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Harriet Harman's idea that men cannot run things without women is misandrist and untrue

Harriet HarmanBy Laurie Penny / @PennyRed

Harriet Harman is right to suggest that having the top jobs in the Labour party filled exclusively by men is a terrible and outdated idea, as it would be for any political party. But her reasoning is flawed and ridiculous.

She explains her objection to "a men only team of leadership" by suggesting that "men cannot be left to run things on their own". Which is, of course, entirely untrue, not to mention lazily misandrist. Men can be left to run things on their own - indeed, they managed to run central government all by themselves for a number of centuries without setting the Commons on fire or leaving the Civil Service strewn with empty kegs, takeaway pizza-boxes and porn. What Harman totally fails to do is to make a case for why we should not be satisfied with having men in sole charge of government, even if they're competent.

We want an equal government because only an equal government can truly comprehend the interests of the people it serves. Of course, the past thirty years is littered with examples of brave male politicians who have worked tirelessly to advance women's rights - John McDonnell and Dr Evan Harris - and female politicians like Thatcher, Dorries and Widdecombe who have done anything but. But even male MPs working for women's rights have always done so in a context of solidarity with female ministers and women of power, advancing the female agenda as only they know how - consider, for example, Dr Harris' partnership with Dr Wendy Savage in countering last year's HFE bill to clamp down on abortion rights.

Her idiotic comments will, of course, be taken gleefully out of context by rightist pundits over the next few days, but later in the same interview Harman goes on to suggest, more sensibly, that "in a country where women regard themselves as equal, they are not prepared to see men running the show themselves." As Yvonne Roberts put it today:

"The idea that the individuals running an organisation ought to reflect the market that the organisation is trying to serve is increasingly common practice (ie it generates profits) in the commercial world – so why is it deemed such a revolutionary concept in politics?"

Why indeed? There are plenty of reasons to wish for a balanced government; productivity and efficiency is certainly one, which is the point that I suspect Harman was blunderingly trying to make in the first place. Genuine democracy - a government of the people, for the people, 51% of whom are women - is another.

But we need to start being brave enough to make those arguments upfront, without apologising. If we don't, we'll risk doing what Harman has just done, and making a very reasonable suggestion sound callously anti-meritocratic and misandrist.

Posted on Aug 02, 2009 at 06:00pm

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Why unfortunate? I think it was apt. As I'm sure you know, there are some that say that only quantum effects explain consciousness.

But let's hold with what you say: neurones are made of atoms and sub atomic particles no? So, if the human brain is the most complex phenomenon yet discovered in the universe (and show me one more complex) then the possible permutations at a purely cellular level is multiplied many times at an atomic and subatomic level.

It was a jocular remark, MB5000, and perhaps irony is something that escapes your scientific reasoning. But to say as you do that psychology - in effect the science of consciousness - is somehow only 'probationary' is just your arrant opinion. Quantum mechanics may 'do what you want', but the fact that people don't just shows a deficiency in your theory of reality.

At nearly exactly the same that Niels Bohr, Max Planck and Einstein were changing the concept of outer reality, Freud, Jung and Adler were changing the conception of the unconscious. Both sets of theories are limited, but it's only your bias that says Quantum Mechanics is more important to reality than culture phenomena such as a shift in psychology.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
Nope. Just an interested reader. I'm currently half way through the excellent Quantum by Manjit Kumar.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
My experience too, with a son of 19, and a daughter nearly 17. I was regarded as suspect for being the one who took them to playgroups, nursery and primary school.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
Quantum Physics looks tame compared to psychology

Out of interest, have you done any quantum mechanics, or are you just picking a term that you think is difficult? (20 years ago I was a researcher working at the extreme ends of quantum physics, and I can tell you that much of it is counter-intuitive.)
Richard Blogger @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
When my daughter was born (she's 17 now) there was no paternity leave. My wife had 6 months maternity leave and then went back to work. At that point I stayed at home and looked after my daughter for another 9 months. Best time of my life. Oh, and I washed nappies too - no landfill pampers from us!

However, most of the women I came across thought I was an oddity, they were either "sorry" for me or they regarded me as somewhat "suspect", because they didn't regard looking after kids as something men should do, or should want to do.
Richard Blogger @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
Actually, as someone who has worked in the industry for over 20 years (as a programmer, consultant and trainer) I can say that you are mistaken. I do not know why women do not want to be programmers, but programming does seem to be something that only attracts men. A lot of people in the industry wonder why, and try hard to change things. Employers do not prevent women from working in the industry, they just do not get applicants from women. At the conferences I speak at in the US they make a concerted effort to get more women speakers and still fail because there just aren't enough women in the industry. (Interestingly, the majority of the managers I have worked for in large companies like Microsoft and IBM were women.)

Your characterisation of the industry of being geeky is amusing. Those "geeks" consider themselves to be experts in technology and not freaky at all (the geek term is pejorative BTW), and I suspect that this type of name-calling exhibited by you is part of the problem. Perhaps if people like you started referring to them as "skilled IT professionals" more women would want to do it?

On the other hand, a couple of decades ago medical schools tried to attract more female students and by giving the opportunity for able candidates (opportunity is always important IMO). We now have the situation where there are more female doctors than male. Personally I do not care about the genitals between the legs of my doctor, all I care is that the doctor is highly skilled (and working in the NHS, of course!) However, I should remind you that until recently junior doctors had to work extremely long hours and yet that has not put off women becoming doctors. So clearly these "long hours" in the IT industry (which is not normal over the industry, programming is a 9-5 job like any other white collar job) cannot be the reason why there are so few women. The fact that more doctors are women is a curiosity, nothing more, but would you say that medical schools should take action if the numbers of women doctors exceed the proportion of women in society? No, me neither, I just want a skilled doctor treating me, just as I want a skilled programmer to write the software that I use.
Richard Blogger @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
What led to our economic mess was the system left to us by Reagun and Thatcher, what GB and co did in 97 was just tinkering around the edges and wouldn't have changed anything.
Jonathan Morse @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
Huh?

we have to be represented by a truly balanced cross section of the populace

Can you explain this? Are you saying that the colour of one's skin or the genitals between their legs determines what's in their heads? Are you saying that only someone with children can make sensible choices about children?

As a white, straight man I can still see that racism, sexism and homophobia are wrong and I am rather insulted by the implication that you think that I don't.

It is opportunity that is important, not quotas.
Richard Blogger @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
Give poor Harriet a break for goodness sake people. So, Ms. Harman is a little bit more candid and speaks her mind a little bit more than is politic, but the woman means well and has got a good heart. Harriet is in my opinion streets ahead most other female MPs and Peers and lightyears ahead of noxious over-promoted Blairite poodles like Hazel Blears and Caroline Flint.

What a storm in a teacup.

Much Ado About Nothing.
Tim Robins @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
Of course it's highly probable and the fact that you can't see it is crazy.
Have you ever recruited in the real world for a professional role? I do and it is often the case that there are more male applicants than female. However I would not want to be told that I had to interview a quota of females because I interview the best candidates regardless of their gender.

In 2003 I attended an assessment day and out of the 22 people there only one was male. I was the last 'man' standing at the end of the tough day and was duly appointed.
I remember the assessor had difficulties at one 'de-selection' break as the man could not understand why he had been 'de-selected' and started shouting at the recruiter that she was being sexist. She made it clear that she was after the best person for the role for her client, a global pharma.
Katherine Normandy @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
It's unfortunate that you chose quantum mechanics as a comparison - it tells us that an infinite number of particle-antiparticle pairs are forming and annihilating continuously in the vacuum of space and also around every other particle. Every neuron and every connection between them will also be made of particles that and so the number of possible permutations of particles is far higher than that of neurones. None of which has any bearing on anything.

The number of neurones and possible connections are not an excuse for sloppy reasoning and inconsistent application of the scientific method.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "tame" other than the fact that quantum mechanics is reliable and does what we want. Did you actually think that comparing psychology to a theory so powerful that it's has changed the very definition of "reality" was going to turn out well?
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 2 days ago
Maybe that's because the human mind, with over a billion neurones, each with 10,000 possible connections, actually has more permutations than there are particles in the universe.

Quantum Physics looks tame compared to psychology.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
I think the reality of the way science works is lost on her.

Ms Penny's way or working is generally to adopt a position based upon personal views and bias then look for anything to back it up and try to trash anything that undermines it even if it is a wealth of scientific research.

Given the amount of research on intelligence distribution across varous groupings her best bet was always to try to denigrate the scientific methodolgy as a whole rather than individual research on a piece by piece basis.

Whether a difference in population distributions about the mean for intelligence in men compared to women exists or not, Ms Penny has to deny it else a lot of her feminist ideology comes crashing down.

That fact means her contributions are pretty valueless.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
Psychology, like economics, is far from a science.

It has a closer relationship to voodoo.
Max Sceptic @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
So the essence of genius is being non-linear except for when it isn't?

The definition of psychology as a science is still in it's probationary period as far as I'm concerned. There are some people doing great work, but there are some who play a little fast and loose with the scientific method.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
You're confusing The Bell Curve (book) with the bell curve (normal distribution).

That there is different distribution curve for IQ test scores for the male and female populations is a measurable fact. Why this difference exists, whether it's nature, nurture or a mix of both, whether or not it can be changed are all up for debate. The controversy surrounding The Bell Curve was due to their analysis, not the underlying data.

An individual getting a high IQ score is not a guarantee of success in any particular area any more than getting a university degree guarantees you a great job (I'm living proof of both). Looking at the population as a whole, people with high IQs tend to do better in their particular fields but there are so many other factors at play that you can't use it as the sole factor in determining candidates for a job.

When I wrote "progressive feminist scientist" I was taking the mickey. A scientist - feminist, misogynist or otherwise - must start with the data and explain it not start with a policy and look for data to support it.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
The views of a non scientist feminist with an agenda.

Or peer reviewed research from a large number of reputable highly qualified scientists and institutions.

Which to believe?

Sorry Ms Penny but you lose hands down.

The assumptions you denigrate are perfectly acceptable to me and I suspect would be to you if they resulted in research that fitted your narrow feminist view of the world.

I also find that IQ or intellect in general is a pretty good marker for performance in business, far more than whether they've read a few feminist hand outs.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
Good work Laurie,

Yes, I learnt a long time ago to be wary of assumptions in science. When I studied psychology we did some work on the fallability of IQ tests and thier cultural bias. Intelligence is far more complex (imagery, emotional, imaginative etc, then a linear ordered logical format).

When we examine the works of great genius we also find that the very essence of thier genius was that they thought outside of linear patters on tangents of thier own. Though of course some were also very linear.

Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
Yes it is, but even if it wasn't it's not entirely relevant to the issue. Politicians do not win promotion or achieve success purely on the basis of intelligence or IQ.

The ability to communicate with people, and the ability to empathise, are of equal or greater importance - I'm sure there are scientific studies to show that women outperform men in these areas.

As ever, the right brings as much selective, quasi-scientific nonsense as the left to cloud the basic, simple principle of choosing the best person for the job.
B Bendle @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
Okay, let's do this.

All of that data stems from the book 'The Bell Curve' and subsequent studies. All of those studies are flawed in their appropriation of the scientific method because of the erroneous assumptions they make.

Much of the criticism of The Bell Curve hypothesis has focused on potential flaws in the basic assumptions made at the beginning of the book. William J. Matthews and Stephen Jay Gould list four basic assumptions of The Bell Curve:

1. Intelligence must be reducible to a single number.
2. Intelligence must be capable of rank ordering people in a linear order.
3. Intelligence must be primarily genetically based.
4. Intelligence must be essentially immutable.

According to Gould, if any of these premises are false, then their entire argument disintegrates (Gould, 1994).[9] Similarly, in "Science" in the service of Racism, C. Loring Brace writes that The Bell Curve makes six basic assumptions at the beginning of the book:

1. Human Cognitive ability is a single general entity, depictable as a single number.
2. Cognitive ability has a heritability of between 40 and 80 percent and is therefore primarily genetically based.
3. IQ is essentially immutable, fixed over the course of a life span.
4. IQ tests measure how "smart" or "intelligent" people are and are capable of rank ordering people in a linear order.
5. IQ tests can measure this accurately.
6. IQ tests are not biased with regard to race ethnic group or socioeconomic status.

To which I'd add a further erroneous assumption:

1.IQ is a subtle and accurate predictor of someone's ability to perform well in business, politics or any other high-end profession.
Laurie Penny @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
'Intelligence is more closely clustered around the mean in women than men. Therefore there are more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women. Given that you'd expect a slightly higher % of men at the top of professions'

As I've said before, that's all unscientific rubbish.
Laurie Penny @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
Having written features on this and interviewed top women in IT, you're talking total rot. The problem with the IT industry is that it's unwilling to change its working culture to fit around the demands of caring duties. Most of the women who quit the industry quit in their 30s-50s - that's the female brain drain in IT, where the culture of long-hours and geeky 'devotion to the company above all else' reigns supreme.

In India, where the industry is more realistically structured despite the other disadvantages women face in the country, almost 30% of the IT workforce is female, compared to 9% in the UK. That's why we're increasingly importing workers from India to fill the massive skills deficit the IT industry is racking up because of its unwillingness to change.
Laurie Penny @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
What are you talking about Colin Adkins. Are you suggesting that if Apes were the only graduates from "Oxbridge" they should run the country?
Ann Andrews @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
You obviously missed Alex's point. Guy M dominates most discussions on gender, sexuality and education. If he made one scientific reference, that's a first. Try a wider empirical sample of his comments and you'll get what everyone means.
anti tory troll @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
If you read Simon Baron Cohen he says he is talking about the generic 'male' and 'female' brains, and that most people exhibit elements of both brains: that's why girls can suffer from autism and men from neurosis.
anti tory troll @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
You miss the most important determinant of a child's success. As a teacher I see this all the time. If they come from a relatively wealthy educated background, where books are read, newspapers delivered, and ideas talked about round the dinner table, then they're much more likely to succeed academically.

By taking out only 6 per cent of all pupils (those who can pay and struggle to meet the fees because they believe in education) private schools should be getting the highest results, regardless of the education they provide.

I know plenty of private schools. Some are excellent, some are pretty bad. The value they add is fairly random though, and as for 'bangs for your buck', I'd say a lot of state schools (though surely not all) do as well as many private schools.
anti tory troll @ 31 weeks and 3 days ago
'window licking mentalist'

good phrase

There has to be a way I can get this into a conversation at work with the yanks. They have a completely different understanding of what mentalist means.

re: Harriet Harman. A phrase does come to mind, but it'll upset the thought police.
Thomas Fairfax @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Private schools do tend to get better results and saying so doesn't make you a snob.

They generally have much smaller class sizes so the kids get more one-on-one time with the teacher during a lesson. Any state comprehensive teacher will tell you that if you cut their class size in half, they'll be able to give more individualised support to each student.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"Private schools seem to do it better than many state schools."


Guy M is really Hyacinth Bucket.

Are your girls studying "advanced needlework" by any chance, Guy?
Alan Giles @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Hi Guy,
I think you've overlooked

the fact that socioligy isn't a real

science, especially when they almost never take into
account cultural factors in the countries the studies are made in.
Thomas Fairfax @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Agreed Bill. Most people in powerful positions in politics are very keen to consolidate/increase that power.

I agree about Johnson, I do not know who put him up to the id card stunt(everything I've seen about him so far suggests he would not have done that voluntarily) nor why he agreed to do it. A genuine howler for the 'floating voter' like me.
Billy Bob @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
In what subject area is your D.Phil?

I only have the BSc and MSc but they're both in physics - so I'm curious as to what the exchange rate is?

Before you start playing qualification top-trumps, have a look at the encarta article he linked - written by the PhD editor of the Intelligence journal.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I've got an Oxbridge D.Phil, Guy.

I bet mine is bigger than yours! And I'm not talking about academic credentials, sport! Man, do you sound thoroughly "red brick" or what?

Get over yourself!
Tim Robins @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago

"The distribution of intelligence around the mean seems to indicate that there are more very clever men than very clever women "


Guy has made a little video explaining it to us all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w
Alan Giles @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Are you the biological father of your current wife's children, Guy?

Whatever their origins genealogically I think your policy of staying away from children as much as possible is as enlightened as it is merciful... from their point of view of course.

(And, if you are so academically gifted why is your grammar, syntax and spelling so atrocious at times? Do you get dyslexic when your blood is up, your lips are pursed, your nostrils are flared and you're in full rant? Just curious psychiatrically about your exhibition of myriad psychopathologies.)
Tim Robins @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I think Noah was the first one to come up with the "two by two" idea.
Tim Robins @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago

"and am about to communicate that I wish to removed from the approved list."


Even Smith square breathes a sigh of relief.....



I suspect even Cameron and his little gang of Etonians are not right wing enough for Guy. Double strength Tebbitt or nothing!
Alan Giles @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Personally I think that some articles, mainly about identity politics (sexism, homophobia, race etc.) tend to attract a lot of personal attacks. I guess it's the subject matter, and the passions at stake. I prefer more philosophical (and therefore generally less abusive) articles and threads on liberty, economics, sometimes history, but that's just me...
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I get your point, but, from what I understand, she was only there because she was Frost's girlfriend at the time. She had a career in her own right, but that wasn't why she was there.

She also says that the film makes him out to be more of a playboy than he actually was so I wonder how much of her appearing to be window dressing is the result of glamming up the situation in general.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
h
e
lp
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
You miss my point Monkeybot. The Caroline Cushing character is clearly in Frost/Nixon as decorative wallpaper. The women in All The President's Men not so much. As for my daughter's feelings of annoyance, well, I wonder if she's alone.

But thanks for responding.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
There really are big differences between the male and female brain, says Simon Baron-Cohen, director of the Autism Research Centre, Cambridge University. Baron-Cohen shows that, indisputably, men tend to be better at analysing systems (better systemisers), while women tend to be better at reading the emotions of other people (better empathisers). Baron-Cohen shows that this distinction arises from biology, not culture.

Cell numbers: men have 4% more brain cells than women, and about 100 grams more of brain tissue.

Cellular connections: even though a man seems to have more brain cells, it is reported that women have more dendritic connections between brain cells.

You can read the article here: http://www.doctorhugo.org/brain4.html

However as a mother and a working professional female I would not wish to be appointed to a role on my sex but on merit everytime. When I recruit I appoint on capabilities/competencies/technical expertise/customer focus and experience it would be totally wrong to appoint on sex. It should always come down to, Is this person the best person for the job?
Katherine Normandy @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Are you married with kids? I am, and I can't see anything very "obvious" about how women feel about family and business.

45% of mothers work full time. So the "majority" that doesn't isn't particularly large.

Of that 45% how many work unwillingly because they have to to meet family outgoings? Of the 55% how many would love to work but feel guilty leaving the kids or can't find the childcare?

B Bendle @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Given that Cushing herself says she's happy with the portrail, I just think it's a bit daft to complain about it being patronising.

Your daughter's welcome to find it patronising, but I don't think it's a real problem.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
No you can't. I'm been self employed and a director of my own business for 26 years.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Actually we did discuss this as a representation of the historical context, which is one explanation. But we then followed watching Frost/Nixon with All The President's Men. Oddly enough, that is also all about men, but doesn't seem to need to spend endless screen time focusing on the dresses or decolletage of the women involved. My daughter thought it a much better and less patronising movie.

Who am I (or you) to say she's wrong?
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"Do you actually have any stats to back any of this wild generalisation up?"

Yes - look at any family outside of the middle class.

It's really making me laugh - I am neither Tory nor Labour, but it's always fun to watch the "diversity" party deal with Guy's unarguable logic!

Peter - "Emotional intelligence, a capacity to build and sustain teams, multi task and empathise with customers" - Yes these are all skills which are very useful in customer service, administration, low-scale team management etc. Have you ever run a business Peter? Are these skills really that important? I will give the info to a construction company down the road, I'm sure they'll be putting a woman in charge straight away.

Seems to me these skills are much more important to motherhood than business

The last time I looked at a female run office, the atmosphere was decidedly gossipy, childish and vindictive for certain members of the team. Again, can't give you a stat or graph to plot this, but I would refer to the "bloody obvious" mentioned earlier.

I would add to your list - personal drive to success
- Self reliance
- Assertion
- Emotional stability
Public Scrutiny @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Quiters!

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up to much room.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Looks that way
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I'm sure you are and have never doubted your intelligence just your viewpoint on iinate intelligence.

I think we are out of room
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Well aware of Popper's falsification thesis thanks.
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Strictly speaking you can't prove anything, but let's not go there.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Maybe if people stopped denying the existence of peer-reviewed research just because they don't like the results and stopped relying on strawmen and ad hominem attacks, he wouldn't have to keep defending himself.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Simply put it is this:

Harman is wrong is wrong to denigrate men and to try to enforce equality of numbers in men and women in professions as it ignores some underlying facts:

1 Mean intelligence is the same but distribution differs

2 Women are far more likely to take career breaks or leave careers to rear children

3 Some academic subjects and some professions appeal to men more, some to women more.

Given this equality in representation across any given profession is a coarse and simplistic goal to aim for.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
The fact that you consider yourself to have your own brand of science shows how little you know about how science actually works.

Also, if you're going to argue science with two science grads, get your terminology right. It's not "mean distribution", the mean and distribution are two different things and you're confusing them.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
So you can't prove a negative?

Outstanding observation.
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Alex, this debate was on Harman's assertion that there should be forced even numbers of men and women in positions of power.

The issues of intelligence distribution, women and childrearing and professions that differ in appeal to men and women all count as significant underlying causes of why equality of numbers across all professions is unrealistic.

If you want a top level debate with no understanding of underlying causes then fine this debate was a distraction. If you want a debate that includes reasons for the current situation then you need those underlying causes.

Your choice though.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Being honest.

No I haven't and I think others are struggling with it too.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Which also means you can't measure that they aren't different.

You can only go onn performance in early years which indicates a difference.

Have a nice day.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Guy, I'm not talking about this specific debate. I'm talking about your views on gay rights, on educational provisions, on the economy, on any number of matters, would be more welcomed by the other readers elsewhere. It's not about this debate alone. But I am getting seriously depressed reading your inane, distracted, diverting rants. This thread was not intended to be about education, as you can tell from the post and other comments. You distract from the debate and you add no value.
Alex Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
An unprovable assertion given you can't measure intelligence at birth.

I bid you good day sir.
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
MonkeyBot, my particular brand of science tells me that talking online with a guy with the pseudonym MonkeyBot, and Guy about the 'mean distrubition' of intelligence, with frequent references to people being 'retarded' are insulting, tiresome, and liable to make me want to campaign hard to stop the Tories getting into power. Hope that helps.
Gabe Trodd @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Sure Alex, can you explain how this debate around scientific research impacts upon whether someone wold be leftwing or rightwing?
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I don't think you have understood the argument in the slightest
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"His" science shows that there is a difference in the mean but it's diminishing now that children of different races are being given more equal access to education.

Out of interest, Gabe what/where is "your" science and does "your" scientific method really allow the refutation of empirical evidence with youtube clips?
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
And my reply is simple.

Children are not born all with similar levels of intelligence.

Some children are born more likely to be very clever some aren't. Just as some are born good at sport and others aren't.

But anyway I care not, my kids are clever and at grammar school, what other kids do or don't do is the concern of their parents not mine.

Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Guy,

I really think you are flogging a fetid corpse here.

Children's development and progression at school has far more to do with many other factors than inherent "IQ".

Parental involvement in child development, social activities, access to learning aids, structure of home life.

There's four and I'm sure there are many others.

Many, many, many variables.

In terms of gender differences, how the male and female brains solve problem is proven to be very different.

Male spatial awareness is more pronounced is one example. Female ability at multi-tasking is well known.

However, to suggest that men get the jobs requiring intelligence because of an inherent inbuilt ability simply isn't true.

Look in any serious high-science field - there are women just as good as any man and in some fields, they are the eminent or amongst the most eminent.

Give it up, it just looks a bit, well, silly.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
It's a silly, boring debate.
Gabe Trodd @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I can't be bothered with it either, Guy. Please consider going to ConservativeHome or elswhere. As we know I don't want to stifle debate, but I have thought very seriously about this and I think you overcrowd this space, which is meant to be for Labour people.
Alex Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
What I'm saying is that the scope of potential for academic achievement is so wide that it negates the importance of any so called inherent intelligence in the vast majority of cases.

As for differing educational achievements and intelligence within children from the same families, lot's of reasons can be given -

1. Different effort from each child.
2. Different treatment by the parents.
3. Different experiences by the children. As an example, my brother was 3 years older then me but I used to take part when he did his homework and so I had a head start when I went to school (nurture not nature).
4. Any pyschologist will tell you that there is vastly different life experiences for first and second children which can account for educational difference.

Seems we're running out of space here so let me repeat my main point -

In the vast majority of cases, whatever inherent intelligence there may or may not be is overwhelmingly negated by a childs education.
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
It's not my science. It's the science of numerous institutions and individuals, none of whom are coming at the issue from a sexist position.

As far as I'm aware there is no scientific research to show that skin colour (or more importantly race) has any effect on intelligence.

So faced with being unwilling to deal with the scientific research regarding population distributions about the mean for intelligence you try to insinuate I'm racist?

Thanks for losing all moral standing in this debate.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Guy, I can't be bothered with your science. If anything, what does your science lead you to believe about the relationship between intelligence and skin colour, then?
Gabe Trodd @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Ok, I'm going to take a leap here and guess at what you are implying:

All children are born with equal or near equal intelligence and only the variation in education impacts upon academic achievement?

Basically you argue that nature is minimal as a impact and it is all nuture?

Could you explain then differing educational achievements and intelligence within children from the same families?

Honestly the point you are arguing is retarded in itself.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
As Alex has already stated, differences that emerge at school are overwhelmingly caused by variation in education at home.

Asserting that it is innate intelligence without being able to measure the starting point - IQ at birth - is just that, an assertion and nothing more.
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
My "Islamist Friends"? I'm pretty sure Islam classifies me as half a dozen different flavours of heretic - I'm like the Ben & Jerry's of infidels.

If you paid a bit more attention you'd have noticed that Mark labels all people on benefits as "scrounging off the state" which is not only a thoroughly moronic position to take, it's also personally offensive given that I and most of my friends have been unemployed at some point.

When I was on benefits I did everything I could to find a job because being on benefits sucks and I didn't want to be there. It's not a free ride, it's a deeply humiliating experience and threatening to take away the money I needed for food had absolutely no effect on my ability or inclination to get a job. After leaving university, I spent 4 years bouncing between temping and benefits because I was underexperienced for the graduate jobs and overqualified for everything else and when I tried to make a genuine claim - "Hi, I've got a job lined up for two weeks from now, but I have no food to eat until then" - I got treated like I was stealing despite the fact that money was taken from my pay in tax for the express reason of providing a safety net for the times when there was no work.

As for buying votes, if someone's too lazy to work, do you really think they'll tear themselves away from the Jeremy Kyle show for long enough to go and vote?
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Did I say you could?

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to argue here?

People differ in intelligence and those differences become evident throuh a school career.

Streaming and setting often begins at 11 even in comprehensives.

To argue otherwise is plain dumb.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
You repeat the statement from earlier.

I note you didn't reply to the scientific research I listed.

I'll say again for you:

There is no difference in average male and female intelligence but male distribution about the mean is more widely spread with a heavier population grouping at either end.

Deal with the science or come across as a lightweight Gabe.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
How do you measure IQ at birth?
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Wasn't aware of that definition Charlie and if I had been I wouldn't have used the term at all. Won't be using it in future.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"60s" - don't make me laugh. Women had the option to work and not marry at least from the 1890s onwards. How else do you explain the mature women teaching in the board schools, employed in the growing clerical professions and so on? lWhether many of them took that option, and whether they were stigmatised for doing so, is not the issue. It was an option.

Try reading a bit of history before you start ridiculing others' ignorance. This is all perfectly well documented.


B Bendle @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Sorry, I can't take this debate seriously. I keep thinking about Gareth from the Office now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_4tSidyFtA
Gabe Trodd @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Education works with what is already there.

An individual with an average IQ of 100 is not going to become a nobel winning theoretical mathmatician.

You can be clever and have a good education, you can be clever and have a bad education. The fact remains though that you are clever.

Education can vary, the biogical make up you are born with is pretty much fixed.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Wot 'e sed (Alex not Guy)

Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Peter whenever faced with a position in opposition to your cosy simple minded leftie view-point you seek to personalise and denigrate.

Thankfully I never really meet people like you in business. Can I conclude you work(ed) in the public sector in some way?
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"Innate intelligence provides the scope of achivement in acadmeic endevour."

No, education does.
Alex Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
The use of an extreme is done to clearly show that differences in potential exist.

At the age of 10 it is perfectly clear that some children will not end up being Nobel winning physicists.

Innate intelligence provides the scope of achivement in acadmeic endevour.

I know there are those on the left who would like to argue almost anyone can get a degree or PhD and there is no significant difference in intelligence between people only circumstance but I'm afraid that clearly isn't the case.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
So you take the extreme case of a child with mental health issues to make your point? You'll be telling me that a kid born blind won't play for Arsenal next.

How can you measure innate biological intelligence because once the sprog is out of the womb, everything else is education.

So Dr. Guy, how do you IQ test a new born baby to determine their intelligence?
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
If you must persist with this pompous and myopic lexicographical prediliction, get your speeling and gramma right first.

Why don't you tell Stephen Fry that you think his swearing demonstrates a limited vocabulary and a cognitive deficiency?

He'll probably tell you to f*** off.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I started to reply and ended up chuckling, we're doing it now Peter.

Easily done though. We could do with some more positive articles like the ideas one we had last week, there was very little in the way of personal attacks or picking people up on spelling etc. and it did have some surprisingly good ideas on it. Might keep us all on track a bit more, what do you think?
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Since your opening comment was merely about my language, you fit the definition perfectly

a troll is someone whose primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Case closed.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Oh, and note how the same poster who attacked you, downthread starts mentioning our 'Islamic friends'... That is really offensive
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Bill I agree with almost everything you have written here so am not a troll but that IS the definition of the word. I wasn't comparing you to Draper, I was relating some history and LL folklore. Its up to you if you use it.
Charlie Farley @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Seems to be happening quite a lot today doesn't it. I notice one of your arguments being bypassed for the use of a word earlier. On the bright side you're not being accused of being a clone, yet.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
More employment where Chloe? Do you have access to a local job centre or even a local paper? There are entire regions of the country where there are fewer jobs than there are unemployed, so what do you propose these 'scroungers' do for a living?

So no, not 'simple' at all. And before you spend your days believing this is a Labour problem, they may well not have tackled the problem effectively, but there has never been 100% employment in this country even before the creation of the Welfare State.

It may suit you to tag everyone who claims benefits due to their current employment prospects being dire as 'scroungers', but the system is there to help those who come out of employment and it is a system that a good number who now have to use it have paid into for a considerable amount of time.

And what does the Muslim religion got to do with the price of fish? Is every Muslim now an enemy of the country then Chloe?
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
It's called concern trolling Bill. If you can't actually engage in the argument, pick on terminology and phrasing.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Chloe's right. You only have to look at America and their Wisconsin reforms combined with the Bush tax cuts to see that both poverty and unemployment have been eliminated from that country altogether.
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
That isn't what I mean by it and it isn't my understanding of the term, but if it suits your argument to group me in with Derek Draper, feel free.

Bizarre how people find infinite amounts of time to pick up on the use of a term or a word, but steer well away from answering questions here, generally I mean. The original comment was about politicians and their potential for putting people off entering politics, but its much more interesting to imply I'm cut from the same cloth as Derek Draper isn't it?

Anything else you want to pick me up on? I'm sure some school children use some other words I use on a regular basis in a derogatory manner without my prior knowledge, so there must be a sea of comments that you can gradually pick your way through. I'll probably jump from a Derek Draper clone to a Jim Davidson clone and by the end of the day be a clone of Bernard Manning.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Seeing as you are reluctant to look it up...

Here it is..

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

I stayed on topic because I asked you if you had to swear to make your point. I even stayed on topic with your reply.

The fact you have gone off topic, made another personal attack and want to go even further off topic - perhaps you need to print out this trolling definition and stick it close to your monitor.

Also, the use of BS is inflammatory which if you look at moderation policy....

Incidentally, when I make a mistake, I apologise quickly and without condition.

Swearing usually always a mistake, a social faux-pas and what do you do?

In the spirit of
not feeding the trolls; I shall stop.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"As a case in point, I was watching Frost/Nixon with my 16 year old daughter only last night. It wasn't left wing feminism that made us notice that this otherwise excellent film was marred by the single female lead who was pure window dressing: nice dresses, a provider of drinks and burgers, and no role of her own."

It's interesting that you assume that to be a problem with the film rather than an illustration of the attitudes towards and roles of women during the time period. Here are a few quotes from Caroline Cushing herself on what she thought of the film.

"I had dinner with David every night, and the birthday party was quite, quite accurate. There wasn’t a ton of detail in the movie you know, so it was fair enough. I don’t think I’d have gotten him the cheeseburger though. I said to him recently, I’ll get you one, one of these days!"

"All the sets and the costumes and the portrayal of the period and everyone debating was very accurate. I met with the costume designer and he had spent a lot of time making sure my character had nice clothes, and you know they did a lot of research and they did a really good job."

"Of course, I wasn’t part of the interviewing, I made sandwiches."

"So in that I’m not the least bit fussed about the clothes I wear in the movie, or the handbags I carry. I never would have worn a strapless dress to meet Nixon, that’s for sure. But in the end they did a really god job, so I don’t have any issues at all."


http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-12-06/dating-david-frost/


So she believes, on the whole, it was a fairly accurate representation. Maybe you'd have been happier if they'd taken a few more liberties and had Nixon interviewed by Davina Frost.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
It doesn't negate the importance of "biological luck" it reduces it.

You can't take a child born with mental health problems and turn them into a PhD nuclear physicist.

You can take a clever child and give them the education to allow them to be that nuclear physicist.

Education can only look to allow a child to reach their inate potential.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
You call it revisionism. I call it the evolution of language. Swearing used to encompass any oath "Blimey", "Bloody" etc. Bullshit is not considered on the list of 'referrable words' by the BBC, so that's good enough for me.

On the subject of trolls, I've actually written about this, and thread diversion over spelling/swearing is classic 'interference'.

And I need not remind you, Mike, of that classic trolling technique - ad personam attacks on real identities, or trying to 'out' anonymous contributors.

You achieved a double whammy on that a few weeks ago. Shall I post the link where you consistently accused Anti Tory Troll of being me?
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
So you would argue that if women and men were equally available for Primary School teachng then the overall standard would go up?

But what if the good male candidates for primary school teaching were the good IT candidates? Wouldn't the standard in IT drop?

And what if the good female IT candidates were the good female Primary School teachers, wouldn't the standard of teaching drop?

Don't you think it would be best to accpet the rather obvious reality that some professions appeal to women more than men and vice versa?
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I wouldn't disagree but then that would negate the importance of such 'biological luck'.

Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Less benefit scroungers = less employment taxes = more employment.

Benefits keep people in poverty, employment gets them out.

Simple.


If Labour keeps buying the votes of chronic lazy welfare scroungers, this country will end up bankrupt. Anybody who wants to see that is an enemy of this country, bit like your Islamist friends eh?
Chloe Campbell @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
From a previous post:

http://www.heretical.com/toa/toa-s14a.html

The politics of "heretical.com" are not to my liking but the research is in line with lots of other research

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16971478

http://encarta.msn.com/text_761570026__24/Intelligence.html

The last link states:

"There appear to be no substantial differences between men and women in average IQ. But the distribution of IQ scores is slightly different for men than for women. Men tend to be more heavily represented at the extremes of the IQ distribution. Men are affected by mental retardation more frequently than are women, and they also outnumber women at very high levels of measured intelligence. Women’s scores are more closely clustered around the mean"

There are others
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Do you have trouble with differentiating intelligence with education?

Schools seek to maximise the results a child intelligence can produce. Private schools seem to do it better than many state schools.

Next you'll be telling me that because its snows still, global warming must be a myth.

Weather and Climate

Intelligence and Education

See the difference?
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Well, I've never sworn here and have no plans too either.

By the way, it's swearing, not robust language.

On the subject of revisionism.

Please look up the word "Troll" in terms of internet debate as I really doubt the revisionist powers of the left are capable of re-defining what it means.

Thank you.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"window licking mentalist"

It's a term used by schoolchildren to describe those handicapped kids who take the bus to a special school in the mornings.

Very cruel IMHO, though not surprising to read it from the likes of Draper et al.
Chloe Campbell @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Quick, get a press release to CCHQ -

PRIVATE SCHOOLS A WASTE OF MONEY SAYS TORY

Intelligence is biological luck and nothing more


That'll save them a few quid :)
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I don't know how you 'demolish' spectacles, but now you've revealed your objective stance. Thanks Chloe.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Chris,

That's a load of twoddle basically. What is 'equally available'?

I interview a lot, it's part of my job. 80% of the candidates are men.

That's not equally available?

Or are you suggesting that until a woman joins an IT related degree course then another man can't? What about this whole meritocracy thing that LL talk about? You are suggesting more positive discrimination.

That'll work, I can see Universities jumping for joy for that one.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I'm around at weekends, evenings and holidays.

I still adhere to the biological situation of the last few million years of female child rearing and male provision of resources.

My wife has a maternal instinct I don't. She does what she is good at, I do what I'm good at. We complement each other without any PC nonsense getting in the way.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I'm pretty sure you've used robust language in the past, Mike, but whether you did or not does not make your statements more or less valid. In fact, you're obviously using swearing here as a form of concern trolling, about as relevant as me pointing out that your phrase ""Generally an deficiency in the cognitive function" actually shows a deficiency of cognitive function. Ironic, eh?

But since you are intent on pursuing this Mike, I will repeat: I find your apologetics for both the massacre of Jews this weekend (""the Left are the real monsters"), and the BNP in the past ("It's not the BNP's fault... the Left are to blame") much more offensive.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Intelligence is a trait that I can do little to alter, much like height or a genetic predisposition to allergies.

Education I can do something about, hence the grammar school and tutors.

It's the nature/nurture debate Alex
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I've never viewed it as belittling or derogatory, but if it is I should look around for a replacement phrase as I use that one quite a lot.

Edit: Actually reading how I use it, it is belittling and derogatory. I mean it to mean someone is idiotic and not fit for purpose, that pretty much fits with being quite insulting.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Ann,

I agree that we need to be represented by more balanced representation. Why then is it that it is invariably only gender mentioned in relation to this goal? For me I simply ask the questions, what percentage of the electorate have graduated from Oxbridge and what percentage of MPs have graduated from these institutions?

Colin
Colin Adkins @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
That research is clearly biased and we should fund a new study by progressive feminist scientists instead of this tired old male-centric "scientific method".

Observe, hypothesize and then experiment? A multi-tasking woman could have done all three at once!
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
No Peter you are demolishing nothing.

EQ is a wishy washy metric that appeals to HR departments but not to front end business departments as much as intelligence and it's application.

I would not prefer to employ a high EQ, gets on with everybody but has an average IQ individual instead of a high IQ individual with an acceptable EQ.

That's a business reality and I have to say in politics it should be an even bigger reality. I don't want government ministers to be able to get on with everyone at the expense of being clever and able enough to do the job. I would accept a "difficult" personality in government if they were clever enough to be very effective.

By the way just saying "demolishing your argument" doesn't convince me or anyone else. It's for your own benefit and nothing more.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
It was Mike Thomas who mentioned the swearing. Guy M was busy demolishing your biased rosie specs.

Chloe Campbell @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"My girls intelligence is not something I am responsible for".

My jaw just dropped on the floor.
Alex Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I was always taught that swearing showed a lack of vocabulary and also a lack of self-control in debate and general conversation. Generally an deficiency in the cognitive function.

In practice, arguing with people who resort to swearing and loss of control usually indicates defeat.

Plus it's also bad mannered.

You are debating male v female IQ?

Well, swearing certainly puts the ladies up on the IQ front where you are concerned.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I can't change the nature of exams in the UK.

All I can do is help my girls within the existing system, hence "I don't care either way" as I have no control and I generally try not to worry about things where I have no control.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Did I mention what my qualifications were?

Did I mention my eldest girl in any other terms than evidence that I have experience of intelligent girls? In direct response to your "you cannot know what it feels like to be a bright girl".

My girls intelligence is not something I am responsible for, it is biological luck nothing more.

As for your "points I made about the bell curve of male IQ", you sought to focus o EQ traits to cover the difference in IQ distribution. Be honest now for once.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Guy what science, could you give a reference please as I am unable to find any (damn busy).

Thanks
Ralph Baldwin @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I would, luckily our daughter timed her arrival well so with paternity leave, some leave I'd saved up, Christmas and next year's entitlement. I managed six weeks off to help the wife with the nipper.

What's the point of having kids if you can't be around?
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
It is really horrible, perjorative term.
Alex Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
You're missing the whole point Guy. I'm not angry, but just demolishing your argument. You said that men were more likely to achieve high office because of a bigger range of IQ. I gave you plenty of other factors that are at work, and you ignore them.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Draper unwisely used it in his time here, Bill. What with him being a 'Psychotherapist' it was frowned upon somewhat.
Charlie Farley @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
You have children in education. And even if you didn't you should care about it.
Alex Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Hello Chloe. Thanks for your intervention.

I actually didn't see an argument made by Mike Thomas about male or female IQ. All he said was that he found 'bullshit' deeply offensive, that was the whole sum of it. Providing different definitions of offensive is a legitimate response IMHO.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Why Alex?

I'm out of politics and I don't have to sit anymore exams.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
As I've said I won't enter into further discussions on personal situations.

I've left politics permanently. Largely due to not wanting to represent the public in any way, shape or form and partly due to being able to earn more money for less hours in business.

I would agree with you that I don't think my standpoints are endorsed by my party under Cameron but that the middle classes who have felt under attack for some time would largely agree with me.

I suspect once Cameron gets in the middle class support will be disappointed over time, much as New Labour has angered their core support.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I don't need to boast about the academic qualifications of my children or myself, Guy. Your inability to stick to a logical argument (or reply to the points I made about the bell curve of male IQ) tells me all I need to know about your reasoning abilities. Let's just hope that this deficiency isn't too heritable.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
It seems Peter, yet again, cannot counter the arguments.

"That's pretty rich from the guy who said..."

A real schoolboy line.
Chloe Campbell @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
A fair point but would most men take extended paternity leave if it were available?

I certanly wouldn't and I suggest a large % of men wouldn't either.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I don't know the science, so I'm not challenging you on that - in fact not challenging you on anything. Not after personal circumstances either.

I'm just honestly interested that central Conservative Office would approve you as a candidate if you preach some of the stuff you've said here, and also about class - I recall you telling me a while back that you thought Marx was right and society was based on a power struggle between middle and working/underclasses. You probably won't remember, but I didn't agree with you on that, but you know, I respect your right to that opinion and all that. As it happens I acknowledge that you are probably more in tune with what large swatches of the Conservative-voting middle classes believe and feel.

It's just that I was interested that under Cameron the party would endorse your opinions, especially on the class war and working mothers. It was the central office approved list?
B Bendle @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"I don't care either way, I have my qualifications."

That is a sickening thing to read, Guy.
Alex Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Have I said, or have the studies shown any support for a difference to the mean?

The point I have repeatedly made is that there IS NO DIFFERENCE AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN.

The research points to a different distribution around said mean. It is a point that comes up again and again in research and good well founded research at that as well.

I see it is not a comfortable thing for you to have to confront, but it's there whether you like it or not.

The funny thing is you seem appy to argue for a difference in EQ as it favours women and very angry at the evidence of a difference in distribution of IQ. That rather sums up the bias you show in so many of your posts.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
My eldest child (I have all girls by the way) is a NAGTY child and was taking theoretical maths course at Warwick Uni at 13.

I know a little about bright girls as a result.

She is of the same view that she would prefer a one off winnner takes all exam, but accepts most of her classmates at the Girls grammar wold hate it (it's been discussed).

Educational research shows a constant coursework structure doesnt appeal to boys as much as a last minute crammer exam.

Idon't care either way, I have my qualifications. But I do take offence to perfectly good research being dumped upon merely because it doesn't suit a political position.

This use and abuse of science has been typical New Labour over the last 12 years.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
You're worried about swearing? That's pretty rich from the guy who said this weekend, of the massacre of Jews in Wartime Poland, ""the Left are the real monsters".

Compared to ripe language, that is really offensive.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
As I've said many times, I have completely dropped out of politics (I stopped all canvassing and support of party activities 2 months ago partly as a result of LL) and am about to communicate that I wish to removed from the approved list.

I am not prepared to enter further into discussion over personal circumstances here.

As for my views on differences on distribution around the mean in terms of intelligence for men or women, I am more than happy for anyone of any party to take issue with the science.

The point is not that men or women are more intelligent than the other group. All the evidence shows that they are not. The research points to a different population distribution about the mean i.e. more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women.

Perhaps you could address the science?
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Chris,

Would you like to try and encourage women to work in IT?

This government has tried, the last government tried, private industry has tried. There has been 20 years of trying.

So far, very little change. Perhaps women find technology dull and unexciting, who knows? It is not for the sake of not trying.

Harman's words are not going to make a shred of difference except get the backs up of people trying to level things up and reinforce the prejudices in others.

I consider that counter-productive.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
And it was the Treasury team (Alistair Darling, Yvette Cooper, Ed Balls, Dawn Primarolo and Gordon Brown) that created the playing field and rules of the game to play to in 1997....

My apologies for being born male too by the way.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Guy, as you so often prove, the male brain tends towards system building and a lack of social awareness, empathy and tact.

Given the patronising attitudes to female intelligence which are still dominant in so many parts of the UK, it is amazing how many girls still out perform boys, despite the patronising attitudes of the parents, or the weak role models in society.

As a case in point, I was watching Frost/Nixon with my 16 year old daughter only last night. It wasn't left wing feminism that made us notice that this otherwise excellent film was marred by the single female lead who was pure window dressing: nice dresses, a provider of drinks and burgers, and no role of her own.

Whatever you say, you cannot know what it feels like to be a bright girl when such images are still prevalent. That you have to explain female success by some kind of gaming of the system is the typical rejoinder of the the loser.

I actually agree, however, that the biggest problem is the relative exclusion of boys and their lack of success in the education system. Most of this is attributable to the decline of manual labour and semi skilled jobs, and an employment system that actually favours part time and flexible work, which especially suits women who want to combine work with childcare.

Of course there are some women who want to stay at home with their kids, though lets not kid ourselves that the 20th century image of the housewife, alone with her domestic appliances, is the natural order of things. It's a very recent invention - most women were working up until the mid 20th century, mainly in service.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Ann,

Oh they usually aren't our kids in the eyes of the State. They certainly aren't when it comes to obtaining custody when it comes to divorce, however, we do end up paying for them.

Perhaps if the State allowed things like transferable income tax allowances, made home working easier, enforced flexible working opportunities by removing the 'get-out' clauses for employers.

Maybe get really radical and copy ideas from Europe, offices with day care and nursery creches and massively subsided childcare.

Perhaps then I could work from home a bit more or work a bit less and look after the nippers and generally see more of them.

Men have little choice. We get two weeks paternity leave, women get up to a year.

I'd love some equality because as I see it; there's is precise little of it. Taking right from one and giving to the other is not equality.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Where have I suggested that?

The numbers on politics courses indicate that more men than women are interested in taking a politics degree.

In terms of Geography, more women apply for Human Geograpy based degrees than apply for Physical Geography. Does that tell us anything negative about men or women or that there is a simple difference in interest in that subject.

It is in the interest of the left wing feminists to argue that there is absolutely no difference between men or women whe research after research shows that there are indeed subtle differences.

Why is choosing to bring up children seen to be a negative thing?

Do you honestly believe that as many men as women want to give up careers to bring up children?

Do you honestly beleive that millenia of biological development can be put aside as an irrelevance just because it doesn't suit your current political views?
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Maybe he's pissed off?
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
http://www.heretical.com/toa/toa-s14a.html

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16971478

http://encarta.msn.com/text_761570026__24/Intelligence.html

The last link states:

"There appear to be no substantial differences between men and women in average IQ. But the distribution of IQ scores is slightly different for men than for women. Men tend to be more heavily represented at the extremes of the IQ distribution. Men are affected by mental retardation more frequently than are women, and they also outnumber women at very high levels of measured intelligence. Women’s scores are more closely clustered around the mean"

I'm a trained scientist Gabe. I read the research, look at it's basis and accept the findings if it's good science whether I like the conclusion or not.

I currently support the theory of climate change being man made but I'm totally open to future research showing we've got it wrong.

There is study after study that supports the variation of distribution about the mean in terms of intelligence for men and women.

Please do feel free to refute this science if you can.

Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Guy, I've just this question censored for some reason - but will try again. You have said before on LL that you are on a list of approved Conservative candidates. Is this true, and if so, is it the Central Office approved list, or a constituency one? I'm just curious as to whether the party would endorse your views expressed here, and others on class.
As I said before, I'm not trying to pick a fight, just curious.
B Bendle @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Do you have to rely on swearing to make your point?
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
What about all the stupid statements made by the men? That's what has gotten us all into this mess now. It is the Tory Party that ran the money system from time immemorial not only here in the British Isles either.
Ann Andrews @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
The only barrier to a woman entering a PPE course at the LSE would be a prison sentence for abandoning her children or hadn't you noticed that they are never HIS children?
Ann Andrews @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
You can always spot bullshit when it begins:

"Numerous studies have shown..."

Numerous studies have also shown that numerous studies deviate from normal and reasonable understanding by a large margin. 72% of all statistics are made up on the spot, and the increased range of so called male intelligence (if proven) would not affect the mean.

Actually, most the variation can be accounted for by the propensity of the 'male brain' to tend towards system building at the cost of social skills and empathy. Hence the higher number of male mathematicians and male sociopaths.

But this doesn't affect the normal distribution of IQ (which by this count actually favours women) and fails to take into account the main factors behind business success. IQ is a small part of that. Emotional intelligence, a capacity to build and sustain teams, multi task and empathise with customers are probably just as important: qualities at which women tend to excel rather better than men.

Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Do you mean like the people on the Right in Cheltenham who proved so very label-averse in the case of John Taylor back in the 1990s?
B Bendle @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
http://www.heretical.com/toa/toa-s14a.html

Numerous studies have shown the variation about the mean in terms of intelligence differs in men and women.

The overall result is the same i.e. men and women have equal intelligence as a group but men have more group members at the extremes of the population distribution.

This is not a political or sociological point to be argued from a personal perspective, this is a tested reality.

I would suggest you look at this reality and adopt a position or argument around it. Alternatively though you could pretend it doesn't exist as it doesn't fit your predefined view of the world.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
One thing I would pick you up on there Guy, there are barriers to women. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it is you and people like you that are a barrier to women with your monumentally ridiculous sweeping statements that have no factual basis whatsoever.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Hear, hear
Melanie Lang @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Guy, are you implying that only those women who take politics degrees are fit to eneter politics?
Melanie Lang @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Women in the cabinet making immature, sweeping statements such as Ms Harman's that have managed to put a generation of young women off entering politics or even bothering to listen to the news. I'm in my late teens and have been a Labour supporter for the past 2 years and on hearing Ms Harman, complete with her uniform of oversize necklace and jacket bleating about how men can't run the country without women, I wanted to hide behind the sofa and switch off the telly because I was so embarrased that a member of my own party could come out with such drivel. If that was my reaction imagine what a young woman who didn't have any party allegiance listening to or reading the news would of thought...I can't imagine it would be anything complimenary.
Its so fustrating being a female party member who has to continually observe certain female cabinet memebers take two steps back for women's advancement every time they open their mouths (Caroline Flint throwing her toys out of the pram after the European elections, anyone?) The women in the cabinet need to concentrate on doing what's best for the party rather than going on about 'Equality and Diversity' when there's a million and one more important issues that need to be discussed and a coherent voice heard on. Or as Mr Prescott so eloquently put it "stop complaining and get campaigning"
Melanie Lang @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
What evidence are you basing that statement on?

'Intelligence is more closely clustered around the mean in women than men. Therefore there are more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women.'

Increasingly, this is what your comments remind me of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDzTyOJSe-Y
Gabe Trodd @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Girls started overtaking boys in academic results at the exact same time that exams moved from being a one exam at the end of course system to continual coursework.

Study after study has found that girls prefer the coursework option and boys the final exam. I suggest that if you revert back to the fina exam system the gap would amazingly close.

On top of this add the feminisation of the education system. The vast majority of teachers are female, typical "boy" behaviour is frowned upon, competitive sport has been undermined by wooly left wing "every one is a winner thinking" and the sale of playing fields.

School at the moment is not totally fit for purpose for boys.

As fot the rest of the nonsense you right, you don't get the point of a large number of women not wanting to have children and then rush back to work asap. For many women once they have kids they WANT to stay with them. It's a biological maternal instinct and to argue it doesn't exist is to be about as naive biologically as can be.

Seriously use that brain of yours occasionally rather than parroting the same old tired left wing feminist dogma.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Same old left wing feminista nonsense.

Women often choose to drop careers to have children, men generally don't

Intelligence is more closely clustered around the mean in women than men. Therefore there are more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women. Given that you'd expect a slightly higher % of men at the top of professions

As someone else pointed out there are very few women enrolled on politics degrees at university which leads to the conclusion that it's likely that there will be more politicians who are male than female. In the same way as there are far more teachers who are female etc.

You can't take every profession and career and expect or impose a straight 51:49 split. It's a bonkers way of thinking and only appeals to the left who are fixated with equality of end result rather than of opportunity.

In my constituency there is no barrier to women holding office or seeking election. Yet few do, That's their choice and seeking to impose equality of numbers holding office when there isn't equality of interest or desire is plain stupid.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Harman's comments are specifically in relation to the rules of a political party i.e. a voluntary organisation. In IT there is a supply side issue in terms of numbers doing IT training. But famously to be a committee member of a local political party, to be a councillor, to be an MP or MEP there are no barriers of this kind. I think you know Mike that if women and men were equally available in IT the overall standard would go up and the mediocre men would do less well. Which would be good for the industry and for your firm.
Chris Paul @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Spot on. Tackled Dale yesterday and Greer today. Essentially, these Tory boys are either incredibly thick, incredibly prejudiced, or incredibly keen to avoid merit getting a hand up of any sort.

Ground zero and everyone re-applying for everything might move us towards equality quicker than any Harmanesque tinkering. Is that what they want?

Clearly under meritocracy we'd have 51% women in every sphere of office and power and overpayment. Or are the frit "merit" boys saying 15% is your lot, because by-and-large you women are inferior?
Chris Paul @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
If Ms Harman's argument is alleged to be flawed and ridiculous then Laurie Penny is, not only insulting, but just plain silly or thick or both. We all know that the Tories know that everyone who matters is white, male and straight. On the other hand Ms Harman knows that to get a truly balanced society we have to be represented by a truly balanced cross section of the populace. Perhaps she didn't do biology? I think she should mind her appalling manners.
Ann Andrews @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Reading a debate where online male Tory activists say things like:

'The distribution of intelligence around the mean seems to indicate that there are more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women'

and

'I like the way the left never allows the blatantly bloody obvious to cloud their mind'

is like being involuntarily beamed into an episode of the Office, so sit opposite Gareth. It's hugely embarrassing to read.

I like the way that with Tory activists, they're fine to say stuff like, 'Please look into a substance called testosterone if you want to understand what drives people to success, or to try to succeed' until anyone brings up Thatcher.
Gabe Trodd @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"Do you actually have any stats to back any of this wild generalisation up?"

I like the way the left never allows the blatantly bloody obvious to cloud their mind.
James - Man of the Right @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Why is it the Left is so concerned about diversity, yet always defines people by separatist criteria. He is Gay, She is a woman, he is black etc. They fixate on labels always.

The Right do not define people by what they are, but by what they do. It reminds me of that 1979 election poster. A man stood there with the caption "Labour say he's Black. We say he's British" so true.
James - Man of the Right @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
'The majority of women see the family as a more worthwhile calling than business.'

Do you actually have any stats to back any of this wild generalisation up?
Laurie Penny @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Mrs Harman is a female 'MISOGYNIST', and 'Man Hater', this is prejudice and agin the law. Mrs Harman is a lawyer and a QC, allegedly. But then Lawyers and MPs are not the most popular of beings at the moment. They are equated with Estate Agents, Bankers and 'Arthur Daly' second-hand car salespersons.

Under Harriet - the Communist-Marxist-Lenist 'Stalinesque' Monty Python Wing of the Labour Party lives!! Hip, Hip Oorah!!
TumbleWeedNumpty Mr Captain Mainwaring @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Hmm - yes, scientists proved that being equipped with breasts and a womb in no way means that person would be more likely to want to spend time bringing up children.

This was a product from 19th century England leftover to modern times - if you look to different cultures in the world today outside of the male-dominated west, you will see a range of modern societies with women at the forefront, where men stay at home to look after children just as often as women.

"19th Century" - don't make me laugh. It's only since the 60s in the western world where women have ever had a different option!

...and, even if you don't personally agree with it, or endorse it, Guy is absolutely right. The majority of women see the family as a more worthwhile calling than business.

Please look into a substance called testosterone if you want to understand what drives people to success, or to try to succeed.

With regard to the overtaking of exam results.....what happens if you exclude everything except the really important and difficult subjects which ensured buildings stay up, and we don't all die before we're 40 like Maths and science? You and I both know that many of these advances by girls are in things like media studies, administration and childcare. Also, look at the top 10% of all results and see if there is a bias.

Men and women have scientifically different bodies and vastly different brains, which lead to different behavior.

Here are a list of names you might like to call me in absence of a point to argue back:

- 19th Century misogynist
- Sexist
- Daily Mail reader
- Daily Express reader
- outdated

etc etc
Public Scrutiny @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
What's Harriet's position in respect to transexuals?

Is she in two minds about it?
Jeff Harvey @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"People on benefits should stop scrounging off the state, get off their backsides and find a job.
Mark Smith "


Common by name, common by nature.


If people are seriously ill or disabled?. And there are well over 2 MILLION able-bodied people unemployed?.... and unemployment is likely to rise for the next year or so?

Wake up at the back there, Mark!
Alan Giles @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Yes, its a re-run of Till Death Us Do Part, with Guy M as Chairman Alf.

Seriously, hasn't anyone cottoned on yet? Guy's a comedy parody. It's a set up. He'll soon have his own fringe show based on his experiences imitating a Tory on LL.
anti tory troll @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
You can't argue with nature?

Humans have been arguing with nature for many millenia. Hence our life expectancy has risen from around 35 years to 80 years in a century.

But since you're still living in the 19th Century, Guy, you probably failed to notice this.

Also, you might have missed the bit when girls started overtaking boys in academic results - GCSE, A Level and now Degrees. There are more women millionaires in their 30s too, because though not represented well in the macho world of the corporate boardroom, they do better than men at start ups.

Pregnancy requires only a few months off work, and good childcare provision. This can be shared among parents, and working hours can be made more flexible to allow both parents more time with their children.

How about that for arguing with nature (or indeed blustering buffoons)?
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Um...that theory has been widely disproved to be total bollocks.
Laurie Penny @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
'Harpyperson'?

What is this, 1975?
Laurie Penny @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"Ms Harman's utterings are widely believed to be anti-male"

That's because THEY ARE anti-male, in particular anti white male.

Harpyperson is a sexist and a racist.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Thank god you're here - I thought it was going to take at least 4 sentences to solve our unemployment problems.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Are you a drill sergeant in disguise? I have a first name too you know.

I like the term window licking mentalist, it conjures up something different to everyone who reads it.

Not sure why you'd think I was anything to do with Derek Draper because of one comment though, fuzzy logic there.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Surely that is true of many of them. One of the reasons I'm disappointed in Alan Johnson, I thought he was going to bring something different to the table in his new job.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
People on benefits should stop scrounging off the state, get off their backsides and find a job.
Mark Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
"Window licking mentalists"?

Are you Draper in disguise, Dewison?
Mark Smith @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
I'm sure Harman's comments make perfect sense to any women near the top of the Labour Party... hang on..

The Tories probably cannot believe their luck; Harman diminishes the Labour Party's chances of success at the next election by much more than any of their own ranks could hope to.
Billy Bob @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Ms Harman's utterings are widely believed to be anti-male and anti every other sector that has votes that count. What Labour has to consider is that widely held but untrue beliefs are in effect considered to be true by a wide section of opinion. So they are in effect true - ergo Labour is anti male.

I doubt that her views will drive pro-Labour sentiment down further but, they sure as hell will not increase support.

From my point of view Harriot, carry on saying this stuff and, next year you will be history. But, please do yourself a favour and show the judgement worthy of one of the top two in Government.
Paul Wakeford @ 31 weeks and 4 days ago
Is it just me, or do female MPs only seem to bring this up when they've just been kicked out or they're angling for a promotion?

There's obviously a genuine problem with MPs being almost exclusively white males, but why is it always the worst examples of female MPs making the noise about it? Harman couldn't be less help if she tried.
MonkeyBot 5000 @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
The distribution of intelligence around the mean seems to indicate that there are more very clever men than very clever women and more very stupid men than very stupid women. Given the recent history of politicians, you can make your mind up what that may mean in terms of cabinet representation.

I would say that cabinet representation is by definition (or it was until Brown started appointing Lords left right and centre) dependent on MP representation.

Whichever way you look at it there will always be more men than women in the higher echelons of business and politics etc. due to motherhood. Most men do not want to take long periods off for childcare whereas a lot of women do want to. You can't really argue with nature.

Certainly from my wife and my perspective, she's a science grad in business who chose to take a career break to be with the children, I'm a science grad in business who was not interested in taking a career break to be with the children. I suggest that example is mirrored a lot in society. It has obvious implications on the higher positions in society.
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
Depends if women are put off about going into politics in the first place for fear of ending up like Harriet Harman or some of the loonies that have managed to make themselves look silly.

Mind you, men still go into politics even though they are given examples every day of male politicians being complete window licking mentalists, so maybe you're right.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
I'm not sure Harriet Harman is doing anyone any favours at the moment, not least the women of this country who are interested in politics. Not only does she repeatedly say the words in the wrong order but she has terrible timing. Its right that everyone should be represented in government, but unless there will be a cabinet reshuffle in the very near future, by the time there is her discussion will be forgotten.

Where was she after the local elections, putting forward the names of good female politicians who could be of benefit to the cabinet? Or trying her best to sound positive about GB and hoping she kept her job?

Timing is everything and if Harriet Harman wanted to use this week for anything, she could have used it to present some vision for the electorate rather than looking towards the careers of politicians. Doesn't she realise that Labour is fighting for its political life because they have become distant with the electorate?

Her time on this occassion getting out and about, speaking face to face with the electorate and finding out where Labour are going wrong. Then there might be an outside chance of another Labour government in the near future so she can ensure women are represented correctly in positions.

Insisting that the Leader and Deputy Leader should be a man and a woman at all times is stupid though. Those two positions need to be filled by people who can communicate and inspire, something Harriet Harman finds very difficult by the looks of things.
Bill Dewison @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
I want the best leader for the job; like any role I interview for - I want the best. I don't care what their gender is or what colour they are on this planet; nor creed, sexuality, religion or political persuasion.

I want someone that does the role, has a positive attitude and does their job well.

Anything else is utterly superfluous.

I work into a very male dominated industry and the general stereotype is 'girls don't do geek'. I have done outreach work into schools to encourage boys as well as girls into technology to try and even the gender balance up.

Hearing Harman's remarks I'll take them at face value, shrug my shoulders and carry on. They are very unhelpful especially to us chaps who are trying to even things up.
Mike Thomas @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
'I would rather have an all male cabinet (or an all female cabinet) if they were the best people for the job than peple in positions just to fill quotas or to try to "represent" society.'

Well, me too - but why would that situation ever occur? I find the idea that the 16 people best qualified for a role in cabinet would ever be only male ludicrous...the chances are certainly very slim indeed.
Laurie Penny @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
You appoint the best people for the jobs.

If that means 2 women, 2 men, 2 black, 2 white, 2 old, 2 young, 2 straight, 2 gay, 2 tall, 2 short...... etc. it means nothing so long as they are the best 2 people for the jobs.

I would rather have an all male cabinet (or an all female cabinet) if they were the best people for the job than peple in positions just to fill quotas or to try to "represent" society.

This is exactly why Labour are out of touch when the deputy leader cxomes out with sexist nonsense like this. I've said before Harpyperson is sexist and racist and here we have confirmation of the first.

On the same day a poll had Tories on 44% and Labour down on 20%..... I wonder if any of the right on Lala Land contributors will see any link between that poll rating and this sort of nonsense?
Guy M @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
I wonder what responsible women Harriet was thinking of?

Hazel Blears, perhaps, the miniscule pantomime dame with her cheque waving and rocking the boat the day before the June elections/

or perhaps caroline Flint who makes Maggie Thatcher sound like a leftie, siggesting people on benefits should be precluded from social housing

Margaret Moran who took troughing to a whole new level


Or could she have meant millionaires wife Barbara Follett and her (or rather OUR) security guards for her Soho pad, or even lovely Tessa Jowell, nice woman though she is, who apparently, inytelligent as she is, didn't think it just a teensy weensy bit odd that her "estranged" husband David Mills, was such a remortgaging enthusiast he/they did it every couple of months.


We will be charitable and forget about jacqui Smith and her sisters spare room and all that.


There are some appalling examples of women in New Labour. Just as bad as the men.

Alan Giles @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
Yeah I had a giggle at that line too. The debate reminds me of a Robin Williams joke -

If women were in charge of our countries there'd be no wars, just every 28 days some intense negotiations

I'll be here all night, don't forget to tip your waiter (but check that his / her tips don't make up part of their wage - right on or what?)
Louis Mazzini @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
Cool article - it's quite an interesting debate. Just for the pure comedic value, this line tickled me: 'they managed to run central government all by themselves for a number of centuries without setting the Commons on fire or leaving the Civil Service strewn with empty kegs, takeaway pizza-boxes and porn'. haha.

To be fair, the Department for Communities and Local Government really should look to start cutting down on all the Pro Evolution Football PS3 tournaments, 'Scaletrix Tuesdays' and the amount of Kendra Wilkinson calendars that are up all over the place.
Gabe Trodd @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
Thanks Laurie for reminding us that equality means what it says on the package, and cuts both ways.

Misogyny is a much bigger problem than Misandry (or indeed Misanthropy) but the most important thing is to recognise the moral, logical, commercial and historical arguments for equality (which can appeal to all persons of reason) without resort to identity politics.
Peter Jukes @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago
"Genuine democracy - a government of the people, for the people, 51% of whom are women - is another."

Very true.

The problem is you can't impose a system where the 51% are women. It has to happen overtime because currently 51% of any political party are not women. Increasing the female membership of political parties would naturally result in a party that represents society. Unless, the party is institutionally discriminatory.

You can't believe in meritocracy and promote people based on their genetics. Make the grass roots representative, make the candidates representative and eventually the parties leadership will become representative. Unfortunately, this is quite a slow solution. But the alternative undermine the genuine democracy we desire.
Siberian Tory @ 31 weeks and 5 days ago