By Mike Smith
The Government needs to expand on Yvette Cooper's announcement last week and start to entrench our values and policies in law to stop a potential Tory government undoing Labour’s achievements of the last decade. One of the aims of the Labour project in the 1990s was to secure consecutive terms in office to change the landscape of British politics. If Labour could shift the ‘centre ground’ of political debate left, the Tories could never again starve the NHS and education of funding, ignore the suffering of swaths of the country in the name of economic efficiency and abandon the most vulnerable.
For a while it could be argued this approach had worked. After 3 election defeats, David Cameron was forced to move Conservative policies away (or at least give the illusion of moving away) from the traditional Tory right wing comfort zone by committing to Labour's public spending plans, accepting civil partnerships, expressing his concern over environmental issues and even ‘hugging a hoodie’ in recognition of the leftwards shift in the expectations and priorities of the electorate.
What a difference a crisis makes. Riding high in the polls in large part due to the Government's seemingly endless leadership 'crisis' has given the Tories the political space to use the economic crisis to renege on the commitment to match Labour’s investment in public services and retrench to a traditional conservative comfort zone of cuts and ‘thrift’. With the confusion and infighting at the top of the Labour party, there is now the possibility that Labour could lose the next general election without a real discussion about what a Tory government's policies (or lack thereof) will mean for Britain.
We must, of course, do everything we can to win the general election, but if we lose there is no limit to what the Tories could do. Parliamentary sovereignty means that the British people have no fundamental rights and there are no laws which parliament cannot change or abolish with a simple majority. Given this, the Tory response to this ‘unprecedented’ crisis could be truly terrifying and hugely damaging.
During the next year or so in power, the Government should pursue a twin approach of setting out our vision for a fourth Labour term if elected, but also entrenching the gains made so far under a Labour government. The proposals announced by Yvette Cooper to introduce a legal duty to tackle child poverty could provide a model to embed the gains made over the last 12 years. Of course, the Tories could always overturn these laws if in government. But at the very least this would force a debate and vote – with the scrutiny from parliament and (perhaps more significantly) in the media and the public. Such an approach could include for the NHS a requirement to provide certain levels of care, perhaps in the form of a ‘constitution’ for the health service. Similarly, a statutory requirement to provide pre-school education could secure the sure start programme and an independent body to scrutinise and enforce levels of the minimum wage could help prevent a constant downgrading of the wages of the poorest workers.
We must fight the Conservatives on the issues and our vision for the future for the right to continue to govern, demonstrating the positive changes since 1997 which simply would not have happened under a Conservative government. But in the year before the most dangerous general election for Labour in recent decades, we must also focus on how we secure and entrench the gains made so far, to ensure the Tories can’t undo these without a fight.
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Perhaps Mike could illustrate what is "whacko" about those first few replies.
The reason they keep the shape of Parliament is because it makes lawyers look good and everybody else bad - everybody else who haven't spent their working lives in the debating pit that is a court.
What would you class a general election then, if not a fight? It's bad enough that the next government is going to have to inherit a nearly trillion pounds of debt and a massive budget deficit, if they have to waste precious hours undoing Labour's spiteful 'policy laws' we might just come out of this as a third world country.
If you are not the best, do the decent thing and get out of the way so a better party can have a go. Entrenching your policies in law to try to force the Government that will replace your failed one is a childish fit of pique, silently admitting failure yet trying to have your own way even in defeat. If you were the best, you'd not need to do this.
Mike – yes this is my name. Unlike so many others I have no wish to hide myself behind some alias.
What I said was, and I quote from my post: “Yes you will try and say I have read it wrong. But this is a tactic that the BNP use all the time. Sprout nonsense then claim it was “taken in the wrong context” or “read wrong”, when in truth they do it on purpose to put out their real meaning, hoping that some will not question what they say.”
This is a tactic the BNP use all the time. What they do, is try to sow fear and hatred in a community by lying, lying and lying again and then shouting down (and usually threatening anyone) who opposes their view. They call foul, PC gone mad etc etc to try and move the debate on from what was said. It is (grudgingly) a good PR tactic and extremely unfortunately works for them.
What you said, tarred a whole lot of people by the same brush, you have now qualified your statement, and I applaud you for that, but you would not have done if I had not made an issue of it. I do not see racism where it does not exist, I see racism (meant or not) and stand up to it, and for that I have clear conscience.
As for your statement and again I quote
“Frankly your view is one of self serving arrogance. Who are you to define the standards of justice applied in other countries. They can take care of themselves without you sticking your oar in.”
I am not sticking my oar in their county, I am saying that as a county that respects peoples fundamental human rights, we do not believe that torture and execution is acceptable. Thus we will send someone back to a county where this would happen. If you don’t agree, well that is your problem. All your posts sink of the self-serving, selfishness of some on the British right (see how I did not tar everyone with one brush, good lesson for you) and I fundamentally abhor your politics and am frankly disgusted by it.
(and btw, I stopped posting last night, because I do have a life outside the computer)
Celia – if you actually take the time to look at the posts above, I quoted word for work from Mike’s post. I suggest, until you have something useful to contribute, you run along. Who are you to decide what someone meant or not. What is true is what is written, only Mike knows what was truly meant.
Now you have tried to make it clear I agree with you even less. You paint a picture of humanity I dont recognise and a world which is so nasty brutish and selfish its like something out of a Killer Zombie Flick or a Melanie Phillips article
Maybe both which is a really scary thought
Not about me, or my country... You patently represent neither of those entities.
Claims of racism and sexism et al, are simply used to divert away form the points in question and add
nothing to the debate. They are diversionary.
Engae with argument or don't - just don't divert.
but when the court of public opinion tell the prime Monster to have a general election,
they aint listenin' no more.
Well, we always knew that Britain would become the bolt hole of choice for international criminals to
escape justice in their own countries.
"... come on, come on in, if you dont like the laws of your own country, we will protect you, we care for you.
We actually care for you more than we care for our own people. We love you really and feel your pain...,
and when you feel like it, carry on your crime spree, and you know what we dont mind you can stay here and
continue even if we catch you... fancy a suspended sentence..."
It became apparent this week that our country is protecting perpetrators of Rwandan genocide,
we can't send them back.
Frankly your view is one of self serving arrogance. Who are you to define the standards of justice applied
in other countries. They can take care of themselves without you sticking your oar in.
Oh and before we get off the subject - this spineless government sign a one way extradition treaty with the
US to extradite alleged criminals with absolutely no supporting evidence. All the US have to do is say
that they are criminals and the British Government hand them over. Justice - dont make me laugh.
Typical of the left - just crap on everyone for your own selfish ideological purposes...
I firmly believe that if a written constitution were to be developed. It should firmmly limit the controls of the
state and not the people.
1,023 immigrants, who had absolutely no right to reside, were released by this government - murderers, rapists and paedophiles amongst them.
What is disgusting is this.
They raped, murdered and abused children after their release.
Too squeamish for you, how many more lives did they needlessly wreck, families, mums, dads, aunties, uncles, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, friends?
Just actually stop for a second and give it some thought. I did when it happened.
Now, actually think about HRA, it was designed to protect life - not unleash hell on the innocent.
So perhaps Peter, if you find this kind of truth 'insensitive' - take up flower arranging because trust me; this world is one truly disgusting place. It doesn't need the cosseted, self-congratulatory and naive bourgeoisie to sort it out and it needs the naivete of the HRA like a hole in the head.
I have been pushing Jack Straw onto taking action on a written constitution via a National Referendum project to be carried out with the Census (to save some money). The document presented to the public must be in draft form with remit to permit the public to add thier own views (even if a minority will treat such a document with contempt, many won't).
I agree fully with the need of a Constitutional Court.
There are many views we all share as British people and some of them fill me with great pride. I am in South Korea at the moment and get treated with great respect from the people here (more than the Americans ironically).
The devising of a Written Constitution REPRESENTATVIE of our core values and not devised for us by egomaniac MPs would be the greatest long lasting contribution we could all make for our country in it's entire history. It would protect our democracy and take our Constitution out of the political tennis court where it is being slapped from left to right in the most undignified and cheap manner.
You actually sound very reasonable in the post above but one. No blanket socialist dismissal (lots of non tories and even Labour voters dont think of themselves as socialists in that sense). I would appeal to your reason then to why those kind of remarks seem xenophobic and toxic. And this all started because Mike Thomas said
"Lest I remind you of the immigrant rapists and murders released back into the UK because their human rights would have been violated if sent back home.”
So hes qualified that and toned it down a little but youve got to admit that the term "immigrant rapists and murders" is insensitive and can be read as generic
Just explaining in my one troll free moment
It is. And no-one has. Whether 'the' or 'those' is used, there is no such insinuation. I'm sickened that someone should choose to look for one.
This is a very dangerous anti democratic idea that would have people rioting in the streets.
Peter Jukes and Alex Gilmore are the only ones throwing around accusations, smears and slurs; in Peter's case to grandstand an enormous ego to his US friends he was hot-linking to here; I wonder if Alex knew that?
Xenophobic?.. keep it up. You've lost the argument as soon as the smears start.
The logical extension of this argument is to use the Civil Contingencies Act to suspend the general election and to let Labour govern in perpetuity under the Dear Leader.....hmm, in that case, where are the barrels of gunpowder????
There is absolutely no logic to Alex's argument, and plenty of logic in the three responses below. Please feel free to point out where any of those three posts are wrong.
For: "...we must also focus on how we secure and entrench the gains made so far, to ensure the Tories can’t undo these without a fight."
Read: "we must make it as much of a pain as possible for a future democratically elected Government to carry out the manifesto upon which it is elected by the people".
It's desperate and it's arrogant.
Just reading their rubbish on here makes me physically sick
You can tell they belong with tweedle dum & tweedle dee(Arrogant Cameron & Osborne)the same nonsensical TWADDLE is spouted.
However it does let us know how their minds work!
Madhatter's tea party comes to mind
Definitely not a serious political party.
WE WILL MAKE SURE THEY'RE NEVER GET ELECTED
http://www.labourlist.org/do_we_really_need_another_anti-eu_party
"Do we really need another anti-EU party? | LabourList.org
Julian, re your call "Who is Celia Stobart", I am using a slight pseudonym as "Stobart" is my maiden name. Hubby wants to keep his family name as untainted ..."
Simple really.
So you really were lying right from the get go when you talked about pseudonyms?
Pretty funny stuff Hattie.
Youre making making a right of the fool of yourself!
The only shame is that noone else is paying attention by now. Shame
Don't worry I'll humiliate you at the top of another "thread"
Where is Peter Jukes by the way? When he gets here this is going to be pretty funny. I hope he's not a lawyer though because Labour List could be up $h*t creek.
Busy the rest of tonight
The relative lack of genuine trolls here means there are not anarchic spats, but lines of reasoned (and less reasoned) argument - how long can someone who can be bothered to read and participate resist the truth when it is so clearly spelt out...
(Having been doing this stuff since pre-internet dial up bulletin boards, IME the truth usually wins...)
If decent, hard working people regardless of where they come from and where they live were aware that this government was so incompetent that it releases murderers, rapist and paedophiles in to their community; I think they would be very concerned.
As for second and third generation migrants - I think they are also very concerned at the shambolic excuse for this government; seeing as many Asian and Sikh councillors have defected to the Tories over recent years.
Vitriol and poison? No, if you don't like the facts of real-politik take up flower-arranging. Vitriol and poison that comes from the likes of Peter Jukes and grandstanding his massive ego here for his US friends and then getting royally up-ended on his own argument. I wonder if Alex knew that Peter was using LabourList to big himself up on another blog?
I see Alex Gilmore (incidentally is that his real name or an alias for Paul Wragg?) has seen sense after doing his homework.
Perhaps then when a counter argument comes over; people on the left might not resort of disgusting smears.
Get the message; you have lost the argument.
A tad too similar to Harman's "court of public opinion" for my liking.
Parliament only has the power to govern us and is given that power by us.
All and any "laws" passed by labour over the last decade are not "laws".
They are statutes. A statute is only enforceable if given the consent of the people, therefore none of labours "laws, or values" can actually be made law, they can only be statutes. And tell me why labour signed us up to the human rights act when this country has a bill of rights?
Furthermore, on the issue of those who are deported suffering torture or death in their own country, that's really their problem. Let me make it clear, I don't support the judicial use of torture, especially - as in most places where it occurs- it is not subject to proper judicial oversight. However, if someone is granted the right to stay in Britain, this right is conditional on them obeying the law. If they choose to abuse the privilege - and it is such, for there are billions who have to live under systems far less liberal than our own - of being granted the right to live here by committing a serious breach of the law, then they can leave, and make way for a more deserving person.
If the benefits and effectiveness of NHS targets and Sure Start are really so unarguable one wonders why you need to entrench them.
Thats not really a reply to my point is it?
* Labour was elected in 2005 with the lowest % share of the vote and lowest % share of those eligible to vote (only a little over 1 person in 5 voted Labour) in history.
* Labour opinion poll ratings and local/EU election results are appalling, some of the lowest ever for a sitting government.
* The next general election will most likely result in a massive Labour defeat.
* Lots of Labour supporters say the public don't really like he Tories yet. In which case they must sure as hell hate Labour and what it stands for.
* The majority of the public believe Gordon Brown is damaging Britian and a majority want as general election asap.
So given all these rather damning bits of public sentiment and statistics, thinking it will be ok to bind the next goverment into retaining policies that the previous hated government enacted is pretty immoral.
I have no worry that the Tory government will remove a vast amount of rubbish from the statute books, my amazement comes from that Labour supporters actually think this is the thing to do, that the public want it and that no one could stop it.
As for argument ATT, I don't see any of yours anywhere.
What I do see is some silly A level psychology teacher (I still doubt whether it is a science) trying to play mind games because he/she hasn't a hope of defending this appalling government.
You claim to be new to LL yet you remember what I wrote months ago.
A Google search on (+"celia stobart" +husband) throws up nothing like you claim.
You are Peter Jukes.
Outed.
You forgot "..the Court of Public Opinion.." in your list of accomplishments...
I read through the comments, overwhelmingly against the idea in the article. I agree strongly with most. The idea of enshrining Labour values in some form of legal framework completely goes against the democratic principles our country stands on. Ditto any of that Euro nonsense. The idea that any of the current New Labour national
socialist "values" should be legally dignified is beyond a joke.
Extra points if anyone knows any policies they have for the future!
You are making claims about peoples attitudes to race that you know are not true (at least are not evidenced in their postings here) and making wild attacks vis. 'vitriolic' 'poisonous', 'hate'.
I suspect you really are just a troll, so logic is of no relevance to you, however if there is a brain in there somewhere - consider why you need to make things up to support your position/party.
Think about it - if you are so absolutely right why can't you make a rational case?
Just for a second let yourself consider that you have no rational argument because your premise is wrong.
What are you first and foremost - rational or labour?
Me - I'm rational first which is why I mostly support the tories - except where they are wrong, and those areas are where they most agree with labour.
So the question must rebound on you
"Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym? What are you so ashamed of?"
Not sure if any of this is true and remain convinced that the drag reference was there because of youre a bloke. But funny isnt it hypocrisy? Often the people that cry it are the ones to deny it.
Off to do some marking. Back to play later keep up the good work
I'm right
I'm far right
big space
/end of argument
Get a spine and say it rather than rely on the quintessential New Labour smears and slurs. Are you implying I am in some way connected to the BNP you shabby little excuse for sentient life?
I very strongly suggest that you go back some of my previous contributions here before you make that accusation.
Fact: 1,023 foreign criminals were released by this government.
Fact: Three murderers, nine rapists & five paedophiles were in the 1,023.
Fact: A majority of these criminals could not be deported due to specific legislation in the HRA.
They could have lived here, remained within the law and that would have been fine. They knew the terms and conditions of their visa, they knew if they broke the law; they would be going home to whatever it was they left from.
Now of you think that it's ok to let these people out after they have served their term, fine. My principles of protecting the innocent from the guilty are clearly more defined than yours.
Throwing accusation of sympathies for the BNP are stock in trade of some of the intellectually bereft and ideologically bankrupt left wing people that think we are remotely supportive of their divisive, venal, self-serving and self interested political beliefs.
So Alex, get of the pot and tell us what you really think?
Remember you better do your homework first.
Example of all three signs of defeat below
Attributing quotes to people that they neither said or meant gets you nowhere.
I think it should also be understood that Gordon Brown has done a similar thing but with income tax and inheritance tax. Income tax brackets are not linked to inflation and have cost normal working people millions due to inflation as more and more people are now in higher tax brackets with no increase in living standards. Again it is true for inheritance tax, with house prices soaring this tax is no longer only paid by the very rich, you even have to pay the tax before receiving the inheritance meaning selling loved ones houses.
Before you spew bile about the Tories hurting the low paid you should look at own your door first. I haven't even mentioned the 10p tax debacle, a good idea but removed hurting millions of low paid people - including me - for nothing more than a cheap political stunt, a disgraceful act and one that has cost Labour my vote.
We already have the Lisbon Treaty rammed through Parliament without the option of a vote, despite promising it in the Labour manifesto
Retain the power and you'll push it even further?
NuLiebour New danger!
The Labour Party has no mandate for parliamentary reform, but you are suggesting that this doesn't matter?
It is filthy to insinuate that all immigrants are rapists and murderers
I quote ” Lest I remind you of the immigrant rapists and murders released back into the UK because their human rights would have been violated if sent back home.”
Maybe you phased it wrong, but you should have said something along the lines of “ let I remind you of THOSE immigrant………..”
Yes you will try and say I have read it wrong. But this is a tactic that the BNP use all the time. Sprout nonsense then claim it was “taken in the wrong context” or “read wrong”, when in truth they do it on purpose to put out their real meaning, hoping that some will not question what they say.
What you said was wrong, say that and fair enough you are a more than a petty person. Don’t and I think we all know what type of person you really are.
The point these people staying (in prison remember, not “just let out”) is to stop them suffering from likely torture or death in their home country. If this is what you are advocating, well I really do pitty you. I would also have to say I am sorry to live in the same country as someone such as yourself.
The point, as you clearly missed it, about civil liberties is that you complain on the one hand about the HRA, and then use it to try and beat the government with. Make your mind up as you cannot have it both ways. I am not going to get into a discussion about what we have or have not done as I actually don’t agree with quite a lot of it. You however need to get your argument straight.
Your arrogance is astounding.
The people want to see the undoing of Labour’s "achievements". What right do you have to make that difficult to do.
So it's filthy to complain that non-UK resident that are released due to government cock up then go on to rape, murder and seriously assault is Ok? In your world and what a perverted evil little world Labour have created especially with apologists for rapists and murderers like you around.
These people had right to reside IF they do not break the law, that is part of the terms and conditions of a UK Visa. If they do break the law then they are deported.
In terms of Labour as guardian of civil liberties? 90 days? 42 days? ID Cards? ContactPoint? Monitoring E-mails and phone calls? Government lies on Rendition?
Pathetic.
He doesn't have a constituional bone in his body.
Most of the ideas expressed on this site constantly confirm to me that there is absolutely no chance of a new constitution ever being agreed.
A written constitutional document is a flawed concept in itself, it is impossible to codify concepts with sufficient accuracy. On top of that the actually content that the lefties would want it to include would be too stupid for words.
As for making laws so they cannot be changed without debate and a vote - what about all the statutory instruments Labour have built into most of their other laws so ministers can change the laws however they like without reference back to parliament?
In case you did not know, British people commit crimes as well, actually the vast majority of crimes. The vast majority if those that have moved here and commit crimes, get deported. Some don’t, I suppose you believe in torture and capital punishment, as this is why some are allowed to stay, but mostly stay in jail.
Maybe you believe in capital punishment, I certainly don’t. I also believe in the human rights act, the very thing no less that you refer to when you whine and moan that your civil liberties are being eroded by this government. Or is this why the tories want to repeal the HRA and replace it. Take basic human rights away from certain people and send them somewhere else to die. Cameron never did explain why he wanted to repeal it and change it.
You are a poor excuse for a person.
Labour is a busted flush, you might be a fan-boy with a poster of Gordon on your bedroom wall.
The rest of the country is utterly and completely livid with him and his useless government.
As for 'progressive politics', who said Labour had the monopoly on 'progressive politics'?
He didn't read the article in the first place, Alex! but just let go with both barrels, firing blind, as usual.
You miss the beauty of it. Where the policy is popular and generally (not by the upper class ar$e hole$) though of as right, the opposition will not have the guts to repeal it.
For example, if the Minimum wage is linked to earnings, it would have to go up rather than the likely reality of an Osborne n11, where he leaves it static and in effect it dies on the vine. The tories would never repeal it, because they accept people like it, but they could easily undermine it. If you put this in law, they would need an act of parliament to hurt it and thus the certain media and public outcry (and please don’t anyone say, no-one would care if it was repealed)
Thank God.
Of course Brian, you are all in favour of entrenchment. You are all in favour of constitutions being foisted on people without them having a say first. My experience of those shouting 'Liar!' first are usually the very ones lying through their very teeth.
After all, you will not debate with anyone that can see through the tissue of deceits and lies you post on here.
As for HRA, well, I guess Labour would like criminals to exploit their rights at the expense of their victims. It's a disgusting piece of ill-conceived, badly considered legislation that has become the hallmark of this ridiculous, shabby and thoroughly incompetent government.
Lest I remind you of the immigrant rapists and murders released back into the UK because their human rights would have been violated if sent back home.
Perhaps you'd stand up in a room and tell the families and victims of the people they subsequently raped or murdered that entrenchment of HRA would be a good thing.
Get over yourself.
The Human Rights Act would be a natural candidate for entrenchment; probably also the laws establishing our membership of the EU and the UN. I doubt though whether detailed and potentially party-politically controversial legislation could properly be entrenched, and trying to entrench laws governing how much future governments should be compelled to spend on which specified purposes would obviously give rise to difficulties, probably insuperable ones.
However before we can use the valuable tool of entrenchment, we must move to a written constitution enforceable in our (new) Supreme Court; and the danger of that is that we might find ourselves setting in concrete all the anomalies and injustices of our present constitutional arrangements before we have had a chance to repair them.
Anyway, there's nothing whatever to sneer at in Mike's thought-provoking post. It's the sneerers -- especially the anonymous ones -- who lay themselves open to ridicule. Tory papers please copy.
Brian
http://www.barder.com/ephems/
Seeing as he isn't going to use his real name and anti tory troll isn't that creative.
I am going to call him Tigger. Wants to be endearing but is really irritating, bounces around a lot and achieves nothing.
Seems a perfect name for him.
Is this what it has come to? Are you all so bereft of intellect that the best you can hope for is to attempt to use legalese to cement your failed government's failed policies in perpetuity? This is the same party that promised electoral reform in 1997 and then failed to deliver. This is the same party that promised to reform the House of Lords and stuffed it with appointed cronies.
The only claim Labour had when it came to power was a moral one, and twelve years of Labour has ended that. You have no moral compass left. All you can imagine now is clinging on to power. Oh, you claim it's about the country, but in reality - which Golden Brown can't even view with a telescope any more - it's about power.
The longer you hang on the more despised and reviled Labour will be and the longer it will take them to return from this. Remember what happened in 1979. There were eighteen years of Conservative rule after Labour's dismal failures. How long will the Conservatives be in power this time? 25 years?
Sorry to say Irene Handel is the visual image I have in mind. I never for the life of me imagined that Celia Stobart was your real name. No offense. Sounded made up. But I think youll find there's a lot of pseudonyms round here so don't be too shocked/
I've been troll hunting for years on Conservative Home and GF but under a different name. Enjoy the suspense while it lasts
You said you were something to do with CA. Do you write for the press? If you do I should give you some stories. Got a locker full of them
Thanks by the way for putting me in your handle. I'm making lots of new friends here. Laurie Penny is in love with me. Someone called Alistair is intrigued. The only ones who don't like me are the self declared tory trolls
Now you see how these pseudonyms work eh?
Thanks for the bigging up and keep the awesome craziness going. I love this site now
It expresses the fervent hope that this is just the misguided idea of a confused individual, and not part of my Lord Mandelson's great Master Plan.
Irene isn't my Handel, as you can see. I use my name. Unlike you. Hypocrite.
I didn't say "only".
You may have been 'troll hunting' for years, but not as "anti tory troll".
Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym? What are you so ashamed of?
Dead wood press.
Well, thats rich coming from this Monty-Pythonesque and Stalinated Labour Party who shoe-horned all the above anti-terrorism legislation and RIPA through parliament on the 'QT' in the hope that nobody would notice.
The only way that Lord Meddlsome as the 'Secret & True Dear Leader' would be to try and sieze control in a coup, and abolish Parliament, Civil Liberties, the Rule of Law and announce himself as the 'True King of Scotland, England Ireland, France, Wales and the World. (Of course McRuin would have to held in the Tower of London).
Of course McRuin and Pals aren't that stupid.... or are they?? (all alleged of course)
I've been troll hunting for years so Jukes didn't start it.
What's televisual?
"By their words shall we know them", as you are so fond of saying. How deliciously ironic!
So are you an anti-tory_troll, or an anti_tory-troll, or just a troll?
(Do you take Televisual? Check out June 2008!)
If a government dislikes a law, they will simply repeal it. Enacting your values into statute as a means of entrenching them is therefore pointless.
Take for instance the fox hunting ban. I personally thought the idea of the law was sound. However, it was so poorly drafted as to fail in it's central purpose. The Tories will use this as a fig leaf to repeal the act in order to curry favour with their natural constituency. Simple.
Ed Balls talks about letting the Tories off the hook by fighting in the party but to my mind its Labour that are being let off the hook as well, what is Labour policy? The Tories outline a fairly simple policy of ringfencing NHS and ID spending and Labour jump down their throats, Labour are in Government and when they're asked how they would deal with the mountain of debt they got us into it is them who are silent. All we get is pathetic "Mr 10%" jibes designed to con the electorate.
What like a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (or its latest manifestation)
like top up fees for further education
Like the sell off of school playing fields
Like more officers on the beat
Like mixed sex wards in hospitals
Like narrowing the gap between rich and poor
Like british jobs for british workers
Like the deprting of foriegn criminals
Broken promises and damned damned lies....
So you cant deliver on the policies - with more legisaltion enacted in the last 12 years than in the previous 300
With anti-terrorost legisaltion used to snoop in my bin, this is the britain that you wanted.
This labour government is the most morally corrupt and malign government this country has ever known.
And you sneer at those who dont believe that the left has the solution.
But what if a future government is elected with specific mention in their manifesto of repealing ill thought out Labour policy? Wouldn't their election be seen as a mandate from the electorate to do exactly that?
This is the trouble. You say "these things are actually right and popular..", and I disagree that they are right! It is an ideological matter. But you should not debate progressive politics without being willing to challenge the whole basis of those politics, to think outside the box as it were. Dissenting voices are extremely valuable in this regard.
Moreover, are Sure Start and, particularly, the Child Tax credit really so undeniably brilliant and effective policies that they should have near constitutional protection? There's been various independent analysis of both to suggest that the money could be better directed.
If you are going to consider tieing the hands of successive governments - which I'm not particularly keen on anyway - it should at least only be done on the basis of broad principles around which there is a consensus, certainly not to particular policies that you may happen to support but remain controversial even in your own party.
cynically enacting laws which would hinder that parliamnet in its duties.
Lets face fact - the gap between rich and poor has widened in 12 years not narrowed,
society is less mobile not more - the law proposed by Frau Cooper achieves nothing.
It is not legisaltion which will help people out of poverty, but positive action. However the whole problem will goa away soon, because if the country gets any more into debt we'll all be in poverty - and with the goal to make everybody equal. The government will have achieved its ambition.
If you don't like - well, you should have been just a little more than incompetent in government, we would have been happy with mediocre compared to the utter disaster this government have visited upon us.
Oh give over, Labour are desperate to avoid an election at any cost.
I truly believe you can't get your head around the fact that anyone in their right mind might find socialism repugnant?
That sizeable grouping who vote Tory are not going to bothered in the slightest about removinh some of your socialist poison from the statute books.
What I do find hilarious though is after 12 years in power only now in the last few days of NuLabour's Third Reich do you send instructions from the bunker for a scorched earth policy.
Actaully the Third Reich comparison is extremely unfair, evil as the Nazi's were they at least were efficient. I think the better comparison is to the Germans in Allo Allo. Ed Balls is clearly Herr Flick and Harman does remind me of Helga. What chance that Jackboot Jacqui's husband was watching a porn film entitled "The Fallen Madonna with Zee Big boobies"?
Of course Allo Allo was a comic farce and this Labour government is ........ nope can't think of a way of ending that sentence.
Have you not seen the various articles about GB for example, or asking what is the labour party for?
We are putting into law, the policies that this government were elected on. If you don’t like it, tough. As I have said, if a tory government don’t like it, they can change the law with a parliamentary vote, but I imagine they will not as these things are actually right and popular..
Yvette's pronouncements are fairyland spin and nothing more
You can pass all these articles into law, but you can not force the government of any colour to conform to these rules because the government is sovereign, and because of this it would simply have to prove in a Court of Law that it has spent all the money available to it.
To suggest otherwise would actually mean that you see no benefit in the law system of this country...and thus why would you pass these articles into Law?
On top of this you are suggesting that Parliament is no longer Sovereign, and effectively you are withdrawing it's democratic mandate to effect change
What do you see replacing it?
Moral values do not legislating for, but those who transgress should be available for prosecution...even if they are members of Parliament or the Lords
Maybe we should have a demonstration on the standards set by Tehran, and then maybe this delinquent parliament will be dissolved
We may no longer think that heads on poles are what we do, but this government and parliament must be held to account for what they have done, and that must be done at the ballot box.
“but posting in favour of criminalising the opposition is an so called democracy is an intelligent option?”
Please direct me to the point where I or the author have said this. I think you are pulling quotes out of mid-air. (note I said myself or the author – if there is a post below, I am not responsible for this person and as with all sides there are extreme elements)
In case you missed it. The point was to put into law the policies we want to see happen and to help prevent future governments destroying them. They can of course overturn these policies with a parliamentary majority, but of course, you (and the others) know that these things are popular with most people and I would say the right thing to do (but you will start, to borrow a phrase from above, frothing at the mouth again). You cannot overturn them because the public opinion would crucify you. This is what we believe in, we are the elected government and frankly we do not care what you think.
Alex, will you stop publishing emotive crap and some decent copy?
A state sector in some areas of the UK bigger than the old Soviet Union had
The UK's finances wrecked and massive debt waiting for us all.
The current government and PM the most reviled in living memory and only scoring 15% in a national election.
The reason Alex that right wingers appear on these sites is the absolute revulsion so many people hold you, your party and your leader in at the moment.
Your responses to OH are also an example, because your idea of a "debate on progressive politics" is *within* the framework of those politics. It does not seem to occur to you that other approaches might be valid. So it is easy to "troll" you, simply by disagreeing. Hence, you attract "trolls".
But not all "trolls" are simply here to wind you up. For instance, I would say that the "British Constitution" should not enshrine "Labour values" at all. Instead, it should be a long list of things that any British Government is not permitted to do, similar to the US Constitution or Magna Carta. Somehow, I doubt this will occur, since the document is being written by a "Labour minded person" and Labour has never been interested in limiting the powers of Government. I think this is an entirely valid point to make on the subject of this article and its author, but since it is outside the framework of leftist politics, it is no doubt a "troll".
We are not taking away you liberty, we are putting into law the policies we were elected to do. If you don’t like it, help someone else win an election and over-turn them. But a word of warning, as with the 10% education cuts in the 1990’s, people don’t like it.
Because we care, we will make it as hard for you as possible to go back on a lot of the good work we have done. As Cameron is a spinless, PR driven creep, he will not do it.
One that demands consideration and a conjugating of the facts which support the point-
or indeed is this a rabid, barking attempt to stifle debate and impose on the sheeple a totalitarian state
for the benefit of you only. (hoping for a minor role in the state apparatchik?
Opposing tyranny is not idiotic - trying to import it via stealth is -
You see New labour conspiracy this and new labour conspiracy that. We come here to debate progressive politics and you come here to do nothing but complain and get very agitated. I don’t go onto right of centre head bashing websites and complain at the posts and articles because I would not enjoy it. Why do you?
We treat you like idiots because you act like idiots. This is a place for reasoned debate, but we can’t have reasoned debate with people who have no reason to your “arguments”. Act like civilised people, and maybe we will not treat you like idiots. Act like an idiot and don’t complain when you get treated as such.
Fact: - The bankers operated within the framework that was provided for them --- by who? I hear you ask. By Mr. Gordon Brown
Fact: - The treasury reaped billions in taxes from the city money machine. Why were they producing so much? I hear you ask. Becasue they were provided a framework and they worked within it.
If you overextended yourself on credit, or bought a house that was just a little too expensive. Wnated that plasma tv? or that new three piece suite.
Well - you helped fuel the credit crisis. as recession started to bite and the jobs get fewer,
the ability to repay that credit gets puts under pressure.
These were the policies of a Labour government - massive expansion of the economy based on increased availabilty of credit backed by an almost inexorable rise in house prices. All of this since 1997. Hold on who was in power since then... Oh yeah I remember...
Win the debate through argument and sound policy - and dont just change the rules if you dont get the result you want.
If the labour party have a sound vision for the future that they can sell to the public without criminalising dissent
then they deserve to win the next election.
If they cannot it would be immoral and unethical to bind future parliaments and the population with an ideology that is
neither wanted nor works.
Why should you take away my rights of political freedom in a sad defence of your own failed dogma.
The left continually takes the extreme position, will you force the nation to arms in defence of its hard won freedoms?
To name but a few
Mike Thomas???????
Martin Bourke??????????
tory troll????????????
Peter B???????
Old Holborn?????
George Woodhouse????????
Guy M??????????
You are never going to ready anything you like, what is the interest? Or are you so short of things to do (maybe you are the unemployed bankers who really F***** this country and now have nothing better to file your time with). Why waste your time spouting your nonsense here?
This is a great idea and one that I have read on other progressive sites (compass to name but one).
Laws can always be changed, but what we can do it make it so high profile for the tories to change, they will not want to do it. Do the above and they would not have the guts to put the reverse through parliament, because the media and public would crucify them
I would add, ensure that the minimum wage, child tax credits, pensions (etc etc) are linked to earnings so Osborne cannot let these great policies “wither on the vine” (we know they are hostile to the minimum wage and will not update it each year as we do).
Fundamentally change the post office to turn it back into a true public service it should be. Yes the age of mail may be over, but we could do things like making it into a “peoples bank”, ensuring that pensions, and other benefits and tax credits, (for those, and there will always be those, who would rather go to the post office) are available from the post office. We must ensure that the tories are not able to privatise the post office (frankly we have given them every encouragement).
We must also cancel the welfare reform bill and make it difficult for the tories to dump millions on IB again. Reverse the policy on city academies and cancel ID cards (though this will not actually save that much as most of the money comes from people paying for them).
Simply, we must fight the next election as a Labour Government and in the run up ensure that the many good things we have done, cannot be easily destroyed by tory cuts and “efficiency savings”
I notice not a single comment of support for you article.
In case you didn´t realise it Mr Lefty Smith, WE DO STILL LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY even though Labour has done it´s utmost to kill most of our personal freedoms.
Brown has bankrupted us (yes he was in charge of the purse strings and banking policy), don´t pass the buck to America.
Smith has done more to turn the UK into her version of 1984 than Orwell even dared in his novel
Balls et al have completely knackered our education system. Your child poverty solutions have made things worse. The gap between the rich and poor has widened under this greedy government. The only people better off are the politicians and bankers.
Straw and his predecessors have managed to allow more criminals to escape going to prison than any other govt.
Your immigration policies have led to the downfall of essential services and a rise in employment and diseases.
I could go on, but I was in a good mood till I read this. Tell you what Mr Smith, go live in a left wing country and do your damage there. We British are not socialists at heart and you will find that the more inane and desperate your rhetoric becomes, the more you will lose votes...
I do not want your vision of the future and neither does any sane person that i know.
This lot are the worst government this country has ever had!
One of the essential tennets of our democracy is that no parliament can bind another. If you can't "get" that, then I want the likes of you NOWHERE NEAR a constitution.
Personally I hope for a bonfire of Labour's unecessary, excessive and poorly drafted legislation much of which is entirely alien to British values. Legislation so poor that anti-terrorist messures can be used for everything from freezing Icelandic bank accounts to snooping in someone's bin.
And you won't have any choice over spending as you've bankrupted us. If you carry on like now, it'll be the IMF and not parliament that decides on cuts.
No, REALLY. I'm not joking!
Don't worry, Mike Smith, the Tories are exactly the same as Labour. They're not going to undo any of your great work when you lose the next election.
They have the stupidity to attack the right with plenty of invective and reactionary language.
This article is steeped in the language of despots and dictators.
What do you expect of a party with a leader who is scared of a popular mandate and reneges on promises of referenda?
Anti-democrats the lot of them.
It's the only explanation for this stream of mad ideas that must have been written to ensure a Tory general election win.
"Parliamentary sovereignty means that the British people have no fundamental rights and there are no laws which parliament cannot change or abolish with a simple majority"
So that would cover all NuLabour's laws over the last parliament then? Elected with approximately 21% of the voter base yet with a "simple majority" Labour have screwed up the country.
Now you propose to use the "simple majority" to try to impose your will on the next democratically elected government for fear of them using a "simple majority" to govern with the same freedom Labour has abused for 12 years?
Do you wonder whether this sort of nonsense is why Labour support has collapsed?
Left wing thought repeats itself again, every time convinced it is doing the 'common good'. Ofc whats makes these people so dangerous is they they genuinely believe that their totalitarian measures are for the 'common good'.
a) Cost savings
b) Profit making services being introduced
c) External funding, (for example through insurance or PFI).
So if your proposals are implemented you would also need to grasp the funding nettle. If you don't all that public sector managers will be forced to do is find the money for the leglislated areas by starving non-legislated areas. This would benefit no-one.
You want to effectively stop all debate and all alternative thinking to your own, by striking into law an ideology. The upshot of which would be to make illegal all other ideologies that differ from your own?
The imposition of thought crime and the criminalisation of opposition to an ideology.
You really frighten me!............
But anyway, I have to ask Mike, does it not bother you in the slightest that your Government has no popular mandate, and that it can only do any of this by denying the electorate an election?
Does it not shame you that you cannot win the argument so you have to use the law to make people agree with you?
Which is it, Mike?
Do you seriously want opposing views to yours to made illegal, or are you just a naughty tease?
Thought crime.
All socialists get around to it eventually
That is either meaningless or totalitarian.
Fortunately, it is more the former than the latter.
Yes, I can imagine this lot ****ing in the filing cabinets on their way out.
I don't think that this sort of scorched earth policy will go down at all well with the electorate.
That's an outrageous use of statistics!!! After taking turnout into account Labour gained a whopping 5% of the vote in the recent elections.
One thing about your idea to entrench your policies into law?
Isn't that the actual point of government?
Here's something for you to chew over.
The British people decide who governs them, what policies they pursue and they seek a new mandate from government every 5 years on the performance of that political party
What you are suggesting is total contempt for the will of the people. The fact that child poverty is worsening under current Labour policy isn't that actually just to going to waste Parliamentary time and make things worse for the people you are trying to help.
Labour is a political party it is not a permanent government. Get over yourself. You are not wanted by the electorate and yet you cling to power for power's sake, self interest over national interest.
If only there were something worthwhile for that to matter, after 12 long years Labour's 'legacy' will be permawar, a financial crisis (that started in Gordon's Brain) and Labour's proudest achievement; everything a future government could possibly need for a police state.
Oh yeah, 1999s minimum wage was a good idea.
That beats anything the BNP can come up with in the totalitarian stakes. I'm going to blog this and you won't like it.