Ideas, not smears - The future of LabourList

Ok, maybe you could start with the Left's response to Peak Oil:

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

Everything else is pissing in the wind.

"allegations"? What part of this is any sort of allegation? The evidence is in the public domain and has been admitted.

The editor of this website has been revealed to be completely tainted. Derek if you had any decency you would resign. As I believe you have no decency you should be sacked.

http://www.labourhome.org/story/2009/4/13/11560/4605

Prescott calling for Draper to go

Clarke has already

So looks like there should just be another seconder to make it all legal and above board.

...and what about Charlie, will he get off because he leaked the emails?

OK I'll pick this one up and run with it. Here is a full and frank analysis of what happened.

The Prime Minister of a moribund government in terminal decline decides to use a "civil servant" paid £100K+pa of our money to sit in his office playing with himself all day whilst penning lurid invented sexual fantasies about members of an opposition party.

Meanwhile in the real world there are massive economic problems which have been immeasurably exacerbated by that same government's addiction to squandering public funds in similar fashion to prove that all is for the best in the best of all possible Labour universes. The attempted solutions to these problems have entailed identically profligate, politically partisan and unaffordable spending which have got us far deeper into the mire than we might have been otherwise.

The implications for the government should (if there is any justice) be fatal in approximately 12 months' time.

As regards the "important European elections" the Labour Party has ensured that by denying the British electorate any democratic vote on the EU constitution (sorry Treaty)as originally promised we are voting for MEPs who have emasculated powers similar to those of the assembly of a typical authoritarian dictatorship and not those of a true democracy.

I trust that this frank contribution is welcomed by the Labour party and the wider progressive movement.

"The Prime Minister of a moribund government in terminal decline decides to use a "civil servant" paid £100K+pa of our money to sit in his office playing with himself all day whilst penning lurid invented sexual fantasies about members of an opposition party."

I don't think there is any evidence that McBride was masturbating, Andrew!. Did Brown know what was going on?. Who knows? - I doubt that we ever will. It is possible. Some will think so, others not. What do I think? - what does it matter what I think.

I just cannot see the point of continuing this synthetic moral outrage. When I heard about this on Saturday evening, I too, was disgusted, when I read some of it yesterday morning I was still disgusted. then I heard Mrs Dorries for the THIRD time whinging about her "career" (I didn't know she had oen) and it seemed to me she was rather enjoying the experience of victimhood. All it needed was one total denial. by yesterday everyone knew that the allegations against all those involved had no substance, but - yes - there she was AGAIN popping up on LBC Radio in London to repeat everything she had already said twice before, including her desire to seek her remedies int he courts, which will merely serve to make the "allegations" even more widely known.

In a perfect world no political party would indulge in smears and lies but - I'm sorry to repeat it - BOTH major parties do. Back in 2006 for example, George Osborne apparently implied that Gordon Brown might be "autistic" - not a very nice thing to say about anyone. There has been some truly vile epithets aimed at Derek Draper on this site. It seems somewhat hypocritical for people to complain about insulting Mr Cameron et al, when they are using insults and abuse at somebody else. If and when the Tories get caught doing something underhand, designed to smear another party, I just hope all the newspapers and (dare I say it) posters on this site are JUST as outraged for JUST as long.

I really do think the longer all this outrage and name-calling goes on the more synthetic and artificial this "outrage" looks. There really are many other matters to discuss, as you so rightly say, Andrew.

I am longer involved in Labour but that has nothing to do with the present matter - my loyalties were stretched beyond breaking point when Brown decided to infest his cabinet with extreme right-wingers and the return of somebody from brussells I had hoped we had seen the last of in British politics. I just feel this matter, repulsive as it undoubtably was, has been discussed for far too long.

Alan,
How dare you call the outrage we are feeling synthetic and artificial. The outrage felt by anyone who is not of the political classes is completely genuine.

Not just because of the stupidity of the people involved in this episode, but because of the refusal to allow us to decide on the EU constitution; the money wasted on schools but which are still failing our children; the hospitals which make the patients ill because they are dirty, the disappearance of NHS dentists; the ridiculous benefits system which is so complex that many deserving people go without, while the career benefitters suck the system dry; the ministers who are fiddling their expenses to claim for TVs, bath plugs, barbecues and lavatory doors; the the war in Iraq based on lies; the probable appointment of Blair as our unelected European president; the complete hash that the governemnt has made of our finances; the monitoring of our every movement with very expensive ID cards/passport systems and their complete inability to control the data that they already have.

I think those are good enough reason for our outrage. Unfortunately I dont see another party puting it right because they all belong to the political class and are quite happy with things as they are.

Well George, the question of the EU is hardly what has been discussed at length here, is it?. I'm sorry if I have offended you or anybody else: I was referring to the lengthy discussions on THOSE emails and the 2 days of indignation as somewhat synthetic. Surely there comes a time when enough is enough?

That said, I am not too happy with the EU myself: of course there is UKIP but there is also another party, No2EU which has some leading figures from the Left including Bob Crowe of the RMT within it's ranks. I'll try and find you a link to it and come back to you.

Needless to say I also agree about Lady Bathplug and Tony McNulty, Dawn Butler Hoon and co - as I have made clear on other posts.

If you have ever read what I have written you will know of my contempt for Blair - I would be horrified if he got the EU job - but where would he find the time, with his religious foundation, part time lecturing and expensive after dinner talks - they pay more and I think that would be a major consideration.

I feel sure we agree more about things than we would disagree, I just think the sport of kicking Derek Draper has gone on too long -

Dorries is smart enough not to let this opportunity to harangue Labour pass by, which is just one of the reasons it should never have happened. The thing is that McBride/Draper came close to slandering her, so she is right and they are wrong. The same is true of all the rest of the righteous indignation spewing forth. Muckraking is a really bad idea. More to the point, it is immoral too.

"QUOTE of the DAY, Today Monday 13th April 2009.
For those who have suppported LabourList and feel they have been let down, I apologise. I would encourage them – and others - to stay with us: read the site, get involved, make some comments and write some posts. Join the community and make it what you want it to be. Derek Draper. LabourList"

Can you believe the Chutzpah........Does anyone take this buffoon seriously......?

What you need and what you will get is a long period of despised opposition, in which I hope you will learn to reconnect with the progressive spirit in the British people that got you elected three times, and which you have (especially this weekend) conclusively lost.

What you manifestly dont need are people like Draper and Maguire and even the clever ones - inauthentic, and in one case clearly unwell, media spivs; who are in addition so cack-handed and inept that they have allowed a bunch of rather mediocre old Etonians to present themselves as saviours of the nation.

As you would imagine a website produced by such people is piss-poor beyond parody. Articles almost exclusively from well connected members of a decadent elite, spouting poltically correct pieties from privileged positions and sinecures; and so badly written they make John Prescott (whom the gods preserve) read like Trotsky.

I await the tory troll abuse that passes for debate amongst the vanishingly small number of posters defending this site but its quite simple: pack him off to rehab; close it down now, and start a new one that at least appears to be trying to tell the truth from whatever is left of the parties perspective.

History is going to be very harsh on those of you on the inside who have been aware of whats been going on and done nothing to stop it.

One of the more perceptive posts today.

A period of opposition is on its way. Why don't we change leader now? It would give Harman or Cruddas or one of the others a 12 month run up to the next Gen. Election to minimise our losses and allow us to playdown the Tory headlines like "End of Boom, and bust".

Where labour minded people come together? Really? Perhaps you should change it to: Labourlist.org THE HOME OF THE NASTY PARTY.

That your editor has managed to wrest the title "The Nasty Party" from the Tories (the rightful holders of the award) takes some believing, but it is clearly true. Forget resignation surely whoever pays for Labourlist should be sacking him.

Charlie Whelan of Unite Union pays for Labour List.

Keep it up; you and McPoison have done more damage to labour in the last few days than any right wing newspaper could hope for. No more invites for lunch with Gordo for you.

Whilst you at LabourList might like to focus attention elsewhere it is unlikely to happen because you and your leaders have not got the backbone to kick out the morally bankrupt elements within your midsts. To suggest to your readership that THEY should be concentrating on more important things when your own editor has been busy sewer-sledging is a tad rich. If you seriously want your readership to focus on more important issues then get your own house in order and sack your contemptible editor. As for those who say the Tories are just as bad / worse; no doubt this is true...but utterly irrelevant. I am not a Labour Party member, nor a Tory, nor any other party follower but I AM a voter....and believe me, the voters are SICK of you all....Draper / Mcbride / Whelan are merely symbols of a much much wider political malaise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPvGPUFucyQ&feature=player_embedded

So Long. Farewell. Auf Wiedersein. Adieu.

...oh, and goodbye, till Draper's sacked.

Your use of the term "smear allegations" pretty well sums this site up. You guys just can't help yourselves. They were "smears"

I have no witty repartee to give, no advice, no wisdom, nothing except two words that will simply register the mood of the nation over not just Dolly and McPoison, but over Gordon Brown and the Government at large. These two words, though simple, do encompass, perhaps even understress the complete and utter balls up that Brown and his predecessor and their Ministers and Spin Doctors have not just made of Number 10, but of the state of the country and of the reputation of Politics.

Those two words are:

Epic Fail.

Dave Dave For all their faults New Labour didn't invent spin doctors. Remember Mrs thatcher's attack dog, Bernard Ingham who went as far as to describe one of her ministers (John Nott if memory serves) as "semi-detatched"(i.e. mentally unstable). He also said rude and disobliging things about other ministers who caused his mistress (in the employer/employee sense - I am not suggesting anything improper) - displeasure

I am just asking for a degree of fairness and balance here - I think "spin doctors" are probably more trouble than they are worth, but you cannot get away with the implication that NL were the first to use them.

Haha. No, Labour did not invent the Spin Doctor. And your point is?

We're not talking about other people's indiscretions here, we're talking about the indiscretions of Gordon Brown's closest adviser, as part of their campaign to fight the next General Election on a basis of pure lies and general slurs and the fact that he got caught doing it because he was too lazy and complacent and drunk with power to even bother covering his tracks.

But no. Labour did not invent the Spin Doctor. I think cavemen did to be fair, I mean you're spinning yourself by trying to push the debate onto a completely moot point by referencing something that happened almost 20 years ago.

Please. Fairness doesn't exist in politics. Labour have been caught out as being thoroughly nasty little shits, they deserve to pay the price.

Seriously, c'mon. Cameron is so dim he's forgotton the Tory attempt to set up a spy network in government and the Tory support for artificial protest campaigns. When's he going to apologise for acting like some mobster?

There's only one way to deal with a punk like this: "Head shot".

Charles. That attitude that is part of the problem.

Charles, show us the emails

I was disappointed by all of this because the other day when I read this article - A Lack of hostility - I thought the site was finding it's own voice, and creating debate.

I understand the annoyance caused by bloggers like Guido Fawkes but unfortunately all this has done is let more people know about his site and make LabourList look like a very contrived government controlled attack site.

I expect that the next 10 days or so will still make for painful reading in the papers. I truly hope that this site does become a home for ideas and debate, instead of engaging with the gutter blogging of Guido.

Steven, by "Gutter Blogging" do you mean "Exposing the unacceptable tactics used by Civil Servants in an attempt to prop up this corrupt Government" ?

This site is Toxic.
Draper has umbilically linked it to the Brown/Whelan/McBride wing of the Labour Party. You will have to work very hard to rid yourselves of that image.

Until Draper is defenestrated, the vast majority of your readers will only visit LabourList out of morbid curiosity to see what the idiot gets up to next.

Charlie The man who wrote the stuff - McBride has resigned - or been sacked - frankly I hope the latter.

I know this will not be a popular thing to say, but McBride occupied the same position for Brown as Alistair campbell did for Blair.

The one thing you can say for McBride is that he didn't help to prosecute an illegal war, by talking to "mates" (as he himself described him) like John scarlett, or wrote or compiled dodgy dossiers, or hound a decent man (Dr Kelly) to his death.

McBride sounds odious (then I expect most "special advisers" are not exactly the kindest people in the world), but given the two examples, who caused more REAL - and lasting - damage?

I am so happy to see what has happened to the party my late parents supported for most of their
adult lives. They had this pathetically misguided notion that Labour stood for morality, equality
and the excellence of the working man. Of course they were wrong to place their faith in such
misguided concepts, and now thankfully the party has adopted its rightful place as the repository
of all that is vicious, mendacious, murderous, duplicitous and rapacious - may you and your acolytes
advance for as long as forever is -

Thanks Alan. I agree that the fact that Brown's Campbell-equivalent, McBride is indeed no more is a step in the right direction. But only a step.

The whole concept of LabourList is one of Top-Down Control. Draper is way to cosy with the Brown/Balls Spin Machine for this site to be perceived as anything other than part of that apparatus.

OK so funding for LabourList is not provided directly by the Labour Party, but it is provided by Unite, one of Labour's bigger backers. So this is just a cosmetic detail.

Whelan (Unite's Campbell equivalent) was one of McBride's predecessors as Brown's Attack Dog. But he was forced out by Campbell over his perceived role in one of the Mandelson resignations.

The link to all these unsavoury characters is Draper. He has known them all since pre-breakdown days and has been intimate with them all since the founding of this site.

In the light of recent events, it will be interesting to see whether the broad-church (ie Campbell, Mandelson and Prescott) continue to contribute to Labour List.

I suspect not until Draper has gone.

"There are 17 people who count in this government. And to say I'm despised by every one of them is the understatement of the century"

Derek, just go.

I completely agree - Derek should already have gone.

But that would require demonstrating a tiny shred of decency and integrity - which events have shown to be totally lacking.

'In the meantime, we want to get back to what LabourList was designed to do.'

Smear your political opponents?

Roger: The Tories do it as well, you know. You would think this is the first example of the kind we have had. The moral indignation that has been stirred by the press and LBC Radio in London (some of their presenters sound as if they are broadcasting for Conservative Central Office rather than a studio) and shows no sign of abating is doing nobody any good: I am sure there are Tory and Labour MPs (McNulty/Smith/Cohen/Hoon/Darling) who are going down on their knees to thank McBride for creating a diversion away from the embarrassment of their expenses. This seems to me a much more important issue. I have no doubt, given the nature of the internet and the general increased aggressivness of both major parties, we are going to have many more "smear" campaigns conducted by BOTH parties,

This latest stunt was vulgar, but I think you can be pretty certain the Tories furnish certain newspapers with titbits to smear Labour: for example all the expenses stories run by the Mail have been about Labour MPs and ministers (and I have had enough to say about them) but do you seriously believe there are'nt any Tories doing the same thing?. It is, as my dear old dad used to say, a case of "six of one and half-a-dozen of another".

Does that mean it is "right" to do it?

It certainly doesn't mean it is right, S.B. nor do I condone it, but it is a fact of life that BOTH major parties engage in smears all the time, always seeing the worst in their opponents.

I can't imagine Joe Haines, Harold's press secretary indulging in that sort of behaviour, but the high profile spin doctor role, as I pointed out elsewhere, only really became publically noted with the acerbic Bernard Ingham nearly 30 years ago.

You don't make the rules more acceptable by using them yourself

Better to put forward a framework to prevent these things in the future, otherwise

Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword

Stop bleating and add something constructive to the debate

I only joined this site so that I could say, I will never be posting here again. Oh! and thanks for a very entertaining few days over the Easter Break. You boys really do know how to cheer the electorate up. Yeehaa!

With respect to you, Mr Salmon, if you are reading, if not contributing, when I read a contribution like yours it makes me feel that people like you would support dog fighting or bear baiting were it to be re-introduced.

The people involved have apologised: Ministers have apologised. All admit the whole affir was tasteless and wrong. What more can they do?

Please provide the links

I said I wouldn't post again but Mr Giles deserves a response. I would not support dog fighting or bear baiting, it would be no where near as entertaining as watching this unfold. (I'm certain that a lot of us dissillusioned, browbeaten, overtaxed peasants are rubbing our hands with glee as we watch them squirm).

What more could they do? For a start, don't accept his resignation. Sack him and make him forfeit his pension. That would be a start in the right direction. Do you really think they apologised for their wrongs of for getting caught. I know what I believe.

Mr Salmon I have said that I would hope McBride was sacked for the very reason you mention rather than resigning, and I hope he is not allowed to work secretly for Labour again.

I just think it is rather unfair to join a site just to express great enjoyment of something that is embarrassing and regrettable - especially when we all know that both main parties are at it all the time.

I think with all due respect that the Tories are displaying just a little too much moral outrage. It is self-indulgent when you consider they are supposed to be very concerned at the present state of the nation. Mrs Dorries, for example tells any radio station who will listen that "they" are trying to "damage my career" - I don't suppose until saturday until she chose to keep appearing on current affairs programmes, many people apart from her constituents even knew who she was - let alone about her "career". For somebody facing losing their job or their home - or both - the fact that a few top politicians have been insulted is probably neither hear nor there. Arthur Balfour's words come to mind: "Nothing matters very much and most things don't matter at all".

You can't complain about the comparisons when you use the same defective tools

"What more can they do? "

Should have sacked McPoison, not accepted his resignation.

Should now withdraw all funding from LabourList until Draper removes his irrevocably-tainted presence.

Should grow up and realise the the politics of the playground are a turn-off for adult voters. Try to act like at least adolescents rather than primary-school kids!

OK then - heres what to do to sort out New Labour's problems.

1. Get a leader with some integrity - you have never had one in 12 years in office.
2. Oh - I thinks that will probably do it.

I agree George - Blair or Brown were never "Labour" men - in the sense that Harold Jim or Neil were. I have a strong suspicion that Blair was so anxious to become an M.P. if he had got a better initial offer from the Tories rather than Labour, he would have joined that party. After the '97 landslide and the 2001 I suspect a lot of young men and women in a hurry to start a political career leapt aboard the NL bandwaggon when at heart they are more right-wing and rather more in tune with the Tories.

Blair's conceit knows no bounds - he only joined the Catholic church last year, but in an interview last week he presumed to tell His Holiness the Pope where he was going wrong - he just can't help himself. I have no doubt the Holy Father is very grateful for his advice.


I suspect Jon Cruddas is Labour - REAL Labour's - hope for the future: he understands the ordinary man, is working class and represents a London working class constituency. There have been far too many Public school - Oxford - Media/Law - New Labour assembly line people clogging up the PLP. They don't understand ordinary people and their efforts to communicate with them smacks of condescention.

Exactly. It is time for the party to move on from New Labour. We have 12 months available to minimise the losses at the Gen Election. Its time for Harman or Cruddas to step up and take control. We need to get back to real Labour.

Wasn't it Benn who said, when asked what was Thatcher's legacy? "Tony Blair".

Cruddas is a little late to the show and doesn't own the ideas he's promoting but there's the ring of credibility there. I'm not especially interested in claims of a lurch to the left or seeing a stealth Thatcherite party get a free ride, but this is the space I'd rather the government occupy. It's a plan and I don't really care who gets in as long as the idea is executed well.

Im something of a non-politico but I have checked out the blog sites spoken about in the news lately.

Im afraid that the labour party has lost a considerable amount of support over this affair. Liam Burns performance yesterday was not convincing (he is not convincing).

The prime ministers refusal ever to say sorry for anything is alarming. he is obviously mixed up in this affair. to deny this is just not believable.

Im sure Brown is under all the political schemeing an honourable man but he is giving a very good imitation of being a scoundrel.

As for Mr Draper he looks scruffy, is scruffy and appears to have been caught out in this matter by a much more intelligent guy.

Trying to blame the whole situation on a hacking operation is not beleivable - could it be that at the heart of government there is someone with decency who leaked this string of e-mails ????????? hmm I wonder ??

Is Cameron going to apologise for deliberately trying to create a Tory spy network in government and taking advantage of corrosive agenda campaigning online and offline? It's one thing having a discussion that went nowhere and another thing entirely to be neck deep in the filth Cameron wades in.

If Labour is the whore with a heart of gold what does that make Cameron? The bully who smiles while he mashes your face in? The hero who hides behind abused babies? The gangster who relies on fearful whispers to stay on top? Behind the silk suits he's guilty of something and I'm beyond caring how Cameron gets taken down.

A lot of words, as usual Charles.

Just show us the emails.

The Tory admissions, and connections between the Tories and so called campaign groups and websites are public domain. One merely needs to look at that Tory tree and the apple falls into the hand. They're running themselves like some organised crime mob. What's next, sending a roast turkey to Hackney to show Cameron's a man of the people? Yeah, I saw that movie as well. The guy is a crook.

Show us your evidence.

No evidence then.

Taoist troll.

I find your playground antics don't add to the debate

Please hold up your arm, now point a finger

You will see that the other three fingers are pointing back at you, and so the insult will be visited upon you thrice

Please describe what are acceptable standards, live within those standards and then you are able to punish those which act outside those constraints

Some URLs please Charles.

Here is my advice:

Forget the Euro elections. Grass roots supporters are totally disillusioned and you wont get the vote out. The electorate are on the verge of rioting. Its game over. Labour should save its money.

LabourList needs to get rid of Draper. His continued presence is the elephant in the room. Labour also needs to confirm that McBride is gone for good. The statements at the moment seem to indicate that he has been allowed to resign his current role. That simply isn't good enough and if true the press will have a field day.

Labour itself needs to perhaps look back and re discover what the Labour movement is for and begin shaping itself into a modern progressive party with totally new blood. For sure let Gordon lose the next election but unless we want the Tories total and utter free reign after 2010 we need to start this discussion now. If we wait for another year then we can all but ensure a bitter time in opposition for a decade. We don't want to self destruct like the Tories did in 1997.

Obviously this all requires some form of self awareness and backbone - something sadly lacking in the Labour movement at the moment.

PS - Labour have lost my vote except for my local councillor.

Yep, get shot of Draper. The whole smear thing was his 'absolutely brilliant' idea.

I've posted what I think Labour Lists's focus should be, how they could improve site usability and discussion, and commented on better editing. There's plenty of books on this, a million sites that do it better and, I'm sure, way better editors who would be less distracted by a seperate career.

I'm no fan of old Labour or new Labour. I just want a government that aims high and doesn't kick people in the head. A lurch to the left or giving Cameron a free ride won't deliver that. And watching Gordon Brown clown around while the media fill the power vacuum with whatever they decide to make up that day is irritating.

I definately agree there's a lack of focused vision and backbone in Labour. The Prime Minister spends way too much time dicking with abstractions and is scared of putting himself in any physical danger. He needs to get his head out of the clouds and confront Cameron head on instead of being a daydreaming charisma bypass.

It's probably to late for Brown to go with a sense of dignity but if he doesn't someone with a clue is going to have to stand behind him and tell him what to say. He's spent so long with his head in policy and locked in an office he never really grew up. Keep him as The Great Leader but for Gods sake someone, anyone, lead.

Tick, tock. Tick, tock...

The ticking and tocking are in your head.

I think a intelligent piece by Peter Mandelson would re-focus direction. LabourList is trying to herd the cats whereas Peter brings cats to him. He knows how to stress the importance of the European Elections over this current storm in a tea-cup. Bring on Peter....

Mmmm - Mandelson eh? The word integrity seems to be missing from this solution somehow.
As for the importance of voting in the EU elections - it is very very important to vote but for Libertas the only party that wants to bring democracy to the EU.

You must be joking. The snake has had to resign twice already (or is it three times). Apart from being an utter sh*t what does he bring to New Labour apart from a recurring stench?

"A piece by Peter Mandelson", Kevin?

I think not. Not exactly the most principled figure in the NL armoury, and to be brutally frank, Brown bringing him back to government AND rewarding him with a peerage was the last straw for me where Labour is concerned, as it was, I suspect, for many others.

While your editor remains in post this is impossible. Dream on.

There are more revelations / allegations today.

Is it true that he had dinner with Brown at Chequers a few days after registering the red rag web site?

If so:-

1 why was he invited?
2 what did they discuss?
3 who else was present?

I never mess about when talking about game development, and this isn't so different. If you want to know what the future looks like, ask a designer. At the moment I'm about 3 years ahead of where Labour need to be. But, I guess, that's the difference between a single entrepreneur and a big company.

The Prime Minister can waffle all he likes about abstract theories and fairness but Cameron is playing a physical game. Brown is lost in his own world and relying on mere hope that things will turn out okay when Labour should be slamming into the Tories for their complicity and more deliberate campaigning.

By the most minimal norms and standards Labour is failing in government and Labour List. I'm fed up defending clowns and cutting people slack. If they can't raise their game in a timely fashion, I guess, I'll just have turn and tack into the Tory wind that will start blowing after the election. I won't like that either but you deal with things as they are, not how you wish them to be.

"From LabourList"......no Derek Draper byline I see...does that mean Dolly the tramp has been sacked?

Word is Draper's hiding in the Canaries - or up a canary.

Brown has got plenty of form when it comes to character assassination; so much for being a "son of the Manse".

It's posts like this that damage Labourlist! "Smear allegations"? I think most of us know it's more than an allegation.

Stop using weasel words!

Yes, Derek, I agree. Let us get to the important issue of the European Elections. I have three questions:

* - Should we vote for a party that uses such vulgar tactics as the Labour Party has been exposed for this weekend?

* - Should we vote for a party that has a leader incapable of apologising for what goes on on his watch?

* - When a web of lie, obscenity and deciet is uncovered, should we ever trust that party again?

I'm thinking the answer to all of the above is NO.

Goodbye, Labour, your time is up.

The European Elections are important and we need to focus our efforts on the specific party promises on Europe,the promise of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty would be a good starting point?

The problem isn't Labourlist being swamped by McBilge and his email buddy that can't find the 'empty folder' switch. It's the behind the scenes dimwits that can't stop lying in attempts to dig themselves out the shit they hoped to spread around about others.

Oh and the way anything approaching discussion is immediately dismissed as 'Tory Trolling' by those that think Brown has any clue about what's going on, apart from his 'prudence' tag is hitting the skids faster than his hero Mugabe's currency.

Celia, I have great respect for you and I enjoy your contributions. If you have read mine, you will know I have little time for "New Labour" and some of it's ministers who masquerade as "Labour" when they would seem to be more suited to another party.

That said, if every editor of a national newspaper was called on to resign each time they made a mistake, there would be a change of editor once a week at each paper.

I honestly feel that if the Tories were in power, and facing a difficult election in a year or less they might resort to some pretty dirty tactics, too. I do not condone what happened - it is appalling, but, sadly, the two major parties have always engaged in smear tactics and the internet makes it easier. My own sympathies lie with the Green Party now, but as I have supported Labour (as opposed to "New Labour") all my adult life, I really feel that at least Labour List ought to be given a chance of succeeding. Hopefully DD has been chastened by the weekends events (I suspect he has). Give the man a break - the world and his wife have submitted him to some pretty vile abuse on this site. He has apologised - more than once. It is becoming a sort of blood sport to be as abusive as possible: I always thought in Britain we objected to kicking a man when he's down.


In all fairness, lets move on to other topics now.

I'm not sure he has apologised Alan, any contrition is normally followed by a weaselly excuse or a further dig. He doesn't 'get it' even now. Its the sort of thing the tories became known as the Nasty Party for.

Can we have some Labour policy or ideas then please?

'Progressive' again? Purlease.

The direction that Labour should be taking is toward the likes of Johns Cruddas and McDonnell.

Honesty and integrity go a long way in the eyes of the electorate.

Those are two completely different directions. They're worlds apart. Add John Prescott and you'd have a triangular Three Johns.

It was not a point about their rankings on the spectrum. As to Prescott, he does not fulfil the criteria of honesty and integrity.

Just sack Draper and then you can move on.

It is the likes of Derick Draper and Peter Mandelson and Alistair Campbell that have tarnished New Labour, Campbells behaviour over events has been all too clear to see, Why on earth did Gordon Brown bring this individual back into the political throng again, big mistake.

New Labour are totally out of touch with the voters at the moment, the sleaze, the greed, the total lack of empathy for what the general public are going through is shocking, What do we hear from MPs when challenged on their expenses?, do we have people saying sorry?, do we have any MP saying they are taking the piss a bit too much? No, we have MPs saying we are following the rules? the rules, even though they may not being broken, they are being used to screw the last drop out of the barrel for personal greed, How can purnell honestly claim for groceries, 400 quid per month when families are struggling to feed their babies and children on the benefit's his department say is enough to live on?

You and I would not need to ask ourselves that question because we know of the day to day suffering, the politicians dont know and dont care, change in the way politicians view things must change otherwise they will always be seen as on the make, out to get what they can for themselves, new labour have to stop playing games and get rid of the sleaze, if they dont then say goodbye to your jobs, the public are fed up and think you are all a bunch of lying bastards who cannot be trusted.........................

...agreed

Got to close off an avenue that prevents the message getting out, before you can refocus people's attention.

The longer both he and Whelan hang in there, the more damage they do.

Brown has the opportunity to demonstrate strength and leadership by seizing the opportunity and dealing with this matter quickly.

Clarke is briefing that all involved should consider their positions, and I say don't give them the opportunity to resign.

Terminate their contracts with extreme prejudice, and ensure that benefits are withdrawn. That will put the necessary distance.

Unfortunately I hear that McBride has simply a new "title" which keeps him within the "fold".

The idea is bankrupt, and by hanging onto the past you are failing the future

I'd wash the site in bleach after he's gone as well - can't be too careful.

It's too late.

Labourlist is now totally contanimated.

You don't come back from something as bad as this.

Rip the whole thing down and start again.

Derek Draper must be removed and quickly.

You can't just "move on" without doing this.