I've never voted Tory because...

I remember in 1979 many people bought into Thatcher's bullshit and voted for that most odious of slimy creatures.

I had a badge I wore with pride at the time; it read: "DON'T BLAME ME, I VOTED LABOUR."

I am praying that I don't have to find that badge again!

http://www.nevervotetory.co.uk/

I've never voted Tory because...

I've voted Labour the last three times. But I don't think I'll be doing it again for a while!

intensely relaxed

Isnt that an oxymoron.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8517278.stm

New Labour can't even organise a juvenile stunt without it blowing up in their faces.
Didin't someone else once claim his account had been hacked into? Whatever happened about that I wonder.

And why has he said he's been 'hacked'. You cannot hack Twitter, can you? And if you can could he tell us how??

New post on the frontpage about this -- let me know what you think...

@David Cotton

To get back to your original point.

These poster “campaigns” are on the whole bogus media stunts, only a few are ever widely distributed (the NHS on being a recent exception).

It is all about setting the news agenda, which is an area where Labour has always had a problem because the most of the major newspapers traditionally back the Tories. The strategy is to get the poster / headline out and hope the (unbiased) broadcast media pick it up. After all what appears on TV and Radio dwarfs all other forms of media, newspapers, posters, blogs twitter etc etc.

It is in this environment that this twitter ridicule strategy works, it is also why most political / current affair sites (including this one) are full of Tory Trolls all suspiciously on message using the same key phrases.

The bottom line is that it works. The “NHS” poster is a great example. Cameron wanted to get out an important part of his strategy out to shape the debate. However there was more comment about his airbrushed face and the defacing of the posters, until even the Daily Mail referred to the campaign as a disaster.

The importance of online media campaigning – especially “astro turf” campaigns can be seen most clearly where public opinion on Climate Change has been altered significantly.

"It is all about setting the news agenda, which is an area where Labour has always had a problem because the most of the major newspapers traditionally back the Tories."

Mark, I think "always" overstates it. From the mid 1990s right up until the Iraq War Labour enjoyed the support of the best selling tabloid (the Sun); the second bestselling broadsheet (The Times); a good section of the other papers - The Mirror, The Guardian and The Independent (by and large); and very sympathetic treatment from the news broadcasters, the BBC, ITN and Channel 4. It's difficult to feel too sorry for Labour on that score.

I also think it's unlikely that the Tory trolls on here are somehow linked to Conservative Central Office, as I think you might be suggesting. If they are, I'd be grateful if they could tell me where to sign up as I could use the extra income.

The reason most sites such as this are full of Tories I'd say is because they're self evidently more interested in current affairs - as can be seen from the newspaper and political magazines' circulation figures.

Hi Mark,

I really hope you don't classify me as a Tory troll. As I hope had been clear in my messages, I support some Conservative policies and some Labour ones. I am, in all effects, a floating voter except for one thing - there is no way I will vote for Labour with the current cabal in charge.

As for the posters not being widely distributed - there were a couple of the Cameron posters in my local city centre (Southampton).

So you are saying that, instead of discussing policies, you want the media to discuss vandalism and immature arguments over who airbrushed what? Is that really the level of politics you want?

If you had your way, would it be possible for the conservatives to ever say what their message was? Or do you want to drown them out in a tide of pathetic nonsense?

And, by the way, the same thing goes for the other parties as well. Except it seems to be more prevalent against the Tories at the moment - probably because they're the ones currently doing the campaigns.

Policies matter. Details matter. That is what we should be concentrating on, not pathetic point-scoring.

Hi David

I wasn't referring to you as a Troll. In fact I agree with what you are saying.

Just making the point that rebuffal or mud slinging does have a place.

I lived in London during the 1992 election and the Evening Standard had headlines on their news stands attacking John Smiths policies almost every day. Many of the facts were inaccurate (to be kind), but many people did not read the papaer, just saw the headline.

It would be great to reasoned debate on evry point, but the media is stacked against the Labour message, we may not always have a choice.

Twitter holds about as much appeal to me as athlete's foot. It winds me up sometimes that just because the media think its a nice pretty playground, that the rest of the country give a monkey's behind what happens there. Oh my, Stephen Fry uses it, we must all bow down in that case. Give me a break!

I'll never vote Conservative for a simple reason. They compounded a problem that existed in this country which led to the destruction of industry, industry that we invented. Over a million ended up on the dole with no hope, no chance and they stayed there. They are still there, as are their children and their grandchildren. Who is to blame for them still being there?

Easy answer is Labour. Really easy, blame the evil politicians who stuck it to the people of Britain, and for the most part, yes, Labour could have made a difference, but so could the Conservatives. Everyone could have made a difference, but it doesn't happen like that does it? We sit here, comfortable in our existence discussing the pros and cons of a Labour or Conservative government whilst there are millions of people waiting for a government with an answer.

I want a Labour government to come up with the answer, but its about as likely as me winning the Miss World competition.

Twitter about, have a laugh, drink some beers. Apparently I'm a crusader, a hair shirt wearing Labour evangelist, but it doesn't sidestep the fact that a Conservative government will be a disaster for this country, but the sad thing is, so will a Labour government. Neither have a clue how to put the spirit back into the majority and they are happy to collect the taxes on the backs of other people's misery. Something has to change people, and change quickly.

Times Ralph by a 100 and Labour have a chance. Otherwise I'll be buying my Tshirt and donating to the LL. It's about the best we have at a voice of the real Labour people and I really am all ears. Give me some hope, something that makes me believe that Labour has a future beyond the rubbish I've been reading elsewhere today. The Conservatives only get one line of respect from me, they get called the name they are. Aside from that, they are out of ideas, out of their depth and lining up to screw the average Briton all over again. And GB? He's going to let them because he's short of one vital component for being Prime Minister - a backbone!

@Bill

Times Ralph by a 100 and Labour have a chance.

With you on that one Bill and I think that is a large part of Labour's problem. They need to get on and DO SOMETHING rather than (excuse the French) p***s about making stupid posters.

I think the poster mickey taking is funny BUT when you have the likes of MP's doing it, it makes you think "erm, why are we paying you? Shouldn't you be DOING something to sort the country out?"

Outside of anyone interested in politics (eg. bloggers & Twitter users) I don't think they make any difference. Ask anyone not that political about the posters and see what they say. I'm fairly sure they wouldn't change their vote because of them.

And as for Twitter users, in the main I could show most of the people I chat with a poster (anti Tory or anti Labour) & tell you pretty much their reaction. A large percentage are tribal.

If any party want to make a difference they need to come up with a list of core policies that are calculated to the penny and stop attacking the other parties.

They also need to give approximate timescales of when they intend to carry out the policies. I appreciate they may change but I think most people are realistic if given the truth.

Fine, if the other parties release incorrect information then issue a statement refuting it. But issue it and move on.

The issue then is whether people believe you will carry out your policies. I've seen some good ones from Labour recently however I have a dilemma. Will they actually carry them out, or spend their time drawing funny pictures?

Unfortunately at the moment I know where my money is.

Hi alex

so twitter is about the media not the voter ? more spin ?


Danny

The whiners from both sides need to shut up.

This is just good old politics.

Except for one thing: the internet has changed everything we've ever known.

EVERY party should expect EVERY campaign they launch to be hijacked and parodied online. Instantly. Then trended. Then re-tweeted.

Despite the efforts of all parties, it is the internet that has been the greatest force for real democracy in our lifetime.

Terrifying for the parties. Wonderful for the voter.

My father is Hungarian, and has thankfully given me a pretty clear view of history comparitively, pre and post communism.
Nothing is black and white.
He's lived through the 2nd World War and the Hungarian Uprising in 1956, and at that point became a refugee.
There are pros and cons on either side so I hear!

Personally I favour systems that have a more "social" model- like France and some Scandinavian countries.

We pay little attention to social structures and community at our peril...look where we are now, post 1980's- and could be much worse post May 2010.

@ Mike - In Scotland I do feel we have an alternative in the SNP.

It is clear that their independence desire is still a long way away but their policies must be pretty good as they annoy both the CBI and the Unions and New Labour's tame pet at Holyrood can not lay a glove on them.

A strong SNP/ Plaid element could well be the fly in the ointment that will sort out the untenable political structure at Westminster as the Unionist Parties get scared that Scotland will be lost to them if they do not change.

One can hope that Labour in Scotland move away from their pretence of the unimportance of the SNP on the fields of Westminster before they live to regret it as the impending defeat in East Lothian is repeated elsewhere across the east of Scotland.

@Peter Thomson

It will be tough Peter, but change must occur for the Party to not turn in on itself after the General Elelction. I shall not be going back to South Korea or going to Hong Kong just yet...sigh and will do all I can to contribute as one mere memeber of the Labour Party to the rebuilding of the Party structure and true democratisation of the Party.

It needs to be truly modernised and made into a professional force for the Center-Left. If it is to be taken seriously by the public again it must adhere to the set standards that exist within the private and public sectors with regard to accountability and transparency.

It has to be a truly representative party to even begin to name itself democratic.

I think there will be a terrible backlash after the General Elelction and we will be saying goodbye to a number of people who consider themselves high-flying modernisers (with no real modern ideas to speak of), this is usually what happens after a storm and a clean-up.

Once the money-drivers are sorted out out there will be a natural decline in the situations occuring in East Lothian where an MP's boyfriend has to be dealt with (allegedly) by the police in an act of crude and embarresing desperation.

The money-lust seems to have driven them quite mad.

So this has to change and we need to get rid of the parasites and create a clean (as is possible) political platform for change.

It has to be clean because of the problems this country has to face up too including Constitutional change. Insane greedy parties enjoying the free ride and drinks have to be quoshed and we need real democracy here.

We are after all living in a democracy. This will happen inevitably. It will have to happen for Labour reps to be trusted ever again.

"Insane greedy parties enjoying the free ride and drinks..."

Speaking of which, I read in the Times today that MPs are trying to use the Data Protection Act to block an FOI request asking for details of ~340 Mps who've managed to rack up a collective tab of almost £140k in restaurant and bar bills at the HoC.

It's bad enough that we already subsidise their boozing, but if they're not even going to pay their tabs, they're really are taking the p*ss.

@Monkeybot 5000

Just read it. I think we can say now that they have no excuses and are still trying to hide the truth....it really is like looking after a band of rowdy school children.

We need need responsible grown-ups in Parliament fast!

So what do we think of David Wright MPs contribution to this?

See Iain Dale's blog for details (if you can stand going there) because, frankly, I am not sure if it is against Alex's house guidelines. Sickening, and rather proves my point about how utterly negative this all is.

As I said earlier, a positive way to counter this campaign would be to have said: "The Tories are claiming that people who have not traditionally voted for them are considering doing so. Many of these, unfortunately, will be Labour voters. What can we do to attract them back? How can we energise these people back to Labour?"

Instead, we get this negative campaign.

Hi David, have a look at colin burgon's piece a week or so back: winning back labour's lost millions.

Yep, saw that Alex. There's some good stuff there (probably because I didn't contribute...)

I've never voted Tory because I'm a socialist.

I've stopped voting New Labour because I'm a socialist.

I stopped being a socialist in the 1970s after frequently visiting East Germany and Hungary on business. I had that Blair moment and 1984 loomed. You can still discern the State knows best mindset within the current Gov., and I believe it only is the tradition of democratic Government here that stops them from claiming a Labour Gov. for the next 1,000 years. I have a innate distrust of all politicians no matter what their politics are, so I want them to do less not more.

That's right, leave it all to the markets and bankers. Adam Smith's invisible hand that takes from the poor and gives to the rich.

Oops I forgot, as we all know New Labour is: "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich".

Problem is, Tom, that we have three parties to choose from (taking the main ones into account) where there is actually a good deal of convergence behind all the arguing. The Tories aren't about to bring back hanging or Section 28. Labour aren't about to revert to a more social democratic outlook. I don't know what the point of the LD's is any more.

Its hard to raise much enthusiasm. Still, there's a Compass group forming on Merseyside soon - perhaps that could offer some hope, but I think there will need to be an electoral defeat first

So Labour has no money to launch its own posters so its left sniping from the edges of the internet.

Meanwhile the front bench lie openly about the Tories (harman being the latest) while others create a strawman to portray the Tories as being against reform (Burnham and his stupid childish "I'm going to have a conference and you can't come)

Meanwhile on LL we have stuff like this with tweets from the usual circle showing how clever they are?

Is this it? Is this government renewing itself? Is this what Labour MEANS? What it stands for?

Seriously guys - you are in so much trouble come May 6th

In answer to the question I've never voted Tory because....

"They are an irrelevance in Scottish politics."

or more simply:

"They are a bunch of paternalistic prats."

For a bit of balance I can also add:

I won't be voting New Labour because they are just a Tory Party in disguise (see above for further reasons for not voting New Labour).

I suspect that students' activities on Twitter or blogs has very little influence on the likely voting pattern in the forthcoming general election.

Activists mobilising on Twitter made 70. Calls to voters in 2 hours last Monday. And journalists live it, printing trends on Twitter in the pages of the news and in tv regularly. I don't want to overstate the influence of Twitter, but those are ways in which it will play a real role. Also in rebutting and fighting back on Tory campaigns, like this one.

Alex. Get into the real world of workers whose jobs are going overseas, of communities that have become 'multicultural' within 15 years and suffer 'white flight', of entire housing estates that have gone from working-class to under-class, soaring unrecorded inner-city crime, etc., etc........

These people are not going to be on twitter or attending meetings. But they could be voting BNP in May.

That is the real legacy and failure of New Labour (Tories in Disguise).

Mr Sacold Labour are totally in denial that it is their core voters that are drifting off to BNP. You see they find emotional comfort in the claim that the BNP is right wing and everyone's problem. One regular tribalist here lambasts and belittles me for daring to point out that the BNP are fundamentally a Labour Party problem as they, the BNP that is, have designed their Manifesto in such a way as to attract those disillusioned voters. They do not see, they are blind to the fact, that if Labour want to get such voters back they need hard policies on real jobs and immigration.

Hi Tom,

I appreciate that, and I know Twitter is not very important in the wider context of things. But, I repeat, it's a useful way to organise, and it's where journalists eyes are, and in the election it could be a powerul tool in those senses.

@Alex

I see what you mean about it's possible knock on effect through the media but that will depend on how it's reported. To my parents Twitter is "somewhere you get those jokes from and all that politics stuff".

I do agree on it's power to organise and this I think is a better use for it than message broadcasting. The #MobMonday and #LabourDoorstep campaigns seem to be really well organised through it.

The #LabourDoorstep one particularly is a great idea & one to show that Labour are listening, at least at a local and grassroots level.

Doesn't that kind of prove Bill's point. Your Twitter-mobilised activists only managed to phone 70.

Twitter trends only reveal what users of Twitter are talking about and the fact that our barely tech-literate media are always jabbering on about Twitter doesn't mean it has any real importance in meatspace.

Nobody's going to vote for Labour on the basis of their Twitter usage if they don't have any policies and the party leaders aren't trusted.

Sorry, that's meant to say 700. I wrote it on the
move coming out the tube. 700 is
more impressive.

SO it's not just the Tories who miss a decimal point here and there. ;)

The rest of my point still stands though, it's an echo chamber to which only a small proportion of the population are listening.

Note how any criticism of the Tories brings out the unwanted interloper Tory trolls

"Why do they persist with these poster campaigns?"

Since the last disastrous poster campaign (RIP Off) saw them rising two points in the following opinion poll, perhaps they've concluded being mocked by Labour activists on Twitter isn't actually fatal for their electoral prospects.

Erm, it's no more or less than has featured in some of the newspapers about the Tory posters.

Newspapers also publish pictures of skateboarding cats, funny viral internet videos and humourous adverts.

What this has done is spread awareness of the Tories and their message, albeit with humour. The day after Browns big 'look-at-me-I'm-normal' interview that was supposed to soften/humanise his image and make him electable.

You're quite right, Ludwig. I'll concede that newspapers sometimes print nonsense too.

Yet more negative campaigning.

Not surprising, after twelve years of profligacy and now recession, there is little to be positive about.

You never use my tweets in these things Alex :(

Sorry, Bryony!

@ Bryony

Tell us now.

Excuse me, but isn't this ever so slightly pathetic? Is this the level of *debate* that you want on this site? If so, then Labour will be the poorer.

"Why do they persist with these poster campaigns?"

Why do you persist in playing these stupid games? The Tories have every right to have posters, as have Labour and the Lib Dems. All it does is make it look as though you are not capable of addressing the many issues underlying their policies, and instead are reduced to parody and name-calling.

Of course, it will be hard for the Tories to reduce themselves to this level as Labour will not be able to afford too many poster campaigns in the run-up to the election. Which is, methinks, part of the reason you are doing it.

This just lowers the tone on a day when the Tories have offered you an open goal with point-gate.

well Labour and Lib Dems cant afford a poster and it lord Ashcroft what funding the poster,Tories are losing in the polls and no one cant trust them in power again.

David, have you seen what the Tory grassroots has done today? Same technique, but reactionary, unfunny and nasty.

In fairness Tory bloggers and internet users were asking for people to attempt to parody Labour posters campaigns too.

It's internet activists getting involved in a different way and picking to pieces a message that they don't agree with. It would be the same on the other side if Labour did similar posters so I don't really see the problem. It's people on the web getting involved and having some fun with it.

People may not see the appeal of twitter themselves or think it matters much but the journalists are heading to Twitter for their stories and the internet is becoming a big part of campaigning. It's also not as if it is a substitute for regular campaigning, its just a different branch.

Hi Bryony,

Yep, and I don't like the Tories doing it either.

The problem is the vitriol and lack of control in this form of campaigning - just look at David Wright's stupid comments (and his ridiculous excuse) for an example of how this sort of campaigning can - and will - backfire.

Twitter is particularly susceptible for this, as people tend to fire them off without much thought. Blogs can also be troublesome, but people generally but a little more thought into them - they're seen as being less fire-and-forget.

"It's internet activists getting involved in a different way and picking to pieces a message that they don't agree with."

The problem is that people on both sides will nearly always dislike the messages from the other side. This sort of campaigning precludes rational debate, and just allows people to shout out their prejudices without evidence. It will further polarise politics. Some may be funny; some may be truthful; many are just pathetic (e.g. RedStoat's "because they are liars and self serving hypocrites" above).

As I said, David Wright has been a classic example. I'm not sure how he'll be able to morally remain a minister after this... Could twitter have caught its first UK political casualty?

Spot on, David. This seems to be Labour's election campaign - a send-up of some posters.

It's interesting, isn't it, how these send-ups smack of a party in opposition, not in government - which is virtually the truth anyway.

It's also intersting how those comments above are a very accurate representation of Labour's last 13 years. Amazing how personal and political prejudice blinds people's judgement.

David Cotton,

When there isnt any good news then this is the best there is.

Pointgate is yesterday's Tory mess-up. You've got to move fast in this world, David.

Pointgate?

Someone missed a decimal point in a document? I'm sure Bernstein and Woodward would thank you drawing the analogy.

Not my language, mike, as you'll see if you follow the other comments. And it was more than just missing the decimal, though that's obviously where it started. The numbers were repeated three times in the doc, and it seemingly crossed no one's mind that this was a wildly inflated figure, ten times wrong. I my be wrong, but while the doc
has now been corrected, there's been no apology for the mistake.

But this isn't a 'mess up'.

This is just some people, on line, defacing a Tory poster or two. It may be funny (and I think "...because I'd quite like a public sector job, thanks." is actually sarcastic) but there is no error here just some people on the web having a laugh.

It's no different from, or more effective than, people defacing / making new veriosn of Coke, McDonalds or Toyota adverts.