By Alex Smith / @alexsmith1982
UPDATE:
I've now seen the interview with Gordon Brown and do think it was a more personable performance than I've seen from the PM for a while. There was a degree of honesty, and perhaps some over-compensating for past coldness with too much personal narrative, too many "hold on, Andrews" and too many interruptions and distracting responses.
Certainly, the rhetoric on cleaning up the way Parliament operates and overhauling our constitution through a comprehensive reform bill was encouraging, as it was to hear the PM state that the House of Lords cannot be allowed to stay in its current form and to frame that no other leader has made direct suspensions of expense abusing MPs from their parliamentary party. Brown was also commanding on the econonmy, saying that while Labour's quick measures were praised by the IMF, the policies of the opposition would have led to more debt, more job losses and far slower recovery from the recession.
On the negative side, Brown was non-commital and showed the type of dallying and exessive pondering that belies the current crisis and negates the present opportunity for change. I was disappointed not to hear more specific details on the type of discipline that expense abusing MPs would face. The PM refused to name specific cabinet ministers that would be investigated by his so called star chamber. Even when Andrew Marr referred specifically to Geoff Hoon, James Purnell, Hazel Blears, Ed Balls and Alistair Darling, Brown would not specifically support or condemn any indivudual. Maybe that's good HR management. Maybe it's just more politics.
It also was disappointing to note that large chunks of Constitutional Reform would be in the next Labour Party manifesto, rather than passed under the current parliament using the majority and mandate the government already has. But the most demoralising quickfire answer to the serious question, framed in the long-term conditional and hypothetical:
Would you stand aside for the sake of the Labour Party?
No.
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I haven't yet been able to watch the Gordon Brown's performance on the Andrew Marr Show, but will do as soon as it's up on iPlayer. I've read a bit of the commentary from elsewhere, and the general view is that the PM was very closed and evasive on the toughest questions.
One of our readers, Love's Labour Lost Shakespeare, said it was "disastrous":
"Evasive, self-serving, indecisive – in fact all we’ve come to regard as his trademarks, but in spades this time. Viewers will have been shouting at the screen for Marr to say something like, “No Prime Minister. YOU listen please.”
Meanwhile, Iain Dale says is was an impressive display of Stonewalling:
"He came out fighting, although I doubt whether many voters will have been swayed by what he said".
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Maybe if he keeps this up we may yet have a chance next year. However I thought the worst part was his set piece, Machiavellian style answer on D-Day, which was probably because he'd decided, some time ago, not to go to D-Day type events. There is the issue that if you place one battle over another how does everybody not involved in D-Day feel - the Merchant Seamen, those fighting in Italy (& before that, North Africa), Burma, & if you must Bomber Command, which had a high casualty rate if not as honourable a role. The solution is to celebrate VE-Day and VJ-Day only, but Brown wasn't going to defend that. D-Day is Liberation Day for the French - their equivalent to the Battle of Britain and the Heads of State of both France and the US are also their Heads of Government.
You critizise GB for interrupting Marr but Andy Marr doesn't shut up - he asks a question to which you'd like an answer, then he asks 4 more, or gives his own answer. Also I don't think Marr's pro-Labour. I remember when he had Major on - it was a case of Marr throwing the balls in the air and Major hitting them. Marr if anything is Tory - never seen him critizise them, unless it's on some irrelevance.
Can we stop critizising the 'Star Chamber', which is the name used for it by its critics. Cameron can take the Party Whip off someone on a whim, remember 'Howard Flyte' who had his political career ruined by his then Tory Leader, Michael Howard, instantly. It can look great if you can act instantly but what if the allegation is wrong. We need due process, I'd have thought that as left wingers we'd support letting a third party decide what happens, so MP's can know that if they've been wronged they can put their case and survive. The original Star Chamber was an unjust process, more like the Tory system.
But more to the point, I want to see strategy! I don't have a desire to see GB fail.
When he speaks he comes across as if he thinks he's right no matter what the situation is, or what evidence there is. His musings on "the events of the last few weeks" are demented. He obviously doesn't realise that the problems were not over the last few weeks but the last few years! It seems he's only sorry for the reports coming out, not commiting the crimes in the first place. He talks about having an election before reform is sorted as not the way to go. I couldn't disagree more. We need a new set of MPs before reform can take place. I for one do not want the same MPs that abused the system designing the new one. There should be an election as soon as all the information is in the public domain. There should be by-elections in the effceted constituencies if a general election is not called.
Its difficult to see Cameron as PM because he has no ministerial experience or experience of power. This is the same for every opposition leader. On the issue of expenses he's leagues ahead. He has put together proposals which seem to me to be good common sense but only a start. I haven't heard anything from Brown apart from lame actions within the party.
This issue can be seen two ways. It is absolutely horrible for the standing of politicians and politics but its a great opportunity for change. GB has missed yet another opportunity. If he had been proactive and cleansed his cabinet fully he would have seemed strong and in control. But he seems oblivious to the problem and unwilling to take the action necessary.
If he was seen as a safe pair of hands in a storm things could be turned around, but he is seen as a figure of fun and no-one votes for a joke.
Nobody could harm Labour's prospects more than Brown staying on.
I do hope he stays.
Someone should visit Gordon Brown with a bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver and ask him, for the sake of the party, to do the honourable thing. Mind you Gordon Brown has proven to be so hopeless as a Prime Minister that were he to try to blow his own brains out he'd probably miss and hit his wife Sarah by mistake!
Gordon, if you happen to read these words, for everybody's sake please go.
Some people say they don't know what Labour stands for. If truth be told they probably don't know what they stand for. This is as good a start as any as you can write anything you like on a blank sheet.
I've been using photography to knock some of the junk out of my mind. Once you get over the mental clutetr of bad habit, worrying what a jerk you look, and impatience for "that shot" one feels positively brimming with enthusiasm.
I recommend all Labour people rush out and buy themselves a camera. The Canon A590 or A720 is excellent for a beginning if you can still get one, a SX series if you're more serious, or an EOS if you're a pseud.
Life is good. It's the ulcer tablet crunching mob wound up like a clock spring who are the ones living in a mystical fairy land or, rather, the hell of their own mind. No wonder half the country is depressed. Yeesh.
There will be on change to the electoral system before the next general election has to be fought. The only issue come that election is who votes for whom and any "paradigm" shift will not get around that basic fact.
Come May 2010 (or sooner hopefully) is Labour poll in the high 20s (far higher than they have now) and the Torys at 40% (the low point of the last 12-18 months) then Labour go and the Tory Party form the next government.
1.Place the police and the local Crown Prosecution Service under elected sheriffs.
2.Select candidates through open primaries.
3. Hold local and national referendums.
4. Pass the patronage powers enjoyed by the prime minister under crown prerogative to parliament.
5.Elect the speaker and other parliamentary office-holders by secret ballot.
6.Make local councils largely self-financing.
7. Select heads of executive agencies through open hearings.
8. Allow the House of Commons to ratify foreign treaties.
9. Give English counties and cities the same powers as were devolved to Holyrood under the 1998 Scotland Act.
10. Replacing the House of Lords with an elected Senate of the Regions.
I especially agree with points 1, 2 and 5. Elected Sheriffs would bring about more accountability in the police force, selecting candidates through open primaries would remove the strangle hold on local democracy the political parties have in safe seats and secret ballots on parliamentary office holders would weaken the whips and allow Parliament to flex it's muscles more.
Carswell is not without his idiosyncrasies but he has some interesting ideas. The basic point he drives at is that we live in a world where people have increasing choice and control in their lives but this isn't the case in politics hence peoples frustrations with it. Surprisingly, he and Tony Benn are often in agreement on the tyranny of the unelected official. For example how would you go about ousting the head of your local hospital if it didn't provide properly for your community? You'd need the health secretary to intervene. But if these people were appointed by locally elected officials every 4 years those local people are now accountable for that officials actions.
He is controversial for example he'd like all social security to be provided locally; which I can see massive benefits coming from but there would need to be some central funding for deprived areas as they simply couldn't self finance. The state does have a role in re-distributing wealth (provided it does so efficiently).
sorry Bill. I would not do it...
I respect your position. Just do not agree with it!
a fair point.
suppose we will have to just wait and see.
bright lights blind and dim one's may be suitable for deep reflection.
is past always a good guide to the future?
we are in the 4th quarter of a paradigm shift....in society. the world of politics will never be the same again.
I see, so the record low in the polls for Labour, the disaster at the last local elections, the likely removal of Labour from any local council control in the middle/south of England and the Tory party polling consistantly above 40% are just irrelevant minor points?
I seem to remember in the year or two prior to the 1997 election, large chunks of the Tory party refused to believe that they could lose and that there was no large scale move of public opinion to a point of "anyone but the Conservatives" that led to the electoral wipeout. Local and euro election results were "mid term blips" that "all governments go through". The main issue for Major's government was "getting the message across" etc.
It really is strangely similar in reverse at the moment and I suspect it might lead to the same end point except for Labour this time.
How anyone can be so dim given polling over the last 12-18 months and recent electoral results to say "the Tories have nil chance of getting in" is a mystery to me.
rebirth, regeneration, change and metamorphosis are part of life's endless drive for it's own prosperity.
An end will mean a new beginning. Is it not up to you to make of it what you will!
Do you not see that his arrogance, his unwillingness to do what is best for his Party is going to see and end to an era? Albiet a bizarre era where success was measured using dodgy statistics, but an end to what was New Labour, leaving hundreds of thousands of people who want to believe left with very little to do but watch the inevitable.
Unbelievable, but something to tell the children when they are a little older... how not to lead a party and how not to run a country.
"I'm very much of the Douglas Carswell school of thought on this."
what's he about then?
?
please explain. thanks.
wait, wait & wait and see.
who would be the replacement?
Did anyone else glimpse the hysteria within "Dave" when he said that he does not want any change. and that he wants them now. on the Beeb. The phrase "the lady protests too much" comes to mind. cheer up folks!
why?
Gordon Brown should realise that the tumbrils are coming down the street, the guillotine is being sharpened and he should take the decent option of satisfying the demand for a major change now by calling an Election, with firm Manifesto commitments from each party as to how they are going to address the situation.
Poor Gordon is absolutely terrible in the public eye.
Oh, how I wish he would go!
Why don't those who are close to him have the strength to tell him he is a liability and that he should stand down now and leave with some pride.
Gordon Brown is going to sentence us all to at least two Tory governments.
How Cherie Blair must be laughing now.
Personally, I don't think GB is capable of delivering these reforms especially in light of the contempt he has shown parliament, the youtube fiasco springs to mind. Also,I'm suspicious of a big state and I think with the right innovations we could sweep away the unaccountable, wasteful bureaucratic civil service machines and control schools, hospital etc from a local level. I'm not convinced Labour can move out of the 20th century mindset. GB said he for every extra penny he spent of public services he wanted reform; but it never happened.
We will see though. Everyone is talking the same talk at the moment. You can smell change in the wind. If GB delivers all for the better, but I won't be holding my breath. We are living through interesting times and we are going to see change. To begin with in our politics but then in public service reform which will be a necessity for whichever party wins the next election; because if they don't force it the IMF will.
Not sure what this means but I'm certain of what I saw.
If Nick wants to test his self-confidence and social skills he could always get his ass thrashed by a black man I've played chess with, or a popular Muslim shopkeeper I know. I suspect, he'll discover the problem isn't so much "them" as it is him. The real enemy is never "out there" it's "in here".
Still, we're always the last to know... O_o
Is this the answer though?
I would attribute the apparent rise in the BNP (although today's polls suggest otherwise) being the loss of interest of all the major political parties in the white working class. The fact we're all charges as "being the same" speaks volumes. Frustrated these people turn to the BNP. The Labour party used to speak very loudly to the working class and the Tories under Mrs T. had a constituency among narrower working class demographics. That's now gone.
The trouble is the BNP has a simple argument that goes "Your problems are the result of immigrants and the political parties care more about them than you" It's easy to understand and therefore it hardly matters that it's a lie.
Consensus politics is not always good politics because generally that means you're pandering to one particular demographic ignoring the others. To make the BNP irrelevant is simple; we (the Tories) and you (the Labour party) need to have a bloody good scrap at the general election not a popularity contest with the swing voters. Incidentally this would also destroy the Lib Dems who stand for nothing and are the ultimate opportunists.
tribal, a man of global stature, anti-poverty, pro-hardwork. and pragmatic.
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"the current situation is not healthy for our politics"
However.....the darkness of the night does come before the brilliant sunrise. would you not agree?
I expect that this process of rebirth of politics and the massive regeneration of society will be finished by start November. So not long to go now!
A strategic Focus on BNP is only for a short-term "gain".
Say the BNP gets a person into the European Parliament.
Perhaps the sheer embarressment of being represented abroad by a member of the racist BNP will focus the country's mind into coming to a collective settlement on issues such as immigration and pride and loyalty to one's country (i.e patriotism).
Currently Brown attempts to define himself in terms of what he's not. That is to say he's not a Conservative. What is Gordon Brown about? Does anyone know? That's what he needs to work on; I imagine he probably does have a strong set of core beliefs but we're certainly not seeing them.
Much as I'd hate to see Labour win the next election the current situation is not healthy for our politics.
From what I gather it's a party of two halves. The more sane voices in the form of Farage and the closet racists. It's embarrassing to see Farage having to outline some of the less palatable policies he clearly doesn't believe in as a sop to his own party.
I would seriously consider voting UKIP on the European issue (I favour the Norwegian model); but they are so anti-immigration it's unreal. We've benefited so much from immigration and the overtones from them are so unpleasent that despite my belief the EU will never be reformed and will always be a ruling, distant elite I cannot bring myself to join with them.
The BNP are one to watch though; I reckon a lot of people may vote for them but not admit to it. Remember the "shy Tories" of the 1992 election?
On the Marr interview I think GB did alright certainly one of his better performances. No surprise he won't stand down even for the sake of the Labour party.
The man is likely to lead you all to destruction and no-one seems to be serious about ousting him. On awful lot of Labour supporters seem to be saying "eventually people will see through Cameron, we only have to wait" this Micawber mentality wouldn't do; we spent 10 years saying the same about Tony Blair.
Labour are a bit stupid and wasting time going after the BNP. It smacks more of yesterdays ideology and scaring their own supporters into getting their asses of their couches but doesn't solve anything or build lasting support. Plus, the BNP are a legal party and getting funny over their status just looks suspect.
Help people succeed. Look like you give a damn. Profit.
I'm not too clued up on the UKIP, but I keep on passing these billboards with pictures of Churchill and words like "no" and "immigration". Are the racists on the rampage and no one thought to warn me?
I've noticed that a few people who are inspired by, say, Miyamoto Mushasi's classic work on strategy, The Book of Five Rings, or who are new to martial arts go a bit crazy for a week or so but settle down. Both Blair and Kennedy had their moments. Blair went on to succeed. Kennedy folded. What Brown does remains to be seen.
I'm glad to see someone's paying attention.
It was. However...
he is a strategic chap and does not do lightness of touch well.
He does well with big strategic change though - and has greater freedom of movement. The reverse is the case for his opposite number.
Ambition and appealing to people often backfires as irony (the fifth fundamental force) kicks in. When we push or desire the world pushes and claws back. This is why after trying this then trying that people finally, grudgingly, let go and arrive at what they should do. In letting go irony works for them.
Some people in his own party have been taking positions on issues, the public have been expressing their feelings, and the media have been milking that for headlines. But behind the presentation most people's goals are fundamentally the same. If the Prime Minister gets his brain out of the way he might see that.
Let's see if Brown drops the funk and wears a loud kipper tie at PMQ's.
Some questions:
1. Why do only people who post negative comments get attention?
2. Why is it that only adversaries get linkage attention?
Meanwhile, back in the bunker: all my clever plans come unstuck but I have an accidental talent for taking urban photos of chix, and I need to expose to the right for urban night scenes as it captures more detail. o_O
Jus' saying, yah know. It's holistic, man. Roll with it, 'kay.
Current polls:
Conservative: 40%
Lib Dem: 25%
Labour: 22%
European polls:
Conservative: 30%
UKIP: 19%
Labour: 16%
Lib Dem: 12%
Green: 10%
BNP: 5%
Basically he will go for whatever ....that society as a whole would find "acceptable" in its journey of taking power back.
Think it is right that we should view the PM's intent as "deadly" serious . As serious as wanting to stop the banking system from collapse and wanting to make a success of the G20.