By Laurie Penny / @PennyRed
Harriet Harman is right to suggest that having the top jobs in the Labour party filled exclusively by men is a terrible and outdated idea, as it would be for any political party. But her reasoning is flawed and ridiculous.
She explains her objection to "a men only team of leadership" by suggesting that "men cannot be left to run things on their own". Which is, of course, entirely untrue, not to mention lazily misandrist. Men can be left to run things on their own - indeed, they managed to run central government all by themselves for a number of centuries without setting the Commons on fire or leaving the Civil Service strewn with empty kegs, takeaway pizza-boxes and porn. What Harman totally fails to do is to make a case for why we should not be satisfied with having men in sole charge of government, even if they're competent.
We want an equal government because only an equal government can truly comprehend the interests of the people it serves. Of course, the past thirty years is littered with examples of brave male politicians who have worked tirelessly to advance women's rights - John McDonnell and Dr Evan Harris - and female politicians like Thatcher, Dorries and Widdecombe who have done anything but. But even male MPs working for women's rights have always done so in a context of solidarity with female ministers and women of power, advancing the female agenda as only they know how - consider, for example, Dr Harris' partnership with Dr Wendy Savage in countering last year's HFE bill to clamp down on abortion rights.
Her idiotic comments will, of course, be taken gleefully out of context by rightist pundits over the next few days, but later in the same interview Harman goes on to suggest, more sensibly, that "in a country where women regard themselves as equal, they are not prepared to see men running the show themselves." As Yvonne Roberts put it today:
"The idea that the individuals running an organisation ought to reflect the market that the organisation is trying to serve is increasingly common practice (ie it generates profits) in the commercial world – so why is it deemed such a revolutionary concept in politics?"
Why indeed? There are plenty of reasons to wish for a balanced government; productivity and efficiency is certainly one, which is the point that I suspect Harman was blunderingly trying to make in the first place. Genuine democracy - a government of the people, for the people, 51% of whom are women - is another.
But we need to start being brave enough to make those arguments upfront, without apologising. If we don't, we'll risk doing what Harman has just done, and making a very reasonable suggestion sound callously anti-meritocratic and misandrist.
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But let's hold with what you say: neurones are made of atoms and sub atomic particles no? So, if the human brain is the most complex phenomenon yet discovered in the universe (and show me one more complex) then the possible permutations at a purely cellular level is multiplied many times at an atomic and subatomic level.
It was a jocular remark, MB5000, and perhaps irony is something that escapes your scientific reasoning. But to say as you do that psychology - in effect the science of consciousness - is somehow only 'probationary' is just your arrant opinion. Quantum mechanics may 'do what you want', but the fact that people don't just shows a deficiency in your theory of reality.
At nearly exactly the same that Niels Bohr, Max Planck and Einstein were changing the concept of outer reality, Freud, Jung and Adler were changing the conception of the unconscious. Both sets of theories are limited, but it's only your bias that says Quantum Mechanics is more important to reality than culture phenomena such as a shift in psychology.
Out of interest, have you done any quantum mechanics, or are you just picking a term that you think is difficult? (20 years ago I was a researcher working at the extreme ends of quantum physics, and I can tell you that much of it is counter-intuitive.)
However, most of the women I came across thought I was an oddity, they were either "sorry" for me or they regarded me as somewhat "suspect", because they didn't regard looking after kids as something men should do, or should want to do.
Your characterisation of the industry of being geeky is amusing. Those "geeks" consider themselves to be experts in technology and not freaky at all (the geek term is pejorative BTW), and I suspect that this type of name-calling exhibited by you is part of the problem. Perhaps if people like you started referring to them as "skilled IT professionals" more women would want to do it?
On the other hand, a couple of decades ago medical schools tried to attract more female students and by giving the opportunity for able candidates (opportunity is always important IMO). We now have the situation where there are more female doctors than male. Personally I do not care about the genitals between the legs of my doctor, all I care is that the doctor is highly skilled (and working in the NHS, of course!) However, I should remind you that until recently junior doctors had to work extremely long hours and yet that has not put off women becoming doctors. So clearly these "long hours" in the IT industry (which is not normal over the industry, programming is a 9-5 job like any other white collar job) cannot be the reason why there are so few women. The fact that more doctors are women is a curiosity, nothing more, but would you say that medical schools should take action if the numbers of women doctors exceed the proportion of women in society? No, me neither, I just want a skilled doctor treating me, just as I want a skilled programmer to write the software that I use.
we have to be represented by a truly balanced cross section of the populace
Can you explain this? Are you saying that the colour of one's skin or the genitals between their legs determines what's in their heads? Are you saying that only someone with children can make sensible choices about children?
As a white, straight man I can still see that racism, sexism and homophobia are wrong and I am rather insulted by the implication that you think that I don't.
It is opportunity that is important, not quotas.
What a storm in a teacup.
Much Ado About Nothing.
Have you ever recruited in the real world for a professional role? I do and it is often the case that there are more male applicants than female. However I would not want to be told that I had to interview a quota of females because I interview the best candidates regardless of their gender.
In 2003 I attended an assessment day and out of the 22 people there only one was male. I was the last 'man' standing at the end of the tough day and was duly appointed.
I remember the assessor had difficulties at one 'de-selection' break as the man could not understand why he had been 'de-selected' and started shouting at the recruiter that she was being sexist. She made it clear that she was after the best person for the role for her client, a global pharma.
The number of neurones and possible connections are not an excuse for sloppy reasoning and inconsistent application of the scientific method.
I'm still not sure what you mean by "tame" other than the fact that quantum mechanics is reliable and does what we want. Did you actually think that comparing psychology to a theory so powerful that it's has changed the very definition of "reality" was going to turn out well?
Quantum Physics looks tame compared to psychology.
Ms Penny's way or working is generally to adopt a position based upon personal views and bias then look for anything to back it up and try to trash anything that undermines it even if it is a wealth of scientific research.
Given the amount of research on intelligence distribution across varous groupings her best bet was always to try to denigrate the scientific methodolgy as a whole rather than individual research on a piece by piece basis.
Whether a difference in population distributions about the mean for intelligence in men compared to women exists or not, Ms Penny has to deny it else a lot of her feminist ideology comes crashing down.
That fact means her contributions are pretty valueless.
It has a closer relationship to voodoo.
The definition of psychology as a science is still in it's probationary period as far as I'm concerned. There are some people doing great work, but there are some who play a little fast and loose with the scientific method.
That there is different distribution curve for IQ test scores for the male and female populations is a measurable fact. Why this difference exists, whether it's nature, nurture or a mix of both, whether or not it can be changed are all up for debate. The controversy surrounding The Bell Curve was due to their analysis, not the underlying data.
An individual getting a high IQ score is not a guarantee of success in any particular area any more than getting a university degree guarantees you a great job (I'm living proof of both). Looking at the population as a whole, people with high IQs tend to do better in their particular fields but there are so many other factors at play that you can't use it as the sole factor in determining candidates for a job.
When I wrote "progressive feminist scientist" I was taking the mickey. A scientist - feminist, misogynist or otherwise - must start with the data and explain it not start with a policy and look for data to support it.
Or peer reviewed research from a large number of reputable highly qualified scientists and institutions.
Which to believe?
Sorry Ms Penny but you lose hands down.
The assumptions you denigrate are perfectly acceptable to me and I suspect would be to you if they resulted in research that fitted your narrow feminist view of the world.
I also find that IQ or intellect in general is a pretty good marker for performance in business, far more than whether they've read a few feminist hand outs.
Yes, I learnt a long time ago to be wary of assumptions in science. When I studied psychology we did some work on the fallability of IQ tests and thier cultural bias. Intelligence is far more complex (imagery, emotional, imaginative etc, then a linear ordered logical format).
When we examine the works of great genius we also find that the very essence of thier genius was that they thought outside of linear patters on tangents of thier own. Though of course some were also very linear.
The ability to communicate with people, and the ability to empathise, are of equal or greater importance - I'm sure there are scientific studies to show that women outperform men in these areas.
As ever, the right brings as much selective, quasi-scientific nonsense as the left to cloud the basic, simple principle of choosing the best person for the job.
All of that data stems from the book 'The Bell Curve' and subsequent studies. All of those studies are flawed in their appropriation of the scientific method because of the erroneous assumptions they make.
Much of the criticism of The Bell Curve hypothesis has focused on potential flaws in the basic assumptions made at the beginning of the book. William J. Matthews and Stephen Jay Gould list four basic assumptions of The Bell Curve:
1. Intelligence must be reducible to a single number.
2. Intelligence must be capable of rank ordering people in a linear order.
3. Intelligence must be primarily genetically based.
4. Intelligence must be essentially immutable.
According to Gould, if any of these premises are false, then their entire argument disintegrates (Gould, 1994).[9] Similarly, in "Science" in the service of Racism, C. Loring Brace writes that The Bell Curve makes six basic assumptions at the beginning of the book:
1. Human Cognitive ability is a single general entity, depictable as a single number.
2. Cognitive ability has a heritability of between 40 and 80 percent and is therefore primarily genetically based.
3. IQ is essentially immutable, fixed over the course of a life span.
4. IQ tests measure how "smart" or "intelligent" people are and are capable of rank ordering people in a linear order.
5. IQ tests can measure this accurately.
6. IQ tests are not biased with regard to race ethnic group or socioeconomic status.
To which I'd add a further erroneous assumption:
1.IQ is a subtle and accurate predictor of someone's ability to perform well in business, politics or any other high-end profession.
As I've said before, that's all unscientific rubbish.
In India, where the industry is more realistically structured despite the other disadvantages women face in the country, almost 30% of the IT workforce is female, compared to 9% in the UK. That's why we're increasingly importing workers from India to fill the massive skills deficit the IT industry is racking up because of its unwillingness to change.
By taking out only 6 per cent of all pupils (those who can pay and struggle to meet the fees because they believe in education) private schools should be getting the highest results, regardless of the education they provide.
I know plenty of private schools. Some are excellent, some are pretty bad. The value they add is fairly random though, and as for 'bangs for your buck', I'd say a lot of state schools (though surely not all) do as well as many private schools.
good phrase
There has to be a way I can get this into a conversation at work with the yanks. They have a completely different understanding of what mentalist means.
re: Harriet Harman. A phrase does come to mind, but it'll upset the thought police.
They generally have much smaller class sizes so the kids get more one-on-one time with the teacher during a lesson. Any state comprehensive teacher will tell you that if you cut their class size in half, they'll be able to give more individualised support to each student.
Guy M is really Hyacinth Bucket.
Are your girls studying "advanced needlework" by any chance, Guy?
I think you've overlooked
the fact that socioligy isn't a real
science, especially when they almost never take into
account cultural factors in the countries the studies are made in.
I agree about Johnson, I do not know who put him up to the id card stunt(everything I've seen about him so far suggests he would not have done that voluntarily) nor why he agreed to do it. A genuine howler for the 'floating voter' like me.
I only have the BSc and MSc but they're both in physics - so I'm curious as to what the exchange rate is?
Before you start playing qualification top-trumps, have a look at the encarta article he linked - written by the PhD editor of the Intelligence journal.
I bet mine is bigger than yours! And I'm not talking about academic credentials, sport! Man, do you sound thoroughly "red brick" or what?
Get over yourself!
"The distribution of intelligence around the mean seems to indicate that there are more very clever men than very clever women "
Guy has made a little video explaining it to us all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w
Whatever their origins genealogically I think your policy of staying away from children as much as possible is as enlightened as it is merciful... from their point of view of course.
(And, if you are so academically gifted why is your grammar, syntax and spelling so atrocious at times? Do you get dyslexic when your blood is up, your lips are pursed, your nostrils are flared and you're in full rant? Just curious psychiatrically about your exhibition of myriad psychopathologies.)
"and am about to communicate that I wish to removed from the approved list."
Even Smith square breathes a sigh of relief.....
I suspect even Cameron and his little gang of Etonians are not right wing enough for Guy. Double strength Tebbitt or nothing!
She also says that the film makes him out to be more of a playboy than he actually was so I wonder how much of her appearing to be window dressing is the result of glamming up the situation in general.
e
lp
But thanks for responding.
Cell numbers: men have 4% more brain cells than women, and about 100 grams more of brain tissue.
Cellular connections: even though a man seems to have more brain cells, it is reported that women have more dendritic connections between brain cells.
You can read the article here: http://www.doctorhugo.org/brain4.html
However as a mother and a working professional female I would not wish to be appointed to a role on my sex but on merit everytime. When I recruit I appoint on capabilities/competencies/technical expertise/customer focus and experience it would be totally wrong to appoint on sex. It should always come down to, Is this person the best person for the job?
45% of mothers work full time. So the "majority" that doesn't isn't particularly large.
Of that 45% how many work unwillingly because they have to to meet family outgoings? Of the 55% how many would love to work but feel guilty leaving the kids or can't find the childcare?
Your daughter's welcome to find it patronising, but I don't think it's a real problem.
Who am I (or you) to say she's wrong?
Yes - look at any family outside of the middle class.
It's really making me laugh - I am neither Tory nor Labour, but it's always fun to watch the "diversity" party deal with Guy's unarguable logic!
Peter - "Emotional intelligence, a capacity to build and sustain teams, multi task and empathise with customers" - Yes these are all skills which are very useful in customer service, administration, low-scale team management etc. Have you ever run a business Peter? Are these skills really that important? I will give the info to a construction company down the road, I'm sure they'll be putting a woman in charge straight away.
Seems to me these skills are much more important to motherhood than business
The last time I looked at a female run office, the atmosphere was decidedly gossipy, childish and vindictive for certain members of the team. Again, can't give you a stat or graph to plot this, but I would refer to the "bloody obvious" mentioned earlier.
I would add to your list - personal drive to success
- Self reliance
- Assertion
- Emotional stability
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up to much room.
I think we are out of room
Harman is wrong is wrong to denigrate men and to try to enforce equality of numbers in men and women in professions as it ignores some underlying facts:
1 Mean intelligence is the same but distribution differs
2 Women are far more likely to take career breaks or leave careers to rear children
3 Some academic subjects and some professions appeal to men more, some to women more.
Given this equality in representation across any given profession is a coarse and simplistic goal to aim for.
Also, if you're going to argue science with two science grads, get your terminology right. It's not "mean distribution", the mean and distribution are two different things and you're confusing them.
Outstanding observation.
The issues of intelligence distribution, women and childrearing and professions that differ in appeal to men and women all count as significant underlying causes of why equality of numbers across all professions is unrealistic.
If you want a top level debate with no understanding of underlying causes then fine this debate was a distraction. If you want a debate that includes reasons for the current situation then you need those underlying causes.
Your choice though.
No I haven't and I think others are struggling with it too.
You can only go onn performance in early years which indicates a difference.
Have a nice day.
I bid you good day sir.
Out of interest, Gabe what/where is "your" science and does "your" scientific method really allow the refutation of empirical evidence with youtube clips?
Children are not born all with similar levels of intelligence.
Some children are born more likely to be very clever some aren't. Just as some are born good at sport and others aren't.
But anyway I care not, my kids are clever and at grammar school, what other kids do or don't do is the concern of their parents not mine.
I really think you are flogging a fetid corpse here.
Children's development and progression at school has far more to do with many other factors than inherent "IQ".
Parental involvement in child development, social activities, access to learning aids, structure of home life.
There's four and I'm sure there are many others.
Many, many, many variables.
In terms of gender differences, how the male and female brains solve problem is proven to be very different.
Male spatial awareness is more pronounced is one example. Female ability at multi-tasking is well known.
However, to suggest that men get the jobs requiring intelligence because of an inherent inbuilt ability simply isn't true.
Look in any serious high-science field - there are women just as good as any man and in some fields, they are the eminent or amongst the most eminent.
Give it up, it just looks a bit, well, silly.
As for differing educational achievements and intelligence within children from the same families, lot's of reasons can be given -
1. Different effort from each child.
2. Different treatment by the parents.
3. Different experiences by the children. As an example, my brother was 3 years older then me but I used to take part when he did his homework and so I had a head start when I went to school (nurture not nature).
4. Any pyschologist will tell you that there is vastly different life experiences for first and second children which can account for educational difference.
Seems we're running out of space here so let me repeat my main point -
In the vast majority of cases, whatever inherent intelligence there may or may not be is overwhelmingly negated by a childs education.
As far as I'm aware there is no scientific research to show that skin colour (or more importantly race) has any effect on intelligence.
So faced with being unwilling to deal with the scientific research regarding population distributions about the mean for intelligence you try to insinuate I'm racist?
Thanks for losing all moral standing in this debate.
All children are born with equal or near equal intelligence and only the variation in education impacts upon academic achievement?
Basically you argue that nature is minimal as a impact and it is all nuture?
Could you explain then differing educational achievements and intelligence within children from the same families?
Honestly the point you are arguing is retarded in itself.
Asserting that it is innate intelligence without being able to measure the starting point - IQ at birth - is just that, an assertion and nothing more.
If you paid a bit more attention you'd have noticed that Mark labels all people on benefits as "scrounging off the state" which is not only a thoroughly moronic position to take, it's also personally offensive given that I and most of my friends have been unemployed at some point.
When I was on benefits I did everything I could to find a job because being on benefits sucks and I didn't want to be there. It's not a free ride, it's a deeply humiliating experience and threatening to take away the money I needed for food had absolutely no effect on my ability or inclination to get a job. After leaving university, I spent 4 years bouncing between temping and benefits because I was underexperienced for the graduate jobs and overqualified for everything else and when I tried to make a genuine claim - "Hi, I've got a job lined up for two weeks from now, but I have no food to eat until then" - I got treated like I was stealing despite the fact that money was taken from my pay in tax for the express reason of providing a safety net for the times when there was no work.
As for buying votes, if someone's too lazy to work, do you really think they'll tear themselves away from the Jeremy Kyle show for long enough to go and vote?
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to argue here?
People differ in intelligence and those differences become evident throuh a school career.
Streaming and setting often begins at 11 even in comprehensives.
To argue otherwise is plain dumb.
I note you didn't reply to the scientific research I listed.
I'll say again for you:
There is no difference in average male and female intelligence but male distribution about the mean is more widely spread with a heavier population grouping at either end.
Deal with the science or come across as a lightweight Gabe.
Try reading a bit of history before you start ridiculing others' ignorance. This is all perfectly well documented.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_4tSidyFtA
An individual with an average IQ of 100 is not going to become a nobel winning theoretical mathmatician.
You can be clever and have a good education, you can be clever and have a bad education. The fact remains though that you are clever.
Education can vary, the biogical make up you are born with is pretty much fixed.
Thankfully I never really meet people like you in business. Can I conclude you work(ed) in the public sector in some way?
No, education does.
At the age of 10 it is perfectly clear that some children will not end up being Nobel winning physicists.
Innate intelligence provides the scope of achivement in acadmeic endevour.
I know there are those on the left who would like to argue almost anyone can get a degree or PhD and there is no significant difference in intelligence between people only circumstance but I'm afraid that clearly isn't the case.
How can you measure innate biological intelligence because once the sprog is out of the womb, everything else is education.
So Dr. Guy, how do you IQ test a new born baby to determine their intelligence?
Why don't you tell Stephen Fry that you think his swearing demonstrates a limited vocabulary and a cognitive deficiency?
He'll probably tell you to f*** off.
Easily done though. We could do with some more positive articles like the ideas one we had last week, there was very little in the way of personal attacks or picking people up on spelling etc. and it did have some surprisingly good ideas on it. Might keep us all on track a bit more, what do you think?
a troll is someone whose primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Case closed.
So no, not 'simple' at all. And before you spend your days believing this is a Labour problem, they may well not have tackled the problem effectively, but there has never been 100% employment in this country even before the creation of the Welfare State.
It may suit you to tag everyone who claims benefits due to their current employment prospects being dire as 'scroungers', but the system is there to help those who come out of employment and it is a system that a good number who now have to use it have paid into for a considerable amount of time.
And what does the Muslim religion got to do with the price of fish? Is every Muslim now an enemy of the country then Chloe?
Bizarre how people find infinite amounts of time to pick up on the use of a term or a word, but steer well away from answering questions here, generally I mean. The original comment was about politicians and their potential for putting people off entering politics, but its much more interesting to imply I'm cut from the same cloth as Derek Draper isn't it?
Anything else you want to pick me up on? I'm sure some school children use some other words I use on a regular basis in a derogatory manner without my prior knowledge, so there must be a sea of comments that you can gradually pick your way through. I'll probably jump from a Derek Draper clone to a Jim Davidson clone and by the end of the day be a clone of Bernard Manning.
Here it is..
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
I stayed on topic because I asked you if you had to swear to make your point. I even stayed on topic with your reply.
The fact you have gone off topic, made another personal attack and want to go even further off topic - perhaps you need to print out this trolling definition and stick it close to your monitor.
Also, the use of BS is inflammatory which if you look at moderation policy....
Incidentally, when I make a mistake, I apologise quickly and without condition.
Swearing usually always a mistake, a social faux-pas and what do you do?
In the spirit of
not feeding the trolls; I shall stop.
It's interesting that you assume that to be a problem with the film rather than an illustration of the attitudes towards and roles of women during the time period. Here are a few quotes from Caroline Cushing herself on what she thought of the film.
"I had dinner with David every night, and the birthday party was quite, quite accurate. There wasn’t a ton of detail in the movie you know, so it was fair enough. I don’t think I’d have gotten him the cheeseburger though. I said to him recently, I’ll get you one, one of these days!"
"All the sets and the costumes and the portrayal of the period and everyone debating was very accurate. I met with the costume designer and he had spent a lot of time making sure my character had nice clothes, and you know they did a lot of research and they did a really good job."
"Of course, I wasn’t part of the interviewing, I made sandwiches."
"So in that I’m not the least bit fussed about the clothes I wear in the movie, or the handbags I carry. I never would have worn a strapless dress to meet Nixon, that’s for sure. But in the end they did a really god job, so I don’t have any issues at all."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-12-06/dating-david-frost/
So she believes, on the whole, it was a fairly accurate representation. Maybe you'd have been happier if they'd taken a few more liberties and had Nixon interviewed by Davina Frost.
You can't take a child born with mental health problems and turn them into a PhD nuclear physicist.
You can take a clever child and give them the education to allow them to be that nuclear physicist.
Education can only look to allow a child to reach their inate potential.
On the subject of trolls, I've actually written about this, and thread diversion over spelling/swearing is classic 'interference'.
And I need not remind you, Mike, of that classic trolling technique - ad personam attacks on real identities, or trying to 'out' anonymous contributors.
You achieved a double whammy on that a few weeks ago. Shall I post the link where you consistently accused Anti Tory Troll of being me?
But what if the good male candidates for primary school teaching were the good IT candidates? Wouldn't the standard in IT drop?
And what if the good female IT candidates were the good female Primary School teachers, wouldn't the standard of teaching drop?
Don't you think it would be best to accpet the rather obvious reality that some professions appeal to women more than men and vice versa?
Benefits keep people in poverty, employment gets them out.
Simple.
If Labour keeps buying the votes of chronic lazy welfare scroungers, this country will end up bankrupt. Anybody who wants to see that is an enemy of this country, bit like your Islamist friends eh?
http://www.heretical.com/toa/toa-s14a.html
The politics of "heretical.com" are not to my liking but the research is in line with lots of other research
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16971478
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761570026__24/Intelligence.html
The last link states:
"There appear to be no substantial differences between men and women in average IQ. But the distribution of IQ scores is slightly different for men than for women. Men tend to be more heavily represented at the extremes of the IQ distribution. Men are affected by mental retardation more frequently than are women, and they also outnumber women at very high levels of measured intelligence. Women’s scores are more closely clustered around the mean"
There are others
Schools seek to maximise the results a child intelligence can produce. Private schools seem to do it better than many state schools.
Next you'll be telling me that because its snows still, global warming must be a myth.
Weather and Climate
Intelligence and Education
See the difference?
By the way, it's swearing, not robust language.
On the subject of revisionism.
Please look up the word "Troll" in terms of internet debate as I really doubt the revisionist powers of the left are capable of re-defining what it means.
Thank you.
It's a term used by schoolchildren to describe those handicapped kids who take the bus to a special school in the mornings.
Very cruel IMHO, though not surprising to read it from the likes of Draper et al.
PRIVATE SCHOOLS A WASTE OF MONEY SAYS TORY
Intelligence is biological luck and nothing more
That'll save them a few quid :)
That's a load of twoddle basically. What is 'equally available'?
I interview a lot, it's part of my job. 80% of the candidates are men.
That's not equally available?
Or are you suggesting that until a woman joins an IT related degree course then another man can't? What about this whole meritocracy thing that LL talk about? You are suggesting more positive discrimination.
That'll work, I can see Universities jumping for joy for that one.
I still adhere to the biological situation of the last few million years of female child rearing and male provision of resources.
My wife has a maternal instinct I don't. She does what she is good at, I do what I'm good at. We complement each other without any PC nonsense getting in the way.
But since you are intent on pursuing this Mike, I will repeat: I find your apologetics for both the massacre of Jews this weekend (""the Left are the real monsters"), and the BNP in the past ("It's not the BNP's fault... the Left are to blame") much more offensive.
Education I can do something about, hence the grammar school and tutors.
It's the nature/nurture debate Alex
Edit: Actually reading how I use it, it is belittling and derogatory. I mean it to mean someone is idiotic and not fit for purpose, that pretty much fits with being quite insulting.
I agree that we need to be represented by more balanced representation. Why then is it that it is invariably only gender mentioned in relation to this goal? For me I simply ask the questions, what percentage of the electorate have graduated from Oxbridge and what percentage of MPs have graduated from these institutions?
Colin
Observe, hypothesize and then experiment? A multi-tasking woman could have done all three at once!
EQ is a wishy washy metric that appeals to HR departments but not to front end business departments as much as intelligence and it's application.
I would not prefer to employ a high EQ, gets on with everybody but has an average IQ individual instead of a high IQ individual with an acceptable EQ.
That's a business reality and I have to say in politics it should be an even bigger reality. I don't want government ministers to be able to get on with everyone at the expense of being clever and able enough to do the job. I would accept a "difficult" personality in government if they were clever enough to be very effective.
By the way just saying "demolishing your argument" doesn't convince me or anyone else. It's for your own benefit and nothing more.
My jaw just dropped on the floor.
In practice, arguing with people who resort to swearing and loss of control usually indicates defeat.
Plus it's also bad mannered.
You are debating male v female IQ?
Well, swearing certainly puts the ladies up on the IQ front where you are concerned.
All I can do is help my girls within the existing system, hence "I don't care either way" as I have no control and I generally try not to worry about things where I have no control.
Did I mention my eldest girl in any other terms than evidence that I have experience of intelligent girls? In direct response to your "you cannot know what it feels like to be a bright girl".
My girls intelligence is not something I am responsible for, it is biological luck nothing more.
As for your "points I made about the bell curve of male IQ", you sought to focus o EQ traits to cover the difference in IQ distribution. Be honest now for once.
Thanks
What's the point of having kids if you can't be around?
I actually didn't see an argument made by Mike Thomas about male or female IQ. All he said was that he found 'bullshit' deeply offensive, that was the whole sum of it. Providing different definitions of offensive is a legitimate response IMHO.
I'm out of politics and I don't have to sit anymore exams.
I've left politics permanently. Largely due to not wanting to represent the public in any way, shape or form and partly due to being able to earn more money for less hours in business.
I would agree with you that I don't think my standpoints are endorsed by my party under Cameron but that the middle classes who have felt under attack for some time would largely agree with me.
I suspect once Cameron gets in the middle class support will be disappointed over time, much as New Labour has angered their core support.
"That's pretty rich from the guy who said..."
A real schoolboy line.
I certanly wouldn't and I suggest a large % of men wouldn't either.
I'm just honestly interested that central Conservative Office would approve you as a candidate if you preach some of the stuff you've said here, and also about class - I recall you telling me a while back that you thought Marx was right and society was based on a power struggle between middle and working/underclasses. You probably won't remember, but I didn't agree with you on that, but you know, I respect your right to that opinion and all that. As it happens I acknowledge that you are probably more in tune with what large swatches of the Conservative-voting middle classes believe and feel.
It's just that I was interested that under Cameron the party would endorse your opinions, especially on the class war and working mothers. It was the central office approved list?
That is a sickening thing to read, Guy.
The point I have repeatedly made is that there IS NO DIFFERENCE AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN.
The research points to a different distribution around said mean. It is a point that comes up again and again in research and good well founded research at that as well.
I see it is not a comfortable thing for you to have to confront, but it's there whether you like it or not.
The funny thing is you seem appy to argue for a difference in EQ as it favours women and very angry at the evidence of a difference in distribution of IQ. That rather sums up the bias you show in so many of your posts.
I know a little about bright girls as a result.
She is of the same view that she would prefer a one off winnner takes all exam, but accepts most of her classmates at the Girls grammar wold hate it (it's been discussed).
Educational research shows a constant coursework structure doesnt appeal to boys as much as a last minute crammer exam.
Idon't care either way, I have my qualifications. But I do take offence to perfectly good research being dumped upon merely because it doesn't suit a political position.
This use and abuse of science has been typical New Labour over the last 12 years.
Compared to ripe language, that is really offensive.
I am not prepared to enter further into discussion over personal circumstances here.
As for my views on differences on distribution around the mean in terms of intelligence for men or women, I am more than happy for anyone of any party to take issue with the science.
The point is not that men or women are more intelligent than the other group. All the evidence shows that they are not. The research points to a different population distribution about the mean i.e. more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women.
Perhaps you could address the science?
Would you like to try and encourage women to work in IT?
This government has tried, the last government tried, private industry has tried. There has been 20 years of trying.
So far, very little change. Perhaps women find technology dull and unexciting, who knows? It is not for the sake of not trying.
Harman's words are not going to make a shred of difference except get the backs up of people trying to level things up and reinforce the prejudices in others.
I consider that counter-productive.
My apologies for being born male too by the way.
Given the patronising attitudes to female intelligence which are still dominant in so many parts of the UK, it is amazing how many girls still out perform boys, despite the patronising attitudes of the parents, or the weak role models in society.
As a case in point, I was watching Frost/Nixon with my 16 year old daughter only last night. It wasn't left wing feminism that made us notice that this otherwise excellent film was marred by the single female lead who was pure window dressing: nice dresses, a provider of drinks and burgers, and no role of her own.
Whatever you say, you cannot know what it feels like to be a bright girl when such images are still prevalent. That you have to explain female success by some kind of gaming of the system is the typical rejoinder of the the loser.
I actually agree, however, that the biggest problem is the relative exclusion of boys and their lack of success in the education system. Most of this is attributable to the decline of manual labour and semi skilled jobs, and an employment system that actually favours part time and flexible work, which especially suits women who want to combine work with childcare.
Of course there are some women who want to stay at home with their kids, though lets not kid ourselves that the 20th century image of the housewife, alone with her domestic appliances, is the natural order of things. It's a very recent invention - most women were working up until the mid 20th century, mainly in service.
Oh they usually aren't our kids in the eyes of the State. They certainly aren't when it comes to obtaining custody when it comes to divorce, however, we do end up paying for them.
Perhaps if the State allowed things like transferable income tax allowances, made home working easier, enforced flexible working opportunities by removing the 'get-out' clauses for employers.
Maybe get really radical and copy ideas from Europe, offices with day care and nursery creches and massively subsided childcare.
Perhaps then I could work from home a bit more or work a bit less and look after the nippers and generally see more of them.
Men have little choice. We get two weeks paternity leave, women get up to a year.
I'd love some equality because as I see it; there's is precise little of it. Taking right from one and giving to the other is not equality.
The numbers on politics courses indicate that more men than women are interested in taking a politics degree.
In terms of Geography, more women apply for Human Geograpy based degrees than apply for Physical Geography. Does that tell us anything negative about men or women or that there is a simple difference in interest in that subject.
It is in the interest of the left wing feminists to argue that there is absolutely no difference between men or women whe research after research shows that there are indeed subtle differences.
Why is choosing to bring up children seen to be a negative thing?
Do you honestly believe that as many men as women want to give up careers to bring up children?
Do you honestly beleive that millenia of biological development can be put aside as an irrelevance just because it doesn't suit your current political views?
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16971478
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761570026__24/Intelligence.html
The last link states:
"There appear to be no substantial differences between men and women in average IQ. But the distribution of IQ scores is slightly different for men than for women. Men tend to be more heavily represented at the extremes of the IQ distribution. Men are affected by mental retardation more frequently than are women, and they also outnumber women at very high levels of measured intelligence. Women’s scores are more closely clustered around the mean"
I'm a trained scientist Gabe. I read the research, look at it's basis and accept the findings if it's good science whether I like the conclusion or not.
I currently support the theory of climate change being man made but I'm totally open to future research showing we've got it wrong.
There is study after study that supports the variation of distribution about the mean in terms of intelligence for men and women.
Please do feel free to refute this science if you can.
As I said before, I'm not trying to pick a fight, just curious.
"Numerous studies have shown..."
Numerous studies have also shown that numerous studies deviate from normal and reasonable understanding by a large margin. 72% of all statistics are made up on the spot, and the increased range of so called male intelligence (if proven) would not affect the mean.
Actually, most the variation can be accounted for by the propensity of the 'male brain' to tend towards system building at the cost of social skills and empathy. Hence the higher number of male mathematicians and male sociopaths.
But this doesn't affect the normal distribution of IQ (which by this count actually favours women) and fails to take into account the main factors behind business success. IQ is a small part of that. Emotional intelligence, a capacity to build and sustain teams, multi task and empathise with customers are probably just as important: qualities at which women tend to excel rather better than men.
Numerous studies have shown the variation about the mean in terms of intelligence differs in men and women.
The overall result is the same i.e. men and women have equal intelligence as a group but men have more group members at the extremes of the population distribution.
This is not a political or sociological point to be argued from a personal perspective, this is a tested reality.
I would suggest you look at this reality and adopt a position or argument around it. Alternatively though you could pretend it doesn't exist as it doesn't fit your predefined view of the world.
Its so fustrating being a female party member who has to continually observe certain female cabinet memebers take two steps back for women's advancement every time they open their mouths (Caroline Flint throwing her toys out of the pram after the European elections, anyone?) The women in the cabinet need to concentrate on doing what's best for the party rather than going on about 'Equality and Diversity' when there's a million and one more important issues that need to be discussed and a coherent voice heard on. Or as Mr Prescott so eloquently put it "stop complaining and get campaigning"
'Intelligence is more closely clustered around the mean in women than men. Therefore there are more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women.'
Increasingly, this is what your comments remind me of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDzTyOJSe-Y
Study after study has found that girls prefer the coursework option and boys the final exam. I suggest that if you revert back to the fina exam system the gap would amazingly close.
On top of this add the feminisation of the education system. The vast majority of teachers are female, typical "boy" behaviour is frowned upon, competitive sport has been undermined by wooly left wing "every one is a winner thinking" and the sale of playing fields.
School at the moment is not totally fit for purpose for boys.
As fot the rest of the nonsense you right, you don't get the point of a large number of women not wanting to have children and then rush back to work asap. For many women once they have kids they WANT to stay with them. It's a biological maternal instinct and to argue it doesn't exist is to be about as naive biologically as can be.
Seriously use that brain of yours occasionally rather than parroting the same old tired left wing feminist dogma.
Women often choose to drop careers to have children, men generally don't
Intelligence is more closely clustered around the mean in women than men. Therefore there are more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women. Given that you'd expect a slightly higher % of men at the top of professions
As someone else pointed out there are very few women enrolled on politics degrees at university which leads to the conclusion that it's likely that there will be more politicians who are male than female. In the same way as there are far more teachers who are female etc.
You can't take every profession and career and expect or impose a straight 51:49 split. It's a bonkers way of thinking and only appeals to the left who are fixated with equality of end result rather than of opportunity.
In my constituency there is no barrier to women holding office or seeking election. Yet few do, That's their choice and seeking to impose equality of numbers holding office when there isn't equality of interest or desire is plain stupid.
Ground zero and everyone re-applying for everything might move us towards equality quicker than any Harmanesque tinkering. Is that what they want?
Clearly under meritocracy we'd have 51% women in every sphere of office and power and overpayment. Or are the frit "merit" boys saying 15% is your lot, because by-and-large you women are inferior?
'The distribution of intelligence around the mean seems to indicate that there are more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women'
and
'I like the way the left never allows the blatantly bloody obvious to cloud their mind'
is like being involuntarily beamed into an episode of the Office, so sit opposite Gareth. It's hugely embarrassing to read.
I like the way that with Tory activists, they're fine to say stuff like, 'Please look into a substance called testosterone if you want to understand what drives people to success, or to try to succeed' until anyone brings up Thatcher.
I like the way the left never allows the blatantly bloody obvious to cloud their mind.
The Right do not define people by what they are, but by what they do. It reminds me of that 1979 election poster. A man stood there with the caption "Labour say he's Black. We say he's British" so true.
Do you actually have any stats to back any of this wild generalisation up?
Under Harriet - the Communist-Marxist-Lenist 'Stalinesque' Monty Python Wing of the Labour Party lives!! Hip, Hip Oorah!!
This was a product from 19th century England leftover to modern times - if you look to different cultures in the world today outside of the male-dominated west, you will see a range of modern societies with women at the forefront, where men stay at home to look after children just as often as women.
"19th Century" - don't make me laugh. It's only since the 60s in the western world where women have ever had a different option!
...and, even if you don't personally agree with it, or endorse it, Guy is absolutely right. The majority of women see the family as a more worthwhile calling than business.
Please look into a substance called testosterone if you want to understand what drives people to success, or to try to succeed.
With regard to the overtaking of exam results.....what happens if you exclude everything except the really important and difficult subjects which ensured buildings stay up, and we don't all die before we're 40 like Maths and science? You and I both know that many of these advances by girls are in things like media studies, administration and childcare. Also, look at the top 10% of all results and see if there is a bias.
Men and women have scientifically different bodies and vastly different brains, which lead to different behavior.
Here are a list of names you might like to call me in absence of a point to argue back:
- 19th Century misogynist
- Sexist
- Daily Mail reader
- Daily Express reader
- outdated
etc etc
Is she in two minds about it?
Mark Smith "
Common by name, common by nature.
If people are seriously ill or disabled?. And there are well over 2 MILLION able-bodied people unemployed?.... and unemployment is likely to rise for the next year or so?
Wake up at the back there, Mark!
Seriously, hasn't anyone cottoned on yet? Guy's a comedy parody. It's a set up. He'll soon have his own fringe show based on his experiences imitating a Tory on LL.
Humans have been arguing with nature for many millenia. Hence our life expectancy has risen from around 35 years to 80 years in a century.
But since you're still living in the 19th Century, Guy, you probably failed to notice this.
Also, you might have missed the bit when girls started overtaking boys in academic results - GCSE, A Level and now Degrees. There are more women millionaires in their 30s too, because though not represented well in the macho world of the corporate boardroom, they do better than men at start ups.
Pregnancy requires only a few months off work, and good childcare provision. This can be shared among parents, and working hours can be made more flexible to allow both parents more time with their children.
How about that for arguing with nature (or indeed blustering buffoons)?
What is this, 1975?
That's because THEY ARE anti-male, in particular anti white male.
Harpyperson is a sexist and a racist.
I like the term window licking mentalist, it conjures up something different to everyone who reads it.
Not sure why you'd think I was anything to do with Derek Draper because of one comment though, fuzzy logic there.
Are you Draper in disguise, Dewison?
The Tories probably cannot believe their luck; Harman diminishes the Labour Party's chances of success at the next election by much more than any of their own ranks could hope to.
I doubt that her views will drive pro-Labour sentiment down further but, they sure as hell will not increase support.
From my point of view Harriot, carry on saying this stuff and, next year you will be history. But, please do yourself a favour and show the judgement worthy of one of the top two in Government.
There's obviously a genuine problem with MPs being almost exclusively white males, but why is it always the worst examples of female MPs making the noise about it? Harman couldn't be less help if she tried.
I would say that cabinet representation is by definition (or it was until Brown started appointing Lords left right and centre) dependent on MP representation.
Whichever way you look at it there will always be more men than women in the higher echelons of business and politics etc. due to motherhood. Most men do not want to take long periods off for childcare whereas a lot of women do want to. You can't really argue with nature.
Certainly from my wife and my perspective, she's a science grad in business who chose to take a career break to be with the children, I'm a science grad in business who was not interested in taking a career break to be with the children. I suggest that example is mirrored a lot in society. It has obvious implications on the higher positions in society.
Mind you, men still go into politics even though they are given examples every day of male politicians being complete window licking mentalists, so maybe you're right.
Where was she after the local elections, putting forward the names of good female politicians who could be of benefit to the cabinet? Or trying her best to sound positive about GB and hoping she kept her job?
Timing is everything and if Harriet Harman wanted to use this week for anything, she could have used it to present some vision for the electorate rather than looking towards the careers of politicians. Doesn't she realise that Labour is fighting for its political life because they have become distant with the electorate?
Her time on this occassion getting out and about, speaking face to face with the electorate and finding out where Labour are going wrong. Then there might be an outside chance of another Labour government in the near future so she can ensure women are represented correctly in positions.
Insisting that the Leader and Deputy Leader should be a man and a woman at all times is stupid though. Those two positions need to be filled by people who can communicate and inspire, something Harriet Harman finds very difficult by the looks of things.
I want someone that does the role, has a positive attitude and does their job well.
Anything else is utterly superfluous.
I work into a very male dominated industry and the general stereotype is 'girls don't do geek'. I have done outreach work into schools to encourage boys as well as girls into technology to try and even the gender balance up.
Hearing Harman's remarks I'll take them at face value, shrug my shoulders and carry on. They are very unhelpful especially to us chaps who are trying to even things up.
Well, me too - but why would that situation ever occur? I find the idea that the 16 people best qualified for a role in cabinet would ever be only male ludicrous...the chances are certainly very slim indeed.
If that means 2 women, 2 men, 2 black, 2 white, 2 old, 2 young, 2 straight, 2 gay, 2 tall, 2 short...... etc. it means nothing so long as they are the best 2 people for the jobs.
I would rather have an all male cabinet (or an all female cabinet) if they were the best people for the job than peple in positions just to fill quotas or to try to "represent" society.
This is exactly why Labour are out of touch when the deputy leader cxomes out with sexist nonsense like this. I've said before Harpyperson is sexist and racist and here we have confirmation of the first.
On the same day a poll had Tories on 44% and Labour down on 20%..... I wonder if any of the right on Lala Land contributors will see any link between that poll rating and this sort of nonsense?
Hazel Blears, perhaps, the miniscule pantomime dame with her cheque waving and rocking the boat the day before the June elections/
or perhaps caroline Flint who makes Maggie Thatcher sound like a leftie, siggesting people on benefits should be precluded from social housing
Margaret Moran who took troughing to a whole new level
Or could she have meant millionaires wife Barbara Follett and her (or rather OUR) security guards for her Soho pad, or even lovely Tessa Jowell, nice woman though she is, who apparently, inytelligent as she is, didn't think it just a teensy weensy bit odd that her "estranged" husband David Mills, was such a remortgaging enthusiast he/they did it every couple of months.
We will be charitable and forget about jacqui Smith and her sisters spare room and all that.
There are some appalling examples of women in New Labour. Just as bad as the men.
If women were in charge of our countries there'd be no wars, just every 28 days some intense negotiations
I'll be here all night, don't forget to tip your waiter (but check that his / her tips don't make up part of their wage - right on or what?)
To be fair, the Department for Communities and Local Government really should look to start cutting down on all the Pro Evolution Football PS3 tournaments, 'Scaletrix Tuesdays' and the amount of Kendra Wilkinson calendars that are up all over the place.
Misogyny is a much bigger problem than Misandry (or indeed Misanthropy) but the most important thing is to recognise the moral, logical, commercial and historical arguments for equality (which can appeal to all persons of reason) without resort to identity politics.
Very true.
The problem is you can't impose a system where the 51% are women. It has to happen overtime because currently 51% of any political party are not women. Increasing the female membership of political parties would naturally result in a party that represents society. Unless, the party is institutionally discriminatory.
You can't believe in meritocracy and promote people based on their genetics. Make the grass roots representative, make the candidates representative and eventually the parties leadership will become representative. Unfortunately, this is quite a slow solution. But the alternative undermine the genuine democracy we desire.