Iain Dale's doublespeak

Yet still Labour List censors any comment about Labour's role in the kidnapping & dissection of thousands of Serb civilians & Iain, whose party also supported it, doesn't censor. So who does that make the racist when it comes to human beings not golliwogs?

What's the odds Draper keeps up his record of 100% censorship.

Dale thinks to self:

"Either that wallpaper goes, or I do!" Coughs, and gives up political blogging for ever.

PS - How have I become Chris Pail? That's not my name. That's not my name. Etc etc

John Gaunt was in fact sacked from Talksport for calling someone, a Labour MP I think, a nazi. The difference I think with Jon and Russ' palaver was that it was a recorded show and could and should have been stopped by others - who have been sacked - and that also it did not involve any of the conventional -isms really.

The sexaholic nooky-wooky outed himself and a notably sexually active young woman as collaborators in making the beast of the two backs. Factually correct. And he and his notably flippant, rude and crude compadre joined in in speculating about how one of her aged-rellies might react.

He, that aged-relly and a national treasure, had I believe heard the whole lot and certainly preferred it not to be used. But he clearly did not put his foot down with enough force as BBC people felt able to relay his consent for some of the material to be used. It's crass and stupid and so on and so forth but it ain't "golliwog" or "nazi" or "mincing queen".

Personally I think the sacking of Carol Thatcher for this is OTT and a convenient hook to get rid. And I say that even though it appears that she is extremely ignorant, insensitive and unreconstructed.

But all of us 'type people we see and meet and hear. Overcoming that or recognising the need to overcome it or harnessing it ... all things that cannot have been at the top of the agenda for the poor neglected Thatcher children.

Goodness, "Thatcher's Children" covers a generation. But imagine actually being one in the blood line of the Thatch? Aaaaaargh!!!!

The intended target of CT's repeated "golliwog" and in one case combination with "frog" is light skinned and does not have hair that looks like the "golliwog" 'type. So much so that rabid commentators were guessing it must have been the wild eyed, wild maned Andy Murray that she was referring to. But no, nothing to do with specific appearance. Just Carol Thatcher trying to find a polite word for "Nigger" is all. Or just being an ignorant silly billy that Adrian Chiles and others wanted rid of, partly if not entirely say the whisperers because SHE was leaking private stuff from the green room about them!!

The Draper-Dale spat is silly, and the offensiveness of Golliwog and other terms changes and needs exploring and testing from time to time.

You should read Adrian Chiles' comments in the Sun. She knew what she was saying, and said she used it because he was black.

What a shame you have to stoop to insults instead of sticking to what the Labour Party Policies are.

Is this what you expect me join?

I notice the amount of comments on the site have gone up by about 500% now you have decided to go back to playground tactics.

Join the Labour Party? NO THANKS!

I think there's a bias towards the tories actually.

It's also generally right wing. We're talking about a channel that actually refused to air adverts to deliver aid to wounded people, simply because they happened to be Palestinians.

Totally agree with you Zain.

Yes, I’m Derek Draper and the idea that offending colleagues is a bad thing is controversial. You’ve rumbled the conspiracy. Well done you.

Hello. Again I don't think I disagree except to say that Labour hasn't had a particularly credible voice in the blogosphere to date, although there have been valiant attempts to rectify that. I think one of Labourlist's roles is absolutely to call out Tory bloggers on some of the rubbish they write. But you're right - that is only one of the blog's roles.

If this is now deemed the new standard of behaviour of those in the public eye then so be it.

I find the term c*** offensive, and believe I am not alone in this. I therefore look forward to hearing leaks of any celebrity or politician who uses this word in private, and watching them being summarily fired.

This is not a story about golliwogs, or even racism. It's about double standards.

Very few bigots are aware that what they're saying is so out of touch. Very few bigots would consider themselves such. But if you don't know better than to use hurtful language, if you think what you're saying is inconsequential or inoffensive, if you don't consider the wider consequences or how you may insult the people around you, and if you use such harmful language, it's pretty bigotted whether you intended it to be or not.

"Why do people defend bigoted comments with technicalities"
Why do you assume that the use of word implies that the intention was bigotted?

Whe do people defend bgoted comments with technicalities. People defended Prince Harry because he was "young" and Prince Charles becaue he was "of a certain generation" and Carol Thatcher because it was a private conversation. A racist comment is a racist comment. People know it is wrong and if they say it they should be prepared for the backlash.

Now it is quite possible to say something racist in nature but without malicious intent, often to mock the attitude of people like Carol Thatcher, but there are clear lines. It isnt about thought police, it is about not sayin things which are needlessly offensive. People do use word which they do not think is racist, but is offensive. Where that is the case, the offender should apologise and explain that they did not realise the phrase was innappropriate. What is annoying is that Thatcher did not even accept she had made a mistake. This would have blown over in five minutes if se had saud "Sorry, I diddnt realise golliwog was an offensive term, I wont use it again and I am sorry for the offense" and no one would have batted an eyelid. What should have been a case of a lady ignorant of what is offensive has turned into the unmasking of people who defend racist comments.

Adam in London - Can't argue with you on the point about Chris Moyles and I am not here to defend the BBC. He should be sacked. He won't be, because he is too popular, but then that's ratings for you. They do funny things to to director generals' heads. Ditto the case with Russell and Brand.

Nonetheless the BBC was right to fire Carol Thatcher over her comments, however innocuous they may seem. After the Celebrity Big Brother debacle broadcasters began to realise that the only way to deal with racist language was to operate a zero tolerance policy towards it; otherwise they can be accused by their audiences of turning a blind to or even condoning racist attitudes - which is exactly what happened in the case of Big Brother and Channel 4.

Of course if an employee at a 'normal' organisation had used the same phrase as Thatcher the sack would rightly have been seen as a bit of an over reaction, although some form of disciplinary action would surely have been appropriate.

But the fact is the BBC has its reputation as a public broadcaster to think about and for the reasons mentioned above simply can't be seen to tolerate the use of such language by its employees. Thatcher ought to have known the word 'golliwog' was likely to cause offense to sizeable proportion of her audience, even if she didn't intend to be racist. She is the daughter of a former PM, after all.

And don't give me that guff about what she said was in private and therefore somehow off limits. Why is something any less offensive because it happens to be said behind closed doors?

To go back to Iain Dale's role in the whole affair, by leaping so readily to Thatcher's defense I think at best he has been quite naive and worse rather insensitive to the effect the everyday use of such language has on ethnic minorities. He should apologise, and move on.

Simon, I don't want a Labour blog to be obsessed with personality and the blogosphere, can't we leave these reactionary ideas to the shrill Right? Just because Iain Dale is a rent-a-mouth doesn't mean we have to attack. Or am I in the wrong place, is this going to be a gossip blog?

between stalwarts of the political blogosphere Derek Draper and Iain Dale

Stalwart? Draper's been a blogger how long?

My lordy the spin starts early here.

The fact that seems to being missed in this whole affair is not that she made a racist comment on the BBC (she didn’t) but that she said something so crass that it offended her colleagues. The fact it’s the BBC is irrelevant. If anyone made a comment to colleagues which (intentionally or otherwise) offended them, at the very least you’d be expected to apologise. It’s called being a decent human being.

The only ‘politically correct’ rule Thatcher broke is the most important one: don’t be a dick.

Derek / Mark

Are you trying to generate controversy in order to boost your traffic numbers?

Are you sure that this topic is what "Labour Minded" people want to come together and talk about?

maybe the bbc are j ust sympathetic tom but you must be blind if you can,t see the bias towards labour

Actually, reading Iain Dale's rejoinder to Peter Hitchins is quite interesting in light of this debate. Dale takes issue with Hitchins' argument and intent, not his language.

To quote a part of it:
"It is, as I say, a free country. You can call us what you like. You can call us 'poofs' or 'queers' for all I care, which I imagine is exactly what you do call us in private."

Have just complained to BBC as follows:-
'Hi,
See here:-
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25007301-601,00.html
It would appear that Clarkson has made a disableist(sp?) comment about our monocular Prime Minister. I am suitably disgusted.
Whereas Carole Thatcher made a comment about someone who could presumably get his hair cut and stop looking like a 'golliwog' Mr Brown can do noting about his Cyclops like status. PLUS he did not even say it in the 'Green Room'.
I'd be grateful if you could make an announcement that whilst Clarkson is not barred from the BBC he will no longer be appearing on Top Gear.'
I suggest that others might wish to do likewise?

Agree we want positive debate Sarvinder, but don't you think it's refreshing that we now have a Labour vehicle that can hit back when Conservative bloggers over-reach themselves in this way? What LabourList has done here is remind people what Labour stands for which is equality for everyone; no semantics, no excuses.

I heard Today this morning and it was suggested that Carol Thatcher was referring to a white player's hair. In that context, her remarks were foolish but not that serious.
However, the Telegraph are now reporting that she was referring to the black French player Jo-Wilfried Tsonga.
Saying she was looking at his hair is hilarious. I bet some of her best friends are black. Perhaps she didn't even notice he was black.
Clearly, referring to a black person as a golliwog is totally and utterly unacceptable and is real racism. Golliwog is about as strong a term as you can imagine - stereotyping black people as stupid, humorous and ridiculous. It's not like calling a gay person a poof, it's like calling a gay person a mincing queer pansy. I think Iain Dale would understand that as hugely derogatory and worthy of disciplinary action in anyone who said it.
Iain - you really can't defend someone referring to a black person as a golliwog, can you?

Perhaps because, contrary to Tory b log theories, the BBC is not actually controlled by LabourList.

Can we not have some positive debate, rather than trying to pick a fight in the gutter with Dale? He's reactive and will no doubt respond to all this and so we'll get a tit for tat spat. What purpose does it serve? Can we keep this LabourList.org instead of DerekDraper.org?

I'm always slightly suspicious of people who profess outrage but don't actually tell us what they're outraged about. This is what Carol Thatcher is supposed to have said:
"Whenever I see that tennis player with the big hair, I am reminded of the Robertson's jam golliwog"

As this story has so excised LabourList that it now has two articles on it, I would have thought that you could at least have bothered to share what we're supposed to be outraged by...

You also at some point ought to try and engage with Iain Dale's actual point - if this is a sacking offence for Thatcher, then why weren't Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand sacked (for what they said on air), or Chris Moyles sacked or even made to apologise when he's been accused of racism and homophobia (again which he said on the air).

indeed. i wonder how Iain would feel about people using words like faggot or homo casually...are they acceptable? i would hope not.