation should force any church to perform marriages for any group that it does not feel are appropriate - be that gay men, lesbians, divorced people, or whatever. But equally no legislation should prevent any church from doing so if it feels called to.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
How is it important for those who travel abroad?
Colin Murphy @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
I don't think there's any suggestion that religious groups who don't want to perform gay marriages should be forced to do so - perish the thought! But religious people that belong to groups that do wish to perform such marriages should surely be allowed to do so.

As regards "legally equivalent", it took a long struggle to get Spain to recognise the UK second-class CP as an equivalent to the marriage allowed in Spain: an important point for those who travel abroad, perhaps.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Thomas,

We don't live in Greece or Rome, we live in the United Kingdom. Rome and Greece had their Pagan religion, marriage exists in many other religions other than Christianity too. The sanctity of marriage as a heterosexual religious institution transcends all religions.

There are no parallels in universal suffrage either.

Look up a history of marriage and you will start to see that as an institution it is steeped in the traditions of the Church and organised religion in this country since about 800AD.

As for accusations of apartheid, a shrill, reactionary piece of language like that only reduces the credibility of the case for gay marriage. Accusing those that believe in the institution of marriage of taking part in an 'apartheid' is not going to win friends and influence people.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Hold on. Marriage isn't essentially religious or spiritual by nature otherwise you wouldn't be able to get married in a registry office.

As a cultural institution, marriage has as many meanings as there are people on the planet. But we're not talking archaeology or symbolism here - we're talking about legislation.

Let's not go back to religiously framed laws. We fought that battle in the enlightenment. You say that marriage can only happen between a man and a woman. I see nothing but convention behind that, and absolutely no moral or spiritual reason why a man and man, or a woman and a woman, could not have a long term committed relationship which I would happily call a marriage. Been to a couple of Gay civil partnerships, and we call called it a marriage. Can you ban me for using that word?

Let's leave religion out of politics. Scholars have argued for centuries over the legal import of biblical scripture. Rhe same book of the Bible that says man lying with man is an abhomination, also says a woman who enters the temple during her menstrual cycle should be stoned to death.

I thought the need breed of Libertarian Conservatives opposed state intervention in private matters? Why should the state dictate who should get married if they're both consenting adults?
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
You can join a women only swim session just take the meds

Is that the same advice you'd give to gay couples who want to get married?
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
No, that's not extremist. My comment was directed more towards those who are so intent on pushing their own agenda that they totally disregard the viewpoints of others. They'd rather portray anyone who questions their aims as a homophobe or 'God-botherer' than engage in serious debate.

In response to you ATT -

I find it strange that you believe marriage is simply a legal definition "free from all the complexities of belief, personal faith, or romantic or sexual connotation." Surely most people would identify marriage with at least one, if not all three of these areas.

As a further question to you (and anyone else who cares to answer) - Would you go so far as to say that, should a 'Marriage Bill' be passed tomorrow, such a piece of legislation should force religious organisations to marry homosexual couples?

Morys Ireland @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
I am confused if legally there is no difference between a civil partnership and marriage then why do some in the Gay community want to be able to be married? If this is for religious purposes (personally I believe the cultural perspective is a moot point – for me there is now no difference) then I feel they will continue to be disappointed for even if some ‘religions’ agree to gay marriage others will not and those that are forced to conform will probably form ‘alternative groups’. They will always be in a situation of the dog chasing their own tail. Surely there must come a point when you except you are equal but not the same and give some credence to the heterosexual position on this.
Bob Roberts @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
tick / agree / recommend
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
The only people saying civil partnerships are second-rate are the very people that wanted them in the first place.

Because they're a step in the right direction. They're not perfect. It makes total sense that people who wanted civil partnerships also want marriage, just as people who wanted the vote extended to women over 30 also wanted it extended to women over 21. Allowing women over 30 the vote was a big step forward at the time and very welcome. But it was still inequality. The same applies to civil partnerships and marriage.

Before marriage as a legal construct, marriage still existed predominantly as a religious service over 1000 years before that and marriage is a lifelong commitment in the eyes of God between man and woman. It is a heterosexual institution.

It is not a purely religious ceremony, nor has it historically been so. Marriage in Greece and Rome predates Christianity. It's certainly not purely religious now. There are civil marriages. If some churches wish to restrict their religious blessings to heterosexual couples, so be it. But if marriage is available as a secular and legal institution - and it is - then it should be available to all. Its status in the 'eyes of God' is irrelevant.

It's not discrimination or apartheid, it just a different institution.

"It's just not an institution that two gay people can enter into" is pretty much the definition of apartheid.
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Guy. You are an annoying idiot.

You can join the Black Police Officers Association even if you are white.

You can go to Mecca just convert to Islam.

You could have gone on an 18-30 and can go on a SAGA holiday.

You can join a women only swim session just take the meds
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Never mind, I'm sure that you are welcome to set up an exclusive institution for bigots and homophobes ... oh, wait, that's the BNP, and even their membership rules are being challenged as potentially illegal.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
The only people saying civil partnerships are second-rate are the very people that wanted them in the first place.

Civil partnerships afford all the legal privileges of marriage.

To argue that it should be called marriage is then to bring along the religious and spiritual aspects of a oath in the eyes of God.

I am married and I did it in a Church because that is important to myself and my wife; swear to God that no matter what, this is for life.

Before marriage as a legal construct, marriage still existed predominantly as a religious service over 1000 years before that and marriage is a lifelong commitment in the eyes of God between man and woman. It is a heterosexual institution.

The fact that a marriage contract (according the 1753 Act) is also as legally binding is a civil partnership is moot.

Now unless homosexuals want to go hetero, marriage is not an institution that two gay people can enter into. It's not discrimination or apartheid, it just a different institution.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Here we go again.
Undermining the institution of marriage out of spite
References, please?

Forcing through gay male blood donation in the face of medical advice
You can find "medical advice" to support almost any position you choose - including compulsory ECT and/or castration for homosexual men. The question is, what is the appropriate balance of *informed* medical advice? International opinion is divided ... but international experience is not: I'm not aware of any country that after allowing donations based on risk not sexuality has decided to revert back to a discriminatory position.

IVF treatment for Lesbians paid by the state
Opinions on this vary among both gay and straight people, as does opinion on IVF for older women.

Reducing the age of consent to 14 and allowing a 14 year old to sleep with an 11 year old
Again, opinions vary. Personally (having first had gay sex at the age of 14, in the context of a steady relationship that had already lasted over a year) I think decriminalising consensual sex between younger adolescents within two or three years in age of each other is preferable to putting them on the Sex Offenders Register.

Forcing gay sex-ed on schoolchildren
No worse than forcing straight sex-ed on gay schoolchildren: in fact, probably less likely to send the message that their sexuality is "dirty" or "forbidden".

Insisting same sex couple adoption is the moral and practical equivalent of heterosexual couple adoption
I've yet to see any real evidence that it isn't. Though I and others have asked you to supply reputable independent references.

Finally, I would emphasise that it isn't just LGBT people who are affected. It is the parents, families, friends as well.

This will not, of course, affect Guy M.'s bigoted views. But for everyone else, it's worth a read.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
(repost from another thread)...

I am very offended that as a man I am not allowed to be pregnant - why is pregnancy restricted to women?

So what I propose is that the definition of 'pregnancy' be extended to include men who currently have a pregnant partner!

There every one is happy now - we can all be pregnant and equal.

Just need a new word for women who have babies growing inside them, and then change every reference ever made to the word which would no longer make sense... Yes not extreme at all.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
As a heterosexual you are saying that I can't have an insitution only for myself and other heterosexuals?

I have no issue with institutions on for homosexuals, only for religious groups or only for women, or men, or young people or old people. I have no issue with institutions for racial groups such as the Black Police Officers Association.

In other words so long as everyoneis equal under the law i.e. in terms of freedom from discrimination, violence and abuse I have absolutely no issue with any institution specific to a group or groupings.

I would not expect to be allowed to go to Mecca

I would not expect to be able to attend a women only swim session

I would not expect to be allowed to go on either an 18-30 or SAGA holiday.

I would not expect to be allowed to join the Black Police Officers Association

Homosexuals insistant on getting "married" rather than having a CP do so out of insecurity and spite towards heterosexuals. They would not allow heterosexuals to have any exclusive institutions or ceremonies and it goes to the heart of what a nasty unpleasant and vocal minority the gay taleban has become in society.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
At last a balanced and reasoned argument on the subject from a thread writer on LL.

I would expect though post after post after post now from the gay taliban seeking to claim that only the dead hand of absolute rigid sameness in every aspect and institution of gay and heterosexual life will result in their personal freedom.

What the op says is common sense, the term "marriage" carries with it centuries of tradition and a well built up idealistic view of what the institution carries with it.

To those of us not rabidly anti history and tradition this is a good thing. To Tatchell and his gay rights fundamentalist followers tradition and history needs to be swept aside.

Letting gays get married will not make them more "free" or "equal". It will not remove some real or perceived stigma or injustice. All it will do is change the nature of marriage both from a religious, cultural and historic perspective.

As a test of gay rights activists real intentions, I wonder if they would support a heterosexual institution of any type? My guess is that they would not, they are rabidly determined to drop the dead hand on conformity on eveyone whether, we like it or not out, of their own deep rooted insecurities

I personally as heterosexual have absolutely no issue with a gay institution of partnership, whatever it is called. I would not feel unequal if I could not partake in it, I would not feel belittled, of lesser worth or victimised. I though am not an insecure member of the gay taliban who reguarly posts on LL though.

Take a look at some of the gay rights policies and views from LL over the last weekend:

Undermining the institution of marriage out of spite
Forcing through gay male blood donation in the face of medical advice
IVF treatment for Lesbians paid by the state
Reducing the age of consent to 14 and allowing a 14 year old to sleep with an 11 year old
Forcing gay sex-ed on schoolchildren
Insisting same sex couple adoption is the moral and practical equivalent of heterosexual couple adoption

Please Labour adopt these policies and campaign on them in the next general elections.

Run polls on these issues amongst the general public. They aren't wanted and aren't supported.

Gay couples have CPs, as the OP states these are perfectly fair and adequate, received a cross party concensus and in practice have no legal difference from marriage. Only the whineing, chip on the sholder gay taliban are still not satisfied.

If heterosexual couples want a historic institution that is for them and them alone, leave them be and stop trying to undermine things out of spite. Use your energies instead to produce a gay institution you can be happy with. Of course you won't do that because the vindictive desire in all this wouldn't be satisfied.
Guy M @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
I don't consider myself extremist at all, but it does strike me as extremely wrong in this day and age that we discriminate, by law, against people because of their sexuality.

Civil Partnerships were a huge step forward a few years back (I know some of the Stonewall people who worked on the legislation) but the long term view of this has to be: how long are we going to tolerate inequality before the law.

I understand your reservations about the sanctity of the word 'marriage', but actually it's a legal rather than emotional or religious definition, and should therefore be free from all the complexities of belief, personal faith, or romantic or sexual connotation. We should all be able to come up with our own definitions of what marriage means to us personally. But the state should have no role in limiting those definitions legally.

Is that extremist?
anti tory troll @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
"Presumably if churches accepted gay marriage, they could still carry them out, but the legal act would be signing a civil partnership register"

No - there is a specific prohibition on carrying out a civil partnership in a place used for worship.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Civil ceremonies for heterosexual couples cannot be carried out in churches, not can they refer to God.

Civil marriages cannot be carried out in churches - that's what makes them civil marriages. But heterosexual couples can choose to have a religious ceremony instead. Homosexual couples, even if their church consents, cannot. There is no legal capacity for religious civil partnerships.
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Hi Nick, I'm confused here. Civil ceremonies for heterosexual couples cannot be carried out in churches, not can they refer to God. That's the point. So neither should civil CP ceremonies be allowed in churches or to refer to God?

Presumably if churches accepted gay marriage, they could still carry them out, but the legal act would be signing a civil partnership register rather than a marriage register which is a semantic, rather than legal difference?
Jessica Asato @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Nick, you are abolutely right here. The a numerous LGBT people who remain very spiritual, and even more who want a religious wedding sealed by vows before God. Current law specifically prohibits that.

Of course this a massive improvement over the old system (which was nothing) but it is not equality.

There are lost of churches/denominations/willing to celebrate same- sex weddings, but current law forbids them.

The wolrd has moved on since 2004. All of Canada, 6 Amercian states, Holland, Belgium, and even Spain allow simple same sex marriages,

So should we.
Paul Halsall @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Excellent article, I hope some of the more extremist commentators on here take note.
Morys Ireland @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Thanks, but I suspect it's not you that's a source of concern, but these dialogues are all about improving understanding.
Colin Murphy @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
"... specificity will calm the concerned. "

Fair point: I'll try to bear it in mind.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
It's that imprecision of language, however, that does make some Christians fearful that demands are being made to change their own frame of reference. If it's the case that you want, say the Unitarians to be allowed to conduct such services, then specificity will calm the concerned.
Colin Murphy @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
"When you say Churches, do you mean specific denominations or individual buildings?"

Well, I wasn't intending to restrict it to necessarily Christian groups, let alone those who have got themselves stuck with Bishops. I rather meant it as as a body of people who function as a religious group capable of reaching such decisions - I guess that probably means "sect or denomination" in most cases.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Many feminists see marriage as an institution still tainted with the lingering suspicion of male oppression, and wonder why gay campaigners want to have anything to do with it.

So does Peter Tatchell. But - and all credit to him for this - he recognizes that even if he doesn't think marriage is a particularly good idea, those that want to get married should be able to, regardless of their sexual orientation.

I agree that it would have been harder to get marriage through than it was to get civil partnerships through, and don't blame the government for going for it. Indeed, at the time even civil partnerships put us ahead of much of the western world, and civil partnerships are a great achievement. But that doesn't mean that the situation is perfect, or that we should stop making an effort. Since we introduced civil partnerships, they've become common across Europe, and many countries (and some states of the US) also offer same-sex marriage. The world situation has changed, and with time I'm sure ours will too.
Thomas Williams @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
When you say Churches, do you mean specific denominations or individual buildings?

If the former, then yes, they should be able to define their own terms of reference as a theistic home for homosexuals. If the latter, then you have no business interfering with the machinations of the bishopric.
Colin Murphy @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
"No such hang-ups exist with the idea of partnership. Indeed many gay people actively prefer the term as being free from all the religious and cultural associations that go hand in hand with traditional matrimony."


If that were really the case, it would have been inexcusable for CPs to be denied to heterosexual couples who wished to be "free from all the religious and cultural associations that go hand in hand with traditional matrimony".

Conversely, for many gay people who belong to Churches that positively wish to marry them and are actively forbidden to do so (and even prohibited from using the place of worship to conduct a civil CP ceremony), the current situation deliberately excludes them from "the religious and cultural associations" which they feel are appropriate to the relationship they wish to affirm.

CP's - as a gay alternative to marriage, instead of a civil alternative for people of all sexualities, with churches that wish to do so being permitted to carry our religious marriages for people of all sexualities - are a minimal and rather grudging gesture.
Nick Weeks @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago
Finally, a somewhat more reasoned and balanced article on this somewhat pernicious subject rather than the more predictable reactionary clap-trap from the intellectually unhinged.

Congratulations.
Mike Thomas @ 30 weeks and 6 days ago