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MPs' expenses and the great national sneer

Parliament in shadowsBy Brian Barder

The Daily Telegraph has undeniably pulled off a great coup in getting hold of the details of MPs’ expenses claims and publishing them. It’s doing it in dribs and drabs, starting yesterday, thus pre-empting the official plan to publish them all together in July, after the elections in June to the European parliament and the county councils.

“MPs’ expenses: ‘lack of moral leadership’ revealed by politicians“, shouts the Telegraph’s front page headline, leading into predictably grubby revelations about the claims made by a number of Labour ministers. By selecting this group for the first day’s revelations, the Torygraph ensures that the widest media coverage will concentrate on dubious expenses claims made exclusively by Labour front-benchers: revelations about past claims by Tory and LibDem front- and back-benchers are being reserved for later, when public interest and outrage have begun to die down through inevitable indignation fatigue. In this way the newspaper will hope to inflict maximum damage on Labour’s performance in the June elections, although all the signs are that this will anyway be so dire that the Telegraph’s latest campaign can hardly make it any worse.

Of course there can be no excuse for some of the self-serving, rule-bending claims that the Telegraph’s first set of revelations laid bare yesterday. A shamefully large number of MPs of all parties, on front and back benches, have apparently behaved carelessly at one end of the spectrum, and probably semi-corruptly at the other, with all kinds of petty fiddling in between, most if not all of it technically within the letter of the rules (which MPs themselves have of course approved), but in some cases miles outside their spirit.

Moreover, whatever its underlying political motives, the Telegraph can’t be blamed for having procured (stolen?) and published the information, either: it’s self-evidently in the public interest that these matters should be available to us so that we can revisit our opinions of those caught with at least a couple of greedy fingers in the till. And because the Telegraph has got the addresses to which the claims and payments relate (information that was not intended for publication), it can uncover the sly dodges that some MPs have been up to more effectively than it could have done without them.

And yet, and yet.

The whole scandal, especially after the detailed but partial revelations published yesterday, has unleashed a predictable fire-storm of outrage and demonisation, not just of those newly identified as having fiddled or finessed their expenses, but of politicians as a class, especially but not exclusively focusing on Labour politicians (because it’s somehow deemed even more despicable to behave like this if you’re in government), and therefore of politics as a whole.

The blogosphere is humming with contempt for the whole breed. So are the tabloids, and many of the broadsheets. Phone-in programmes on radio and television are receiving buckets of bile to pour over politicians’ heads. The illustrious Guido Fawkes, über-blogger and publisher of the smears of prominent Tories and their wives, goes to town with talk of villains, shame and charades; the Guido fan club, faithfully following his cue, falls into line with a raft of ‘comments’ — 191 at the last count. It’s calculated to bring our whole political system into disrepute, just at the very time when we need to support our political leaders, most of them decent and honest men and women trying to make the world a better place, in their efforts to salvage something from the current financial and economic disaster. My own contribution by way of a comment on Guido’s blog post, posted under my own name, was:

"The worst thing about these revelations of petty venality on the part of some of our politicians is that they reinforce the general disillusionment with our politics and our politicians, just at the time when we desperately need widespread public support for action by governments everywhere (and governments are staffed by politicians) to get us through a massive global financial and economic crisis caused by a handful of much greedier private sector financiers, not at all by politicians.  Bloggers, and the parasites who merely comment on blogs (mostly skulking behind pseudonyms), might pause before they join in the sneering clamour of contempt and hatred of our politicians, to consider whether a few injudicious claims for bath plugs and new boilers for second homes are really so much more wicked than the money-grubbing greed and deliberate obfuscations of what the bankers and hedge fund managers and co. were doing with other people’s money to make millions for themselves while bringing down the whole financial system on which millions all over the world depended. Let’s keep this thing in perspective, OK?"

Being an MP is a gruelling and demanding job: the mountain of dreary but inescapable constituency work requires you to be a social worker and legal adviser without any training or preparation for either role; working hours in the house of commons - although reformed - are still unsocial; the vast majority of the proceedings in the House and its committees are unspeakably tedious; the long separations from family and friends famously tend to lead to marital break-up, alcoholism and worse; the lack of real power over an over-mighty executive saps energy and will; dependence on the favour of the Whips for any chance of advancement to ministerial office is degrading; those who achieve it are generally unfitted for it, since ministerial success requires quite different talents from those needed to win a constituency election; many of your fellow-MPs will always be uncongenial company; you have little or no job security and your ability to hold onto your seat every three or four years depends on circumstances quite beyond your control; you are fairly poorly paid and if you make up for this by claiming all the allowances that parliamentary officials tell you you’re entitled to, you’re likely to be lampooned across the nation’s front pages and television screens as little better than a bank robber or hedge fund manager.

No wonder the intellectual and charismatic cream of the population would rather be water-boarded than submit to the rigours and penalties of such a career.

But these are the people on whom we depend for rescue from the depredations of free market capitalism. Like the coal miners of the past, they do a job that few of us would be willing to do, but one that for all our sakes has to be done by someone. It behoves us to treat them more fairly and even — some of them, anyway — with just a hint of respect.

Posted on May 09, 2009 at 02:52pm


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Speakers in Trouble

Douglas Carswell's posted a confidence motion against Blairs champagne socialist speaker. Michael Martin will not need a new job though, his pension is to die for.

For those of you who haven't heard the news, some choice extracts from BBC news:

Labour MP Kate Hoey said, as the newspaper had chosen to black out details like addresses, asking the police to investigate was "an awful waste" of police resources and suggested MPs had something to hide. - But an annoyed Mr Martin said he had already heard her "pearls of wisdom on Sky News".

He also told off Lib Dem Norman Baker - who has long campaigned for greater transparency on MPs' expenses - as "another member who is keen to say to the press what the press wants to hear".

From the Telegraph Blog:

Speaker Michael Martin (to another MP): "I have been a trade unionist all my life. I did not come into politics not to take what is owed to me."

Kate Hoey on R4 said 'Let me put it this way - I wish we still had Betty Boothroyd'
bbJ - Posting like Mr Kipling... exceedingly good stuff. @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
george thomas, bernard wheatheral, betty boothroid then micheal martin!

what went wrong ?
david cheeseman @ 69 weeks ago
Speaker Michael Martin (to another MP): "I have been a trade unionist all my life. I did not come into politics not to take what is owed to me."

Lovely line that one.

If he is owed something, I wonder who he thinks it is owed by?

Being a socialist he probably thinks that 'society' owes him something... but you know what?

You were there before me weren't you?

"There is no such thing as society, there are individuals and families..."

For socialists (like martin) 'society' is a way of saying 'taxpayer' without acknowledging that they are leeching off others hard work.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 69 weeks ago
Martin has played this appallingly, getting rid of him would be a start, he needs sacking before he has the chance to do the decent thing, not that that seems likely.
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
Why was this party hack ever put in in the first place?
Ummm.
Let me guess.....
Mike Stallard @ 69 weeks ago
From Today's London Evening Standard:


"Despite furiously complaining that their hard work requires them to have second homes, most were curiously missing from the chamber.

The Evening Standard counted 41 MPs present for Work and Pensions Questions, the first event after the sitting began at 2.30pm.

That was not unusually low for a Monday afternoon, because many MPs drift back slowly from their weekend's spent at homes in the country or their constituencies.

But it was a topic that would be expected to draw a big crowd of Labour MPs, given their interest in the welfare system and social reform. James Purnell was answering questions, flanked by ministers Tony McNulty and Kitty Ussher who were both embroiled in claims about their expenses."

I don't know how these three scroungers had the cheek to show their faces either!
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
"Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling received thousands of pounds to renovate a London flat 17 miles from his family home.

Mr Grayling, who already apparently owned three properties within the M25, bought the flat with loans subsidised by the taxpayer.

He is alleged to have delayed putting in claims so he could received the maximum in Additional Costs Allowance (ACA) over consecutive years."


Until a couple of months ago Grayling was shadow Work & Pensions secretary, and he was engaged in an unsavoury Dutch auction with Purnell as to who was "tougher" on welfare claimants. The word "scrounger" often enamated from Graylins lips

WHAT A HYPOCRITE!
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm right with you on this, Alan. The glass jawed heroes of politics have completely the wrong idea. Trying to look macho and treat people like dirt got Vodfone's ass kicked in Japan. Could've told either bunch where they were going wrong before they did it but, hey, they're the bigshot frontbenchers and CEO's. Who are we to comment?

Gordon Brown needs a savvy campaign manager who can call the shots just as much as George Broussard needed a good project manager who could stand up to him. Effective policy and presentation is great but you also have to be timely. Fix that and the cookie cutter opposition parties and their media fanboi's would be left in the dirt.

The market knows what it wants and Laour is best placed among all the parties to ship that. There's been some very good articles on Labour List and some good sentiments AG has expressed that nail it as much as anything does. Heck, Charlie Brooker (a former games journalist) gets it. It's not hard.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
Can we at least hear a justification from you Brian, as to why you consider an MP to be "fairly poorly paid"? there are enough people who have been outraged by such a crass remark, as to warrant a response to defend your statement. Please have the guts to do so. 99 comments and none in favour, how to misjudge your readership or what?!
anita steffenberg @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
Certainly. I have spelled out my reasons in the paragraph of my post beginning "Being an MP...". Please also see the interesting comment on my own blog at http://www.barder.com/ephems/1705#comment-84932 and my response appended to it. The great majority of MPs don't deserve the contempt and vilification heaped on them even before the MPs' expenses row blew up, and now hugely intensified by it: and judgement of a fair level of salary for MPs shouldn't be distorted by the kind of rancour directed indiscriminately at all politicians by far too many people in recent days. What we pay is what we get, unfortunately. If we want better, we'll have to pay for it.
Brian Barder @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
Having looked at your website, it now all makes perfect sense. Meditraenean cruises, weekends in Paris and a leafy home (no doubt a second home!!) in Wandsworth. Yes, I now see why you consider 64k a year to be inadequate!
anita steffenberg @ 69 weeks ago
PS. Can yoiu give me an example where increased pay has resulted in a better calibre of employee? Fred Goodwin was paid loads and look what a mess he left. It is a moral justification of selfishnees to suggest that more pay=better performer.
anita steffenberg @ 69 weeks ago
Thank you for your reply. However, throughout human history there has been no link between a "gruelling and demanding job" and pay. On that basis, a nurse should be paid more than a doctor, as a nurses job now involves longer hours and more physical exertion than that of a doctor. There is no logic to your arguement and I believ you miss the crucial point, that being a politician should not be done for remuneration but for the higher ideal of wishing to serve the public. I think you miss this point.
anita steffenberg @ 69 weeks ago
But BRian a very great number of them do deserve contempt - and so far we have only heard the (comparitively speaking) "big names". Wait till we see what Tory-shire and New Labour-town nondescripts get up to.

And, with all due respect, if you don't think £64,000 for a bog standard backbencher and a minister earning between £98,000-£142,000, is good pay, you must live in a very strange world, alien to most of us. Perhaps if you lived in a mansion in Sunnningdale with a chauffeur driven Bentley, you might consider they subsist on poverty wages, but most of us live in rather less rarified circumstances.

The more you try to justify or excuse it, the more otiose your article looks.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
Ok, so you are saying that our current batch of MPs are only worth what they are currently getting, but if we paid more we could get rid of them and get some decent MPs in.

You are very brave admitting that.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
"What we pay is what we get, unfortunately. If we want better, we'll have to pay for it."

What we pay is enough to attract the unscrupulous, and (increasingly) those who are unable to hack it in the real world.

The people that we *really* need in Parliament won't be attracted by money as such, but by the belief that they can make a difference (which the current lobby-fodder awaiting preferment by political patronage clearly can't), and by managing to enhance their own self-respect and the respect that others hold them in (a small minority of MPs already manage this - kudos to the few who have not succumbed to the sleaze-pit).
Nick Weeks @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
Sorry, Nick, I really don't wish to be personally offensive, but when you write: "The people that we *really* need in Parliament won't be attracted by money as such, but by the belief that they can make a difference ", I sincerely wish we could have a moratorium on that meaningless term which reeks of Blairism of 1997, along with other equally otiose expressions such as "best practice". Like most of the windy rhetoric Blair and his disciples came out with, it's just a term to fill the silence.

Let's look though at what this "difference" is: Cameron wants to make a you-know-what by being the "heir to Blair" Enough said - no thank you. How has Blair/Brown made a you-know-what?. By gross hypocrisy, by attacking some of the weakest in society while maintaining the status-quo for the well-off: by trying to cut benefits to single mothers in 1997 to Purnell implementing a Tory peer's unformed and ignorant views on welfare reform in 2009 so that people who are genuinely ill or disabled will have to go through hoops and add to their anxieties to obtain a new benefit, and to try to force as many people as possible off it - introduced right at the time unemployment was reachjing 2 million an rising. By, at America's behest joining in wars, one of them illegally prosecuted, by devious and dishonest means, by the then PM virtually lying through his teeth. By seeking to introduce a "part" privatisation of Royal Mail, at the cost of several thousand jobs of ordinary low paid workers, not supported by at least 150 of their own MPs, nor by the public. The only "difference" many of the PLP has made is to their own pockets - including the pampered wife of a millionaire who seems to think we should pay for her security guards, because she is nervous where she lives - it doesn't occur to the silly woman to move to somewhere she might feel safer - including her own home not very far outside London. And another middle-aged man who named mummy & daddy's home as his second home - even though he doesn't live there. The only good thing which may come out of this will be if at the next election their constituents remember their profligacy and deceit and boot them out of office - this applies to ALL M.Ps caught out, regardless of party.


moratorium
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks ago
My local (Liberal MP) sleazed the cheap end of the constituency and students to get elected but not long after he got into parliament he raced like a rat to the exclusive end of the constituency. He was always a bit stupid and ass kissy and he didn't improve with his change in status or locale. You might hate Blair but he's a saint compared to some of the dumb hypocrites people get stuck with.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks ago
I begin to think I prefer genuine crimianls to parliamentarians - at least they are honest about what they do.

Today: Andrew Lansley (shadow health) will learn charged a fortuine to have his house done up just before selling it.

Alan Duncan, a millionaire, seems to want a garden like the one at Blenheim Palace (though he has less than an acre) and charges us for the priveledge - at Blenheim Palace prices. No wonder Cameron and his horrible little chum Osborne kept quiet the last few days.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
I've known a few genuine criminals. Gangsters, murderers, fraudsters, and the usual chancers. Some of my, um, friends have been front page news or created a few headlines. Mosty of them are okay on a personal level but the sort I'd stay away from are pure filth. Same as anything.

I'm pretty sure there's some good MP's even if they make mistakes and get caught up in the wrong company. I was fairly impressed with my last (Labour) MP but she was too much of a party animal and that cost her the seat. The current one (Liberal) rode in on a wave of populism but is full of BS and lining his own pocket.

I think, any reasonable person would be able to tell the difference between someone who wants to build or merely asset strip. While it can be frustrating to watch other people gum up the works or get in the way, one can learn from these mistakes so you don't have to make them yourself.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
A bold Prime Minister, who's prime concern was the well-being of the country, could lance this boil in three simple steps:

1. Publish the full and uncensored official details of all MPs expenses forthwith.
2. Declare a General Election for 4 weeks hence. (Plenty enough time for the public to evaluate their MPs expenses and see whether they - and their party - deserve re-selection and/or re-election).
3. Hand over the matter of MPs expenses to an independent body to come up with a new system of expenses/allowances within 4 weeks to be applied in the new Parliament (4 weeks is plenty of time: its not rocket science).

If a course like this was adopted, then within less than two months Parliament would be purged of the worst offenders and will have regained its legitimacy in the eyes of the public. And, importantly, the new government of the day could get down to the serious business of governing at this time of economic crisis.

Alas, as mentioned above, this depends on the country having a 'bold' PM who's prime concern was the well-being of the country.

Max Sceptic @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Being an MP is a gruelling and demanding job: the mountain of dreary but inescapable constituency work requires you to be a social worker and legal adviser without any training or preparation for either role; working hours in the house of commons - although reformed - are still unsocial; the vast majority of the proceedings in the House and its committees are unspeakably tedious; the long separations from family and friends famously tend to lead to marital break-up, alcoholism and worse; the lack of real power over an over-mighty executive saps energy and will; dependence on the favour of the Whips for any chance of advancement to ministerial office is degrading; those who achieve it are generally unfitted for it, since ministerial success requires quite different talents from those needed to win a constituency election; many of your fellow-MPs will always be uncongenial company; you have little or no job security and your ability to hold onto your seat every three or four years depends on circumstances quite beyond your control; you are fairly poorly paid and if you make up for this by claiming all the allowances that parliamentary officials tell you you’re entitled to, you’re likely to be lampooned across the nation’s front pages and television screens as little better than a bank robber or hedge fund manager.

Look, can you see this? It's the world's smallest violin, playing just for the hard-working MPs. Well, those who actually pitch up for Select committees and votes and stuff. 150 days off a year? And they have the temerity to moan about getting more leave than school teachers? They don't have to be sodding social workers, that's what we pay social workers for.

And bollocks about the fairly poorly paid, they're just greedy thieves. Most of the population of the UK would consider the base salary generous for the amount of work, even without the ludicrously generous expenses. And how about that tasty pension package?

Brian, you need to stop smoking the pink pipe of the political class. They're thieving, bullying bastards, one and all. Their expenses are all going to show up "administrative errors" that would get you or me fired. They are nothing special, it's just useful idiots like you who portray them as something they are not.

Sack the lot of them. Stick the most egregious thieves in jail. Purge the festering rot.

Nothing else will do.
Obnoxio The Clown @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Could someone please tell me why the govenment does not just build a block of flats give each MP outwith a certain radius of London a room with the basics like freeview, Tv and whatever else and then if they do not get re-elected then they hand over the keys. Their would be a small amount of money given for meals and travel expenses and that would be it. This in my view would be the easiest way of doing things. Those MP's who do not live outwith London do not get anything.
Connor McElwaine @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Yes Connor a sensible idea - no more money for buying homes. I have to say that if I earned (earned?) £64,000 I would be more than happy to buy my own food. It is disgraceful that people like Purnell are allowed to claim "groceries". And macabre that John Reid can splash out our money on sparkly lavatory seats.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
I generally support the idea of using hotels or housing stock owned by parliament. I'm not asking that MP's be put into Japanese style pod hotels or army barracks but something reasonable and accountable would fit in with most peoples view of how to run a business. Independent auditing to the same standards everyone else has to deal with would fit with that.

I commented on the PM getting on top of this the other day. Meanwhile, Brown has been dicking around and Cameron has just walked in and picked up the prize. As I've commented before, the PM needs to stop his bluesky daydreaming and flapping about the media and be more practical and sociable. It's not hard.

The PM needs to take another run at this and put whovever the berk handling the report is back in his box. People need physical action not waiting on some jumped up report by someone trying to curry favour with a pretender to the throne.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
Our MP’s snouts are so deep in the expenses trough that their tails have gone curly, so it’s little surpise they can barely come up for air long enough to oink “…we operated within guidelines”

So to save them the trouble (we appreciate they’re very busy people) We've gone all creative on their behalf, and this weeks Spotify playlist is all about fiddling expenses.

www.riphertoshreds.co.uk/the-beat-goes-on/spotified/the-playlist/

Rip her To Shreds
E Lloyd @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
I find this article incredible, Brian. Has Derek Draper really gone?

Labour supporters, rather than spinning and apologising for Labour MPs who've been caught milking the system, should be boiling with anger at this privileged elite who our support has put in a position they've seen fit to exploit in this way. The few, kept in luxury by the many.

They, like Fred Goodwin, should pay the money back if they want to regain the respect you talk about.
Carl Gardner @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
As many MPs commented at the time Fred Goodwin's pension payment was unacceptable despite being "within the rules".
Icarus Icarus @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
Re, Peter Mandelson in Today’s Observer-

But he is correct in this article. Things will be worse for working people under a Tory government, especially one which pulls in 150 new right wing MPs.

I absolutely deplore this government’s record on civil liberties (ID cards, DNA databases, CCTV, email/webbrowsing/IM megabases, privatised prisons), and part of it’s economic policy has clearly failed. It was also far to friendly to the city and the rich. And Gordon Brown is useless as a politician.

But it is ludicrous to thing the Tories will be any better *in any of these areas*. Economic policy will be oriented to help the rich *because that is who the Tories represent and what they have always done*.

The Tories will attempt to shred the welfare state. They may go after the universality of benefits and pensions, but doing so would radically undermine the social consensus.

David Davis was brave to stand on the 42 days interment issue, but there is no evidence that the rest of his party will support that.

All my emotions are for Labour and it’s core values. I will vote Labour (Bury South is too close a constituency to justify juvenile voting). But what would probably be the best outcome would be some sort of severely hung parliament where Lib Dems would restrain Tory excess, but demand PR. PR would ensure we remain a centre-left nation for ever.

http://englisheclectic.blogspot.com/2009/05/peter-mandelson-is-right.html
Paul Halsall @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Mandelson was the LAST person who should have been wheeled out to defend New Labour. This reptile has form going back at least 10 years and we know that after he gave jup being an MP he was still using public money (the following week) to tart up his home and garden before he sold it.

I don't like the idea of a Tory government one bit, but that is no defence of the goings-on with expenses, or the idea that we should let them continue to get away with it.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Brian, they chose to be MPS so dont excuse them,i earn half of what they earn, i have to pay my mortgage, furnish my flat buy my own food [and bath plug,]i dont do porn movies,i work away all week and every month i have to submit expenses to the penny [which the chancers in westminster should do], i dont do sob stories they have been on the make and take , enough is enough its grubby and dirty and the system is corrupt,by the way i live in westminster[victoria] there are small hotels that charge 45 pounds a night that should be ok for the chancers and we save money..
martin lewis @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Another day and yet more sordid revelations. I don't suppose we should be TOO surprised to klnow that our gtreat Spiritual Leader, St Tony himself, remortgaged his constituency home for £296,000 just prior to buying his London mansion for £3.65 million. He only ownes five homes valued at £10million. A skunk in sheeps clothing if ever was.

It should also be no surprise to hear that one of Blair's greatest sycophants and disciples, Stephen Byers has been at it as well: he claimed £125,000 for his girlfriends home, where he lives rent free. The home is a flat. A very pricey one to upkeep (How different to Baroness Uddin, who lives in London in a Housing Association home - well she is so poor)

I hope we now hear no more from the pious Blairites and their "doing the right thing" rhetoric
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
I'm slightly more concerned that Rajan Tata is having problems getting the government to ease the banks credit squeeze. Pundits have commented on the lack of a campaign manager and defocused Number 10. Other comment related to Labour's polling complains that the government lacks focus. If the Prime Minister accidently fell down a flight of stairs over the weekend and broke his neck it would be convenient.

I knew someone as bad as the PM. Vague, waffly, dithering, procrastinating, lacking confidence, awkward social skills, never telling you the whole picture, the whole deal. Get the guy talking about his favourite obsession or something that doesn't need thinking and he was fine. Anything else and you were fubared.

The Prime Minister needs to calm his thinking down and relax, and present himself more confidently and carry people with him. If he did that most of the flack from this affair would've been diverted. He's probably sincere and not directly to blame but he's the captain of the ship. I'm not sure he properly gets that at the moment.

I need to start seeing reasons why he should be PM.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Sorry Charles but I don't think anybody could divert all the flack of so many people chiselling the public purse like they have been doing Byers, Purnell, Blears (who gave the most brazen defence of her selling one of her homes this morning) I think the problem is Brown doesn't realise just how many people are angered by these disgusting revelatiosn. He should have made a severe example of McNulty and Smith as soon as their deceit came to light. Yes, he might kick them out next month but he should have done it the same day.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
I hear what you're saying but it's a manageable thing compared to the turbulance of the past year or so. If Brown hadn't taken his eye off the ball with the phoney election, and every other misstep along the way, the government would have more political capital to burn. But, hey. We are where we are.

The problem, essentially, remains Brown. He's taken steps to sort himself out but he's still not executing that well. He's trying too hard at some things and not hard enough at others. Zen has something to say about that.

A smarter politician might accept and explain the situation better and put it in the bigger historical, economic, and social context. These things happen and now excess at the top and poverty is back on the agenda it's perfectly possible to pitch a new deal. I'm just not hearing that confident, forward leaning, reasonable, and persuasive pitch.

I don't watch broadcast media and never bother with PMQ's but given the waffle Cameron asks it should be possible for the Prime Minister to use that to deliver the pitch. He could also give a keynote but he's spending too much time waffling on about random policy X and random policy Y on his travels.

For a Prime Minister who gave Mandelson such praise after he delivered some obscure speech on what sounded remakably like Tao economics, the Prime Minister is a complete dullard at executing it in a personal fashion. He spends too much time in his head worrying about things. He has to start living it.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Sorry Charles but I don't even think Blair, at his most "sincere" and charming or Mrs thatcher at her most "lady-not-for-turning mode" could do anything about the publics anger (and righteous anger) at the appalling sleaze that now swishes about Westminster.

the only hope wohuld be to bring forward the reshuffle BEFORE the EU elections and local elections and get rid of all those ministers who have misbehaved - I won't bother withj a role-call of their names again.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
I don't think we fundamentally disagree with anything but words and how we get from A to B do get in the way a bit.

A good communicator could persuade people that the change had already happened but they need to be convincing and sincere. People and timing, to some degree, is mere presentation to the essence. If it goes ding and people are reassured no immediate, if any, resignations would be necessary.

There's an Alan Partridge sketch in there somewhere.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Can we at least hear a justification from you Brian, as to why you consider an MP to be "fairly poorly paid"? there are enough people who have been outraged by such a crass remark, as to warrant a response to defend your statement. Please have the guts to do so.
anita steffenberg @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
If everyone's so horrified, why don't you do something about it and de-select them?
Ricardo's Ghost @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"If everyone's so horrified, why don't you do something about it and de-select them? "

Ricardo's Ghost. as a Tory, why not do or say something about this?

" backbencher David Heathcoat-Amory claimed more than £380 for horse manure."
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks ago
maybe cos you got to live in their constituency to de-select them?!
anita steffenberg @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
And these same Labour ministers were having a go at those greedy bankers!

What was that stuff about whiter than white?
roger alexander @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Brian,
I think you must live in some parallel universe.
Ordinary folk are suffering financially and socially in the UK.
The sleaze and spin occurred on Labour's watch.
It was Labour's duty months and months ago, if not years ago to root out these criminals from parliament.
What do you expect the Torygraph to do?
Are you completely brain dead?

Jack
Jack Hackett @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
I'm disgusted with the labour party over this, I don't care if the other parties are as bad, labour is in power, labour could and should have done something about the lack of controls on expenses instead of milking the system themselves.

I will not vote labour again.
simon smith @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
I'm a card-carrying Labour (and Labour Students, for those who think we're shameless yes-people!) member and I have to say that I disagree. On a salary of upwards of 60k, some more than double that, they can pay for their own washing machines and yoghurts. All of my short working life and all of the jobs that my friends and family have had...they've had to pay for that. I worked all day, I bought travel and lunch. I needed to research, I used the internet I paid for seperately. It's common sense and common decency. And while they're attempting to speak for the people, they must live like them. Of course, some redress has to be made where a MP clearly lives too far from London to commute and of course there has to be an allowance for stationary, office stuff and staff...but the current system is having a laugh.

It is a gruelling job, but so are many jobs. And comparing it to coal mining which is far harder, longer and more dangerous is an insult to those that have worked down the mines. It really, really is. It's an insult to the majority of working people.

It's an insult to the vision of the Chartists and the early trade unionists and all those who fought for payment so ordinary people coul work in parliament.

I don't know what the answer is, I don't work in the system (apart from a day a week for an MP who theyworkforyou tells me is far down the list of expenses! woop!) and I don't know it's intricacies of the system but something has to be done. And cynical Labour supporters who say 'at least it's the Torygraph' or 'at least it will be out of the way by the elections' clearly don't understand how important being the people's party is.

I love the Labour party and I believe it's the last bastion of the left atm that has any shred of integrity, infrastructure or organisational skills but there's no excuse for this. I'm profoundly embarassed. People who try and excuse this away or cover it up will ultimately only make things worse. I'm going campaigning next week when my essays have been handed in and I honestly don't know what I'm going to say when the questions come. Apart from say sorry.

"But these are the people on whom we depend for rescue from the depredations of free market capitalism."
These are people that ruthlessly take advantage of all they can get, they are the epitome of capitalism. I know it's a minority of MPs but let's face it, apart from Benn, Milliband and a few others they're all really high profile people.
Rachelle Simons @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
On a slightly different note - miners spent all their lives winging about how dangerous and challenging their jobs were, they should be pleased they don't have to it any more...

There is no shortage of candidates to be MPs - you last paragraph is a straight lie - there are plenty of people willing to do the work, if they current bunch don't like the job they should just f-off and let someone else take their place.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Have you ever been down a coalmine "tory troll"?. I certainly don't think they "whinged".
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
'Smears' are lies - that is what labour specialise in.

Guy Fawkes over at order-order hasn't told any lies that I have seen.

Revealing politicians fiddling expenses is not a smearing - it is a public service.

Seems like the usual lefty tactics of misusing a specific term to imply a wider range, then discrediting the new range and so the term itself - well, you ain't going to get away with it.

'Smears' are lies - that is what labour specialise in.

Revealing politicians fiddling expenses is not a smearing - it is a public service.

tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
i see that the torygraph is being accused of being homophobic by 'next left' so all we need is a cry of 'racist' and we will have the full set of diversionary smears
david cheeseman @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
In the 1990s Labour won power by means of a carefully-orchestrated campaign of smears and spin against the Tories. The result of this was to weaken various pillars of the democratic process - governing through parliament rather than the media, public trust in politicians and so on - and the consequences of this Faustian pact have since become clear. Labour is now reaping some of the consequences of what it sowed at that time.
M H @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Earlier, I posted something in an article that said that nothing too serious had come out. I'm coming round to the view that I was wrong about that.

However, the "pity the poor MPs" speech above is quite frankly silly. If I recall, the average household income is £28k, from which travel to work, food etc are NOT expenses and an MPs salary is about £50k, better than 90% of the population. In addition, the pension scheme for MPs is one of the best in any job. In addition, even if MPs are kicked out, their experiences and knowledge of the system allows them to move on to other jobs without difficulty, especially in the area of company directorships etc. In terms of job security, an MPs job generally lasts about as long as any of us nowadays, and successful (I'm trying to avoid the words popular and hard working in light of what's come out) MPs build up a constituency loyalty that allows them to go on past any election where the winds of change are against the governing party.

I've recently experienced both ends of the pay scale. I've just started a new job after spending about 6 months on unemployment benefit, where I've discovered the system to be a badly managed joke. Now I have a job again, I am certainly not complaining about my poor pay (which is incidentally about the same as an MPs, with 75 miles each way to work and whilst I can claim expenses, they're nowhere near as generous as an MPs!)

What also annoys me is the fact that MPs have spent large tranches of the public money trying to protect the public, who are in effect their employers and paymasters, from learning everything about how they have been taught to manipulate the expenses system to top up their "terribly poor" salary. Even now, instead of directing the police to investigate whether any MPs have committed criminal offenses like fraud, the MPs are committing the offence of Wasting Police Time by trying to prosecute someone for the leak of information about how they've had their noses in the trough.

MPs enter a job where they are elected on their reputation, and the fact that some of them seem to be spending more time and money renovating houses than looking after their constituents is ridiculous.

In short, MPs should recognise that their terrible working conditions are better than those of most of the United Kingdom, recognise that they are accountable to the public and that they have a right to know how their money is being spent.

I think that in the next Honours list should be Joanna Lumley, Shami Chakrabati, and the man or woman who leaked the expenses information (whether he or she was paid or not). They seem to be far more concerned about the rights and responsibilities of this country towards its citizens than any MP.
Robert Michaels @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Just for some perspective...
As a Conservative supporter I've been speculating that maybe this is a Labour trick. My argument has been that they KNEW it was going to come out sometime, so released it to the Telegraph in order to have some damage limitation. I wondered if the plan was to get the "big Labour names" out early, thereby saving their opposition's headlines until very close to June 4th. The public, being somewhat fickle about headlines, would have the Conservatives and Lib Dems fresh in their mind when it came time to vote.

Your argument that the Telegraph is a "Tory" paper isn't one that everybody shares. Certainly, it USED to be. But you must be aware many Conservatives have taken to using the nickname "The Labourgraph" for it because of the subtle swing left it has taken in recent months. Now I'm not sure I agree with that. It still has plenty of right-leaning columnists. All I'm saying is this isn't as cut-and-dried as it seems.

In truth, there's probably a fair chance this isn't dirty tricks by anybody. It's probably just a newspaper trying to make the most cash it can.

I agree with the poster here that all parties are being brought into disrepute by all this. The press are spinning this in such a way as to make it look and feel far, far worse than it actually is. But the fact is, MPs chose to avoid taking a rise by moving their additional money elsewhere in order to "look good" for the public. This sort of short-term opportunistic thinking is never going to be a good alternative to making a plain honest argument. Those chickens are now coming home to roost for everybody.

MPs ... all of you ... next time if you need a rise SAY YOU NEED A RISE. Make the case. Spin and deceit come back later to bite you in the arse.
Steve Tierney @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
So, all the time Labour has been getting rattled you Tories have been getting paranoid?

Whaa...? *spin* Whaa...? *spin Wha...?

Aw, man. I feel dizzy.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Brian, just to put your mind at ease.

No one in this country is actually entitled to a high income and no is is entitled to a house so here are some calculations.

MP's can sell their homes and then rent.
If over 4 years they can make £300,000 then get made redundant and live on say 20,000 a year then £300,000 / 20,000 means they wont have to find a proper job for 15 years.

Not so bad now is it?
lee Matthews @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
But who would want to employ them?
roger alexander @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"little or no job security" I have recently been made redundant and paid my taxes for 31 years, yet Purnell wants to treat me like a criminal.

WHEN labour lose the next election how many MP's will actually be signing on every two weeks? Will i be in the que behind ANY MP for the lie detector, if i am it will be overloaded and broken by the time it's my turn.
lee Matthews @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Brian

I like your article ---

I think the expenses row is only part of the present culture that has been evident for a while.

Cameron is a lightweight politician but has the confidence when it comes to personal attacks on PM because the media is behind the Tory Party and footage shown will be edited to make PM look inadequate.

The Tories have no answers to the financial tsunami the world is facing but they are using every trick in the book to attack and discredit the Government.

Gordon Brown got rid of Draper & Mcbride for smears but what is blatently obvious is that this is how the Tory camp operate both in front of the camera and behind the scenes.

The rich have seen their wealth greatly reduced in the last few months and
are funding the Tory Party to the hilt to get a Conservative Government elected because the know they will be looked after with their inheritance tax reduction etc. and possible removal of %50 tax band.

We can see that money being spent on BBC, SKY, for eg. new reporters are Conservatives. These companies need Tory money.

I now distrust the Tories so much that I think they have funded the Telegraph to gain these receipts to discredit the Cabinet & Labour MPs.
They know by leaving the Tory MPs to last the initial furore will have died down as people become less interested.

Should the Government bring in the police to investigate who took or sold on the receipts----
I'm sceptical that what has gone on previously regarding Damian Green and the Civil Servant getting off for their misdemeanors if it would be just a cosmetic exercise with no findings.

Our PM & Chancellor have their critics but I support them I know as Scotsmen they could've been Nationalists---
They chose the Labour party in their youth and I can recognise that they are true Socialists and practice fairness and justice for all and not just the few.
Socialism is not just a belief it comes from inside a person on how they think everyone should be treated.
It was only recently I heard it put really well by the comedian Frank Skinner when on Question time he said "If jesus was alive he would be a member of the Labour party" that's what he was brought up to believe about socialism.

MPs should get behind the PM unity would show strength and resume Brown's
confidence. He is the right man for the job.
elizabeth curtis @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"Footage shown" doesn't have to be edited to make the PM look inadequate. He is inadequate. All the mugs and dunderheads who go to conference every year and let Labour High Command ride roughshod over them and abolish what used to be decent levels of participation from the floor need to ask themselves why they let Blair and Brown and all the other members of the New Labour cabal steal the Party from them.
William Silver @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Our PM & Chancellor have their critics but I support them I know as Scotsmen they could've been Nationalists---
They chose the Labour party in their youth and I can recognise that they are true Socialists and practice fairness and justice for all and not just the few.

So much for your judgement:

From the Tory Press I say Tory because it's a story you wont like:

The prime minister suffered a new blow this weekend as a top Labour official, who had played a key role in Brown’s elevation to No 10, labelled him a “disaster”.

Peter Watt, former general secretary of the party, said: “At the moment the government appears to have absolutely no direction.”

In an interview with The Sunday Times, Watt lifts the lid on the prime minister’s behaviour behind closed doors, accusing him and Harriet Har-man, his deputy, of sacrificing colleagues for political gain.
bbJ - Posting like Mr Kipling... exceedingly good stuff. @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"MPs should get behind the PM unity would show strength and resume Brown's
confidence. He is the right man for the job. "


Oh purlease, what nonsense is this, he is a weak man with no leadership skills and the only people to treat him with more contempt than the electorate is his own party. And why does HE need a second home allowance at all? He has lived at No.10 for the last 12 years.
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Elizabeth, If I may say so, whether or not the government call in the police to discover the source of these leaks (or attempt to) is hardly the point. The fact is that, with the exception of Woolas denying he bought womens clothing and nappies and claimed for them, no other minister or MP has actually DENIED taking the money - the all hide behind the fig-leaf of "I have done nothing wrong". It may be that legally that is true, but morally, can it be correct for an MP to say that he needed a Kit-Kat and two tins of dog food to do his job as an M.P. can it be proper that senior cabinet ministers liek Blears, not content for c,laiming for a second home, claims for a THIRD?. What make Follett so special she thinks she needs security men pacing outside her home? Well she say she is nervous of living in Soho. Then I would say to Mrs Follet you don't have to live in Soho, you could find a cheaper area near to Westminster, and nobody would know where you live. She didn't have to charge to us her insurance premiums on the collection of expensive art treasures within that Soho house. She doesn't have to charge us £90 a month to have her windows cleaned eiher. As she is a millionaire she could well pay for these items herself.

Earning £142,000 a year Purnell doesnt really need to charge us over £9000 for his groceries, nor £1600 for apparent "cleaning" which wasn't done.


Whichever MP charged fora 5 pence Ikea plastic bag is cheap and tawdry. As for Mr Keith Vas, well, all I can say is that this extremely pompous man has been caught out yet again. Obviously no lessons were learned in 2001.

I could go on and on, but the idea that these MPs are blameless, and care only about "social justice" is pure hookum.

They are both greedy and stupid, as is the person they all worship - Blair. His example of money grubbing seems to have infected a great number of Blairites and in charging outrageous amounts for things - and food - the rest of us have to pay for is monsterous and yet another sign of just how much in contempt they hold us. One final point: we have cases of MPs charging for top of the range TV's - surely a cheaper alternatiev would let them see the news channels, they don't need home cinemas and if they do they should do like the rest of us - buy them themselves.

I am afraid your somewhat blinkered and rose-coloured version of New Labour doesn't accord with the facts.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Alan

Woman do need to be secure when they live alone. At least she's an independent woman and not living off her old man's wealth. I think paying for her to live secure in her flat is cheaper than a hotel in London for the duration of her stint in parliament.

Houses have to be cleaned----I wouldn't like to live next to a neglected property---It's wrong to neglect property and if you are not always around it is responsible to maintain it with a cleaner and to repair roofs etc.

The system in place for MPs was for them to submit a receipt and then the commons would advise what would be reimbursed according to the rules.

Mps represent us 165 days of the year.

They must be able to have their families around them as much as they can--Children expect there to be TVs in homes etc--just think about it?
Is it only people with wealth to support themselves that we want in parliament---

I certainly don't!

Look what's coming--or will it not! be reported?--Tories with more homes than you and I could imagine.
I'm sure they still spend their expenses in full.
elizabeth curtis @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Ken Follett (Barbara Follett's "old man") admitted on Andrew Marr's Sunday morning TV programme in December 2007 that he subsidised his wife's political career to the tune of £100,000 pa.

James Grant @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Well, Elizabeth, I admire your faith in these discredited individuals: For one thing Mrs Follett does NOT live alone in London - it appears that her husband, writer Ken, lives there too. But let us just suppose she was alone: Soho can be an unsavoury place for women alone, but, as I said before she doesn't have to live there - she chooses so to do. She could move to another place where she might feel more secure - there are several developments of flats with gated entrances in London (the art treasures might be safer there too, and her insurance cheaper, so we would save a little).
"Houses have to be clned" Yes. But how about flats? Purnell charged us £1600 but the picture shown in the papers a few weeks ago showed a place that had rarely - if ever - be cleaned.


"Mps represent us 165 days of the year". Quite. And we pay them £64,000 to do so.

"Is it only people with wealth to support themselves that we want in parliament"

Well, Mrs Follett who enjoys wealth befitting a millionaires wife could well support herself. She just prefers to ponce off the rest of us. The housing allowances are not, in any case, intended for security guards. As I understand it the rules allow for burglar alarms etc and general wise security precautions, so she is abusing the rules.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Alan

I am going to compliment you and say you sound above average intelligence.
However Alan it amazes me that you don't recognise a photograph(As in purnell's sink)being airbrushed to extend rust and make it look disgusting.
C'mon own up you agree with our right wing Tory press?
elizabeth curtis @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Elizabth, I doubt the photograph was airbrushed. The decriptions of stained carpets...well, lets not embarrass the silly man further. But I note that he has not bothered to deny the allegations, as I am sure he woukld have done had they not been true.

As regards our Tory press, well even the Daily Mirror is not very kind to the allowances cheats of MPs - hardly part of the Tory press.

The fact remains if these people had not been so greedy and profligate there would be no story. As I said before only Woolas has affected anger and denied the reports against him and threatend to sue (it will be interesting to see if he does).

You should be angry Elizabth, not at the press but at the fact that Blairites have sold out the principles of the Labour party and bought it into disrepute with their appalling greed and self-serving. It makes it harder for the genuine Labour MPs who don't behave in so disgusting and improper a manner, b ecause the perception will be that they are all at it - of course they are not. I have named three ministers who took only very modest expenses, but they will all be tarred with the same brush.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
There's probably about 5 kilos worth of dead skin, bacteria, and insects in your carpet unless you've steam cleaned it recently. Statistically, the pavement outside your home is cleaner than the carpet inside your house. Something to think about the next time you scoff a dropped biscuit.

As people get older their eyesight resolution drops plus we can get lazy and tune out how things are deteriorating. One trick you can use it to photograph your home with a digital camera and see how things turn out. The stuff and clutter it picks up can be a bit embarassing. Oh, and flash photography brings out blotchy skin if you're not eating properly.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
"and not living off her old man's wealth"

No, she lives off ours instead, how very independent of her.
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
That was a very good comment.

I pretty much think the Tories and media are as bent as they come. Using PMQ's for mostly personal attacks and the blatant bias in some of the media pretty much guaranteed me not giving the Tories an inch or consuming the papers. It's called the off button, and something attention hungry politicians and media hate.

Labour have made mistakes but I'm more persuaded they have a better sense of what's required to create jobs and a fair society. Flirting with Cruddas and Purnell is fine but I'd rather Brown rediscovered himself and got on with it. The Tories and media are full of wind. That bluff needs to be called.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
How do you propose to call that bluff, perhaps more rhetoric and bluster?
bbJ - Posting like Mr Kipling... exceedingly good stuff. @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
A General Election would do the trick.
Max Sceptic @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Don't read Guido. Never posted on Guido. But, I note, he's accomodating someone who is impersonating me and is reworking material that appeared in the New York Times. It seems he's branching out into providing a platform for attacking private citizens and plagiarising material. Nice to see he's getting over his history of bankruptcy and drink driving, and building up some credibility and rapport with the world.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
That's interesting. I just did a keyword search of "Hardwidge" of Guido's archive and six pages of your impersonator's posts came up. Curiously he also seems to be some Zen-obsessed, Tory-loathing nut job who has an obsession with the word "troll".
Sam Francisco @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
At least he's impersonating someone with talent.

Maybe I should start a franchise.
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Great idea! You can charge yourself loads of money!
David Ferguson @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
This has turned into a shambolic mess which demeans many MPs from all sides of the house. The fact that these expenses were permissible doesn't exonerate the excesses, any more than the permissible excesses of bailed out bankers and hedge fund owners.

But once the ruckus has died down, we must get beyond the Guido Fawkes 'they're all corrupt' descent into complete cynicism. There are many many MPs on all sides of the house who go into Parliament to serve their public, and make the country into a better place.

Without excusing the troughers, I absolutely have no time for 300k per year columnists with their inflated expense account dinners, claiming some kind of moral highground. And I absolutely abhor the Guido Fawkes tendency of faux anarchism which claims to show the corruption in Westminster, and yet with its smears, invective and cynicism actually has no ideals which could possibly be corrupted.

Regardless of which party they come from (so this is no Labourlist apology) politics needs to be rescued from disrepute. The moral hazards of complete apathy and cynicism about parliament and our political processes are far more dangerous and corrupting than any inflated expenses claim.
Peter Jukes @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Agree with you Peter. I think there are a lot of MP's from all sides that are wondering what the heck is going on and despairing about their chosen career. Call me naive but I think the majority of MP's are in it not for the expense accounts etc but because they want to improve things.
G BN @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
'---I think the majority of MP's are in it not for the expense accounts etc but because they want to improve things.'

well as the presses continue to roll we will know 'who has nothing to hide and therefore nothing to fear'!
david cheeseman @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
Indeed. The Telegraph's revelations, as so far revealed, have shown that, amongst Cabinet Ministers, Alan Johnson, Hilary Benn and Ed Milliband have all behaved extremely honourably and totally above reproach.

I hope this is remembered and reflected in their future progress.

James Grant @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"politics needs to be rescued from disrepute. "

Yes it does, I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is a very easy way to stop people reporting sleaze and criminal activity.
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
They should stop doing it. That's the easiest way. But I fail to see how expenses claims, no matter how distasteful, are either criminal, or comparable to cash for questions and lobbyist sleaze of 15 years or so ago.

Go that far on your high horse, and you slip right off the moral highground into the gutter
Peter Jukes @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"But I fail to see how expenses claims, no matter how distasteful, are either criminal, "

Peter, back in the day, Labour would say that as a society we give and take to and from the same pot. Much fuss was made about tax evaders and benefits cheats taking from the rest of us, taking OUR money from our schools and hospitals. And do you know what? They were right. Margaret Moran and her £22,000 on dry-rot treatment is a nurse's wage for a year, Jacqui's 116K is three teachers for a year and Hoon and his multi-million pound property empire is half a new school. It IS criminal and it IS theft and there SHOULD be repercussions for these people. When the Labour party no longer protects the poor from the rich and powerful and, indeed, become the rich and powerful from which the poor need protection then they have really lost the plot. These people are getting everything they deserve. There is a very good chance the party won't survive this (and it takes a lot to make the tories look good) but if it does '79 - '97 will look like a few weeks in comparison.

I'd rather be on my high horse than completely credulous.
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Charley. I agree it is a horrible system, and I've said time and time it puts all of parliament in disrepute. But it's not criminal, and it's not theft, any more than the inflated per diems of NHS consultants.

You and I may wish it was - but that's another matter. I see no credulity in any of that.
Peter Jukes @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
The BBC reports The Sunday Telegraph is beginning to backpeddle:

"There are those MPs who, despite their good intentions, have none the less fallen victim to an overly complex expenses system that has served to portray their actions in an unflattering light.

"For example, the receipts submitted by Gordon Brown for the cost of a cleaner, shared with his brother Andrew, fall into such a category.

"There has never been any suggestion of any impropriety on the part of the prime minister or his brother."


Okay, so when is the editor of The Telegraph going to resign? The paper was irresponsibly chasing headlines that could've wrongly ruined reputations and lost people their jobs. What makes the media think they're immune?
Charles Hardwidge @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Taking something that doesn't belong to you is theft where I come from Peter.
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
We may see what a jury thinks...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/08/tony-mcnulty-mps-expenses
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"Like the coal miners of the past, they do a job that few of us would be willing to do, but one that for all our sakes has to be done by someone."

Hmmm.... From what I've seen on this blog, I'd say that 95% of the posts have come from 'activists' would would sell their grannies into slavery for the chance to be an MP.
Max Sceptic @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
This whole episode is damaging for democracy overall. Reforms should have been introduced long ago, and let’s face it the Tories would never have done so. We now need to flex our progressive muscles and individuals need to show some humility on the issue. Yes the Telegraph has a clear political axe to grind but the current focus on who leaked the information show s a complete disconnection from what is being said in the pubs, restaurants and on the doorstep. People believe the media are acting in the public interest by releasing this information. Labour needs to introduce sensible reforms quickly and show some moral compass on the issue. The vast bulk of our MP'S do a good job, let’s get back to representing our people and fighting a resurgent Thatcherite Tory Party
Mike Amesbury @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Mike, we both know the Tories have done it too. When the full claims are disclosed in July then the public will be too bored to care (if their not already).
Keir Stitt @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
That is undoubtably true, Keir, but it ias absolutely no excuse for the Blairite ministers and MPs who have, through their greed and stupidity, bought shame and disgrace on the Labour party and will probably ensure that it will take years to repair the damage and inspire confidence in the public again.


It is all very well for these people to claim they ahve done nothing wrong, and that it was within the rules. If true, the rules need to be ripped up and rewritten to be more draconian.

There should also be an end to MPs and ministers BUYING second homes. Money should only be given for them to rent. That would end their housing scams.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
"The illustrious Guido Fawkes, über-blogger and publisher of the smears of prominent Tories and their wives, goes to town with talk of villains, shame and charades; the Guido fan club, faithfully following his cue, falls into line with a raft of ‘comments’ — 191 at the last count. It’s calculated to bring our whole political system into disrepute, just at the very time when we need to support our political leaders, most of them decent and honest men and women trying to make the world a better place..."

Brian, stop deluding yourself. MPs voted for their own expenses system and as recently as April Fool's day, relaxed the rules even further. The political system is in disrepute precisely because of the behaviour of MPs. Guido, the Telegraph and the tabloids are simply reporting the disgraceful goings on. Blaming the messenger is pretty lamentable.
Paul Pinfield @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
MP basic pay is greater than 95% of the population.
In what sense is that "fairly poorly paid".
Indeed for lobby fodder - which is what 99% of them are - it is fairly well paid!
Chris Chris @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Brian I am sorry I don't mean to be rude but thjis post of yours is laughable, the nadir being reached when you write:

"you have little or no job security and your ability to hold onto your seat every three or four years depends on circumstances quite beyond your control; you are fairly poorly paid"


Three or four years? There is hardly ever a general election called before 4 years has elapsed from the last, and this time it looks as if it will be 5 as it was in 1979 and 1997. So these "poor" MPs have a jobn for at least 4 or 5 years. FRather different for the proles - "temporary contracts" means a person might only have a job for a week - a month if they are lucky, and even long term contracts are usually only for 18 or 24 months. So they do far better than ordinary people. I don't know quite while you feel so sorry for them - if they can't face the idea of being seperated from their families (what about service personnel? thanks to Blair's wars many of them in Iraq or Afghanistan don't see their families for months, and some will never see them again), if they don't like the idea of advice surgeries, the working hours, or they feel they may have an alcohol dependency, they shouldn't apply for the job in the first place. You make them sound as fragile as a Victorian lady poet.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"and the parasites who merely comment on blogs "

Nice.

Alex do we really need stuff like this at LL?
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
It's a measured, balanced post. Taken in context, I think it's clear which commenters and which blog Brian's talking about.
Alex Smith @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Shame about your moderation policy. Censoring strong anti posts just makes this site less relevant.
bbJ - Posting like Mr Kipling... exceedingly good stuff. @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Quite right: no parasites commenting on this blog.

(Well, at least since MPs and trade union leaders stopped posting).
Max Sceptic @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
OK, but people being rude on blogs is hardly the cause of the problem is it?

There's a very, very easy way to stop Guido reporting on sleaze, can you guess what it is Brian?
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Do tell. I can't wait to hear this.
Steve Tierney @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Make sure there's nothing for him to report on perhaps? Alien concept I know...
Winston Smith @ 69 weeks and 1 day ago
"No wonder the intellectual and charismatic cream of the population would rather be water-boarded than submit to the rigours and penalties of such a career."

Which begs the question why do the Blears, McNultys, Purnells, Folletts, and Smiths condescend to do this job, rather than the easy money they could earn being lavatory attendants?. Well, as I have said before, a measure of arrogamce, a belief in their own self-importance - and the chance to furnish a second home or even build up a property portfolio at our expense, perhaps?

There ARE some decent MPs of course: Ed Miliband, Hilary Benn and Alan Johnson are three ministers who have taken very very little in the way of allowances. I don't even grudge John Prescott two lavatory seats, it is people like Purnell, McNulty, Blears and Purnell I most detesty, for having the cheek to talk about "benefit scroungers" when they are benefit scroungers themselves.
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"Being an MP is a gruelling and demanding job... blah blah blah ... you are fairly poorly paid..."

Spot on there Brian. Let's face it, only 95% of the country are getting paid less than MPs. Lucky they're not 'very poorly paid' - then they would only be getting more than, say, 90% of the country.

Seriously Brian, if you genuinely think that three times national average earnings is 'fairly poor' pay, then you need to get out of your London latte parlour and talk to a few real people.
David Ferguson @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
I agree.

And I'm a member.
Rachelle Simons @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Publishing these details bit by bit, targetting Labour first and before June is good for getting the right wing elected to the European Parliament. It puts a lot of voters off politics, off voting, but right wingers are more likely to vote so it may help the right do better.

I recall before the last Euro elections the roll of the MEP being slagged off, the left wing vote falling and a right wing EP being elected, which has proceeded to act in the best interests of big european businesses - left wing MEP's may have voted for green solutions, workers rights, local collective agreements trunmping that of the country where the contractor comes from, opposed rules that allow East European truck drivers to mow down our pedestrians and cyclists, but what good has it done? The rich aren't just investing money in the Tory Party - the clever place is in the media which dictates the agenda, and so effective it is too.
Jonathan Morse @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
I'm not interested in self-serving justifications for the appalling misbehaviour of MPs of all parties. I take the points made about MPs being emasculated, at the whim of the whips, and reliant on patronage for promotion - why haven't you (collectively) done anything about it?


As for the rest - I don't expect further attempted defense of indefensible behaviour. I expect a proper recognition that the action of what appears so far to be a substantial proportion of MPs was *entirely contrary* to at least five of the seven "Nolan principles of public life", and especially especially represents a gross breach of the principle of "leadership".


Each dodgy MP owes a personal apology to *every* person on benefits that has ever made any error in completing a form and been penalised for it - no "sorry - made a mistake" for them! Each dodgy MP owes a personal apology to *every* UK taxpayer for trying it on with our money. Each dodgy MP owes a personal apology to *every* elected representative - from Parish council to Unitary Authority - for imposing appropriately stringent rules for the conduct of members of such bodies while cavorting in such inappropriate laxity themselves. And so on.


Any MP who cannot recognise this is entirely unfit to serve the public in any capacity whatsoever, and I'd hope that constituency parties will consider de-selection (where possible) for any MP who fails to both apologise and to reform their habits.
Nick Weeks @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
What is this article saying? That its OK to be a thief because you have a difficult job? Scrubbing toilets on miniimum wage to feed your kids is a difficult job. Sitting down with a cappacino and your property portfolio and working out the best way to pocket tens of thousands of pounds of someone elses money isn't. LL needs to get with the program otherwise you're part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
hear hear charlie. i was a labour voter until eight years ago. they are predictably hopeless once in power. This site has not got the first idea what the public mood is, and as for justifying the 'paltry' mp salaries! I had the (mis)pleasure to have dinner with a group, including Gordon Brown, about twenty years ago in Edinburgh, the Doric Tavern, and I can tell you my opinion of him hasn't changed. Delusions of grandeur, pompous and arrogant. get them out for all our sakes.
lorraine cleaver @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
I can not believe the third last paragraph, outlining "hardships" of MP's. Its absolutely ridciculous to make such suggestions, especially as they get a 3 month summer break. Not once to you mention the fact that they choose to go into PUBLIC SERVICE. They are not in it as a lifestyle choice but to serve the public. Yet again Labourlist fails to judge the mood of the nation and merely chants the Stalinist style mantra, fed by their friends in government. I am so looking forward to this site dying a slow death of a thousand cynics.
anita steffenberg @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
So public service means putting yourself up for ridicule? I don't think so. That said, many of these claims are unjustified. I think people get into politics to make the world a better place, albeit in the way they think it should be made a better place. I don't think that entitles the press to ridicule them or means that they give up their rights to privacy, unless they say one thing and do another.
Jonathan Morse @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
You mean make their world a better place!! Come on mortgage / rent payments and utility bills are one thing bug gay porn, pot plants and kit kats. This is taking the PISS!
Jason Deeney @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
I don't support any particular party. I have watched all too often as the broken promises once a party gets into power, fall by the wayside.

As an ordinary "Joe" I am angry, apalled, disgusted and now actually frightened by what the future of British Politics has to offer.

In this day and age I feel we must accept the system has irretrievably broken down and should be looking at an alternative. We have the technology and supposedly the brains to invent a new system of democratic politics.

Until we do, we should have a "None of the above" box on our polling cards to show that the current situation is just not viable any longer. The British people deserve better than what we have now.
John Salmon @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
The biggest flaw in your sense of perspective is this - the banker and hedge funder played to the rules and must remain within the spirit of the rules; otherwise they end up in jail. The fact that no bankers have been locked up for staying within the regulations shows that the banking system regulations were not up to the job; this mitigates their behaviour. Bankers are in the business of making money, that is their raison d'etre.

MPs are not there to make money, they are public servants to govern and display good and moral judgement as our representatives; 1 MP for every 90,000 of us. MPs are not there to rip off the taxpayer with dodgy expense claims that show absolutely no judgement and absolutely no morality.

So there is a big difference between bankers and MPs.

I'll treat dishonest MPs fairly when they treat my taxes fairly by paying back where they have made ludicrous claims and make a proper apology. MPs need to remember they are there to serve us not help themselves.

If they don't like that idea, they can stand down and their constituencies can pick new candidates and we will decide who to put in the House of Commons.
a b @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
What, all MPs?
Brian Barder @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
It looks like it'll have to be most Brian. Having broken the economy its looking like Labour have broken parliament itself.
Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
That's ridiculous. Parliament is not broken over a few dodgy expense claims. I don't agree with the post but that really is hyperbole.

You're like those doom heralders on CiF who make a pig metaphor and or call the Labour party fascists three times every single comment.


Also by the way I think the current second homes allowance was devised by Thatcher :]
Rachelle Simons @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
"You're like those doom heralders on CiF who make a pig metaphor and or call the Labour party fascists three times every single comment."

Well done, you win the non-sequitur of the week award.

Charlie Farley @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
And I suppose it's all Thatcher's fault that these MPs have the morality of pigs fighting over slops in the trough. Silly me.
a b @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Yeah. There's acute analysis for you. The expenses system was invented by Labour, and only Labour MPs have benefited.

Oh wait.
Peter Jukes @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
No, hang on, sorry.

Respect is earned and it is not demanded.


Forge Lindin @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
@Forge

>>Respect is earned and it is not demanded.<<

And there, in a simple sentence, is everything that's wrong with society. How succinct.

Respect should not need to be "earned". It should be freely given to all automatically. Respect can be "lost" when somebody shows themselves unworthy, but the default setting should be: "respect - on." That's the recipe of a decent society.
Steve Tierney @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
Can anyone tell me the difference between MP's fiddling their expenses and benefit cheats?

roger alexander @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago
'it's all within the rules'!

can i have my kit kat now ?
david cheeseman @ 69 weeks and 2 days ago
One word answer Roger: NONE!
Alan Giles @ 69 weeks and 3 days ago