Snapping back

What is clear is that our democracy, our constitution, are too important to be tinkered with. They are too important to be altered in a hurry. What we need is an independent commission and a commitment that the results of the commission will be put to a free vote in Parliament.

Cameron's suggestions are merely designed to produce a built-in Tory majority in the Commons. His plans on local democracy are just tinkering because he will not allow local authorities free rein to determine their own local taxes (nor be allowed to build the social housing we disparately need). Further, his proposals for the NHS will involve more centralisation (and without a doubt privatisation imposed from above).

Clegg's been consistently LibDem, they have always had alternative ideas for the constitution, and although it does not mean that they are right, it does show that they are not not jumping on the bandwaggon.

So Morley has been allowed to stand down

No words from Brown, no calls for a by-election

What does it take to upset him? Made to look a fool by Sarkozy, even

There is an historical precedent for throwing people out of the house, and calling a by election...see todays Liebourgraph

At least if Brown does it to Morley, he'll stand a chance of doing it to Blears, to Hoon, To Purnell, To Darling, to Moran, ...

Call an election, and stop dithering

brown is a total embarrassment - real proof that hes broken his moral compass. As i said elsewhere both morely and moran have pleaded ill health. It is therefore wrong of us to expect the ill and infirm to soldier on and risk making them even frailer.

I hadn't really noticed GB's absence from the debate, but since you have pointed it out, I realise that you're right. There is a deafening silence where there should be strong leadership; and there are kid gloves where there should be a grasping of the nettle.

GB's near-silence on this issue seems strange. It is surely a rare opportunity to make both the right and the popular move; an easy, rather than hard, choice.

Labour's promises of constitutional reform in 1997 and 2001 excited me; the reality disappointed.

Whilst I would be cheering in the streets to see wholesale constitutional reform (two elected houses, a directly elected executive body, a written constitution, the removal of the monarchy from government), I am not so idealistic as to insist that this be done in one sudden move.

Ultimately, half measures are in realpolitik, better than no measures.

I am desperate for Labour to grab the nettle here; it's closer to our ideological and moral heartland than it is to the Tories', so why are they making such headway on this?

Changes to constiuencies and voting methods are open to accusations of gerrymandering. That is certainly how I sumarised Cameron's fewer constituency proposal on LL yesterday. Am sure that a Tory might argue the same of PR or AV+, which could work to their disadvantage. Yes, it looks iffy to be reforming the electoral process in the run up to what may be an election defeat, but Alex is right that on this at least GB would have both the political and popular mandate.

That's a pretty damning view of the British media. It doesn't suprise me that the moralising Telegraph (which painted lurid pictures of MPs while earlier dishing out the same financial advice those same MPs followed) is telling lies and don't care who they hurt or endanger just to score a sale. Is truth and peoples lives that cheap?

think it is ok to have a 20% excess somewhere in order to have a 80% gain elsewhere.


would you agree?

Wait 'til he sees the Mail :)

Oh, dear God. Does anyone who isn't a deadwood middle manager or buy to let wannbe still read the Mail?

People used to say the American papers were a bit anal and the Americans were just stupid colonials. Look who's laughing now.

I hate to think how bad it would get in Gurning Britain under thickie Cameron. I'd rather eat a bag of Monster Munch than read that.

you could always buy the intellectual sun and read about *britains got talent* instead. Britain may have *talent* -its just a pity itv hasnt managed to find any!

Monster Munch are ace, except they've shrunk the packets, same with Wagon Wheels, they used to be HUGE (or I used to be small, one or the other).

Like it or not, The Mail is popular and sets the agenda in this country, it'd be a brave politician indeed who told them where to go.

Cameron has already coined 'The Daily Mail Test', so another 4 years of prejudice at least.

Yeah, I noticed that size thing. I'll be damned if I can find condoms smaller than extra large.

Is that "Daily Mail Test" something you need to pass to get a seat on the short bus?

it is reported thia morning that tony mcnulty has generously agreed tp pay back 3,000 he chisselled out of us by citing his parents home as his place of abode..

I sincerely hope this ghastly little man isn,t allowed to buy himself out of trouble so easily or cheaply, and thatt the metropolitan police continue their investigation into his affairs

Gordon Brown has no mandate with the electorate.

He doesn't even have a mandate within the Labour Party.

Brown is silent and definitely playing McCavity's cat regarding his frontbench who have committed worse expenses acts than Margaret Moran. If she is standing down then Hoon, Blears, Purnell, McNulty, Copper and Balls are all more than culpable and must face the same due process.

Without action on their misdemeanour, there is no mandate and there is no moral authority at all to reform expenses. Regarding Labour's woeful fudge of the House of Lords there is no mandate nor track record to reform the upper house either.

As a member of the public, you only skirt the issue. Let me tell you what it's really like.

I work very hard just like many others, I save some of my money like many others, I don't like debt like many others. I'm trying to do things right, I live to a moral code the best that I can; my daughter lives in a loving stable home and I want her to take the chance I got and thrive. I'm good to my neighbours and I'm a responsible member of society. I am just like millions of other people who try to do the right thing everyday.

This government rather than helps us or rather just leaves us alone because I can fend for myself - it feels more and more like my enemy.

I face a fine if some clipboard toting jobsworth deems my bin as either in the wrong place outside my home or the lid is a couple of inches open. If I accidentally put the wrong thing in my recycling - I could get a fine. The government has 143 different agencies that could put me under surveillance for the weakest of reasons. If I stray 1mph over the speed limit, it is guilty until proven innocent yet an uninsured driver could smash into my car, endanger my life and my family and they get away scot-free.

I am careful with my money knowing that there is no-one else that's going to bail me out. I watch my council tax, my income tax, the cost of living inexorably rise yet I see waste and misspending in government; I see people incompetent in their jobs paid massive public salaries and they are not booted out and replaced.

I see MPs, not all of them, just some, even some on this government's frontbench just give me excuses why they are entitled to millions of pounds of our money. They don't do what we would do - the decent thing. They cling to their job when we, the public, would be sacked, prosecuted and ultimately financially ruined by such dishonesty.

We see other good people on the news, husbands beaten to death for being a good neighbour and a committed member of society. Children stabbed and shot over trivial postcode rivalries. We see this government too incapable of deporting foreign rapists and murderers and they release them into our society to murder and rape again. We see convicted terrorists unable to be deported for their human rights, not ours and our lives they endanger.

We see a police force made impotent by paperwork and conflicting initiatives. We see our law enforcement politicised against those serving in the public interest.

We see our brave, our finest, send into battle with poor kit and under equipped whilst their masters spend billions on their offices. We see good servants to our country given, at first, the cold shoulder. There is no honour in this government, there is no humility to pay debts served only subservience to opinion polls and self-preservation.

We see injustice from a government with no morality that doesn't govern for all, but a tribal petty-minded government that rules by divide and conquer. That speaks of compassion but only makes everything that much harder, that much more expensive and we see precious little in return.

The sink estates haven't improved, the poor aren't a little better off, their opportunities aren't that little bit better. This government for all its fine platitudes and language have made poverty worse and aspiration just that bit harder.

Now, rather than focus on this country in a dire time of need, there are voices calling for introspection, to ignore the daily concerns of everyday people but fix something caused by their own dishonesty and greed.

Why? For their own self-preservation. Want to fix Parliament? First, let the public decide who fixes it.

It is our Parliament, not yours and not the Labour Party's; it belongs to the 60 million people of this country.

So in the name of God, go now. That is what the majority of this country want. Go.

Leave it to us to start this process of reform because one thing is for certain; Labour has absolutely no credentials and no moral code left to guide it.

On a second point

The today programme this, morning carried the byeline that over 50 Labour MP's have approached Drowning Street about being elevated to the Lords after the election

My own personal feelings are that all those from this parliament should be disallowed from taking any further part in our political system

For them the gravy train is over, and must be seen to be over

"all those from this parliament should be disallowed from taking any further part in our political system"

Even the ones who did nothing wrong? Nah, on second thoughts, that would require some actual rational thought rather than knee-jerk anti-politician emotionalism. Screw 'em all!

Brown may well have a nominal house majority, but he does not have the moral mandate because he is surrounded by the thieves, flippers, tax dodgers and pocket stuffers that the Telegraph has exposed

From the Two homes Secretary, to Jack Straw claiming twice as much Council tax as he paid, from Elliot Morley to Gordon's cleaning bill, from the dubious nature of the missing Bliar expenses (which makes him look guilty) and his mortgage extension to provide a deposit for his London home all guaranteed by the tax payer

...and the only one that has gone is Moran who fell on her sword after failing to attend Gordon's star chamber

No leadership in his own party and no leadership in the country

Heap on the debacle of the Queen and the D-Day commemorations, and Brown rightly stands accused of playing baseless politics whilst real issues passes him by. Now the country is the laughing stock because we have no head of state going to France, and Brown is only going to meet St Obama

Go Brown, please, and call a general election

Perhaps, the French are quietly supporting Gordon Brown in his efforts to reform the constitution? I'll take their not inviting HRH as as an endorsement.

Back in the old days it was "constitutional" to remove the monarch by force. Forcible removable like dueling has gone out of fashion but while dueling has been replaced by legal aid where is challenging the monarch? It's been quietly legislated away and no counterbalance has been put in its place.

If anyone is playing baseless politics and a laughing stock it's Tory boys who just roll up to rip people down and have nothing better to offer in its place. Where's the policies and sense of fairplay? You have nothing and squeal like girls if you're challenged. How stupid and weak is that?

speaking for myself, i get angrier with each day that passes. Brown has done virtually nothing about his shambling shower. That is bad enough with greedy and stupid backbenchers, but when you have ministers like blears still grinning and pompous twits like mcnulty still being supercilious, you lose any faith in brown,s ability, or even decency. Some of these guttersnipes have actually committed fraud. Others are morally bankrupt. So much for brown,s *moral compass*, that he condones dishonesty for political expediency.

You are right there will have to be change, but i doubt gordon brown is the man to instigate it. I suspect that within weeks he will be gone, and this time next year, so will the labour government.

If labour does not discipline creeps like follett, purnell et al, i hope the electorate does the job for them, and vote them out.

I rest my case.

You're using some pretty lurid and insulting words in there, Alan. To be honest, it just makes your comment look incoherent and like the rest of the pro-Tory identikit spin. Personally, I'm very disappointed at how poor some glass jawed business leaders are, and how nasty some of the poverty creating attitudes in the Tory party are. How about some balance in the ranting?

Testing, testing. *bok* *bok* Is this mike on?

Perhaps, Labour didn't do enough but when you've got such a closed minded shower of guttersnipes like the Tories opposing you at every step because their moral compass is broken waddya do? In spite of the economic crisis and public demands the Tories still haven't changed and are soft-peddling Turbo-Thatcherism. I'd like those pompous and grinning twits to be busted for fraud they are.

Showtime. ;-)

I cant believe we have an editorial from Alex that has a hint of relevance and unbiased thinking - Alex are you feeling alright?

If there are any reforms they'll be what pointy heads & wannabe pols want rather than what people or democracy need to be truly representative! Way too many people simply feel shut out of the political process - only input wanted from the "masses" is an x in box, which usually has no impact. If we had single transferable vote system it might get more out to the polling booth, but would it reduce the power of wealth or corporations in politics? If policy was more responsive to electorate, or went "back" to constituency members (if it ever really was there) rather than hugely expensive think tanks & consultants, would more people want to engage with or join their party of choice? Who can we vote for if they're all so far from us in their corporatised mind-set?

That is why some of us are calling for a constitutional convention that goes well beyond the politicians and has a remit to consult us, the electorate

Labour's past and the legacy of Thatcherism was always going to be a tough hill to climb but today is about getting over failed ideologies and consumerism and building a new future based on opportunity and fairness. This is a universal vision and not something any of the leaders or their supporters own but neither is it something that a hysterical media or fearful public own. It merely is. You can't make it, you can't destroy it, and you can't give it away. You can only accept it.

Gordon fumbles, Cameron brags, and Clegg talks big but we all know they're flowed players, just as the media has got caught up in its own heroin dreams and the public want change but don't want to pay the price. Broken competition, wage differentials spiralling out of control, and a financial crisis smack of ego. The arrogance of expertise, the manufactured emotionalism of advertising, and basic ingratitude scream in our faces but ego doesn't want to hear.

It may just be my view but I've believed for some time that major constitutional reform, a better focus on achievement, and more fairness will help Britain develop the focus, sense of self-confidence, and social harmony that it needs. We are at a tipping point, and the arrogance and fear of procrastination can hold us back in the short term but the bold stroke, consensus, and taking the pain as Britain rides through the storm can get us all to a new place, a changed place, a better place.

Novice: Master, how do I attain enlightenment?

Master: Have you finished eating your rice?

Novice: Yes.

Master: Then wash your bowl.

Simple, huh? Life is about goals, processes, and outcomes. People often have very good goals that we share with others, but circumstances and our own ungenerous points of view can often get in the way. We look at the goals and point at the outcomes, and preconceptions and reactivity start troubling and upseting us. So, off we go arguing and pointing fingers. Meanwhile, we take our minds off process and we are part of that process. That's why Zen focuses on self-enlightenment.

If Labour is very poor to express itself positive the Tories are very slow to be kind, and the Liberals always bottle it when it comes to the hard work. Each of these collective groups has a mind lock on its own supporters as bad as any failing company, terrorist cell, or death cult. Not one of them teaches leadership, kindness, or the long term. If it can't be kicked or counted it doesn't exist as far as they're concerned but perspective, or how we see things, is more important than either.

"We have two eyes to see two sides of things, but there must be a third eye which will see everything at the same time and yet not see anything. That is to understand Zen." - D. T. Suzuki

The best way for Gordon to "wield the sword of meaningful change" would be for him to fall on it.

The ensuing General Election would clear the air and restore a modicum of legitimacy and respect to Parliament - something that no amount of tinkering and piece-meal reforming with the current tainted lot will ever achieve.

"All of a sudden, politics has swept into the national consciousness and connections are being drawn between the actions and inactions of Parliament and the experience of our everyday lives"

If only that were true. In fact no-one is drawing any connections between the expenses "scandal" (in a teacup) and actual issues facing the country. Rather, people are annoyed at politicians. Not because of their policies, but just because they seem a bit greedy and a bit arrogant. That's the exact opposite of what politics should be and the more energy is wasted on constitutional and parliamentary reform, the worse it is for the country.

I would much rather parliament spent the next few weeks debating the reform of my local public toilets than reform of Westminster. Because I don't plan on ever going to Westminster, but I do have to use the loo. That's more of an issue in my everyday life than what some Tory twat that I've never heard of likes to do with his ducks.

In ten years we will look back on this and think "What were they thinking?", like we now look back with embarrasment on the outpouring of nonsense following the death of Di.

A proper constitution could help give a better focus, and erase a lot of stupid law and buck passing. There's a deeper cultural change which some of the experts have since agreed with that needs to take place but that's part and parcel of the deal. Form, desire, and outcomes are related so, yes, this is important.

Britain has been squeezed between the juggernauts of old Labour and an unreformed Tory party. This has helped drive arrogant big business and the consumer bubble. This has filled people minds with more junk and made them more gullible and hysterical: putty for the CBI and mass media Britain is more dumb and hysterical than it used to be (and both crime trends and surveys suggest that). It's all popping now but whether people get over that or suck on the teat of yesterday remains to be seen.

The over-complexity, greed, clutter, and general backwash of life in Britain can be seen mirrored in the recession and globalisation. To many laws allow bullish would-be leaders and corporations to dominate the playing field, and over-feminisation of the media and point and click tax havens allow capital to flow unchecked. It's all rather unhealthy but more simplicity, calm, and patience can help counter this.

If Britain slips back today will look like a golden age as we live in a Cameronesque basket case country while the rest of the world has embraced change. We know the guy is a thickie ass-kisser, and no amount of tough guy talk or patting chums on the head will cure the fact he's an over-promoted postroom boy. But if that's what people want that's what they'll get. If people want success for themselves and Britain they'll vote for anything but Cameron and, yes, they may look back in time and laugh.