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Entrench Labour policy in law

By Mike Smith

The Government needs to expand on Yvette Cooper's announcement last week and start to entrench our values and policies in law to stop a potential Tory government undoing Labour’s achievements of the last decade. One of the aims of the Labour project in the 1990s was to secure consecutive terms in office to change the landscape of British politics. If Labour could shift the ‘centre ground’ of political debate left, the Tories could never again starve the NHS and education of funding, ignore the suffering of swaths of the country in the name of economic efficiency and abandon the most vulnerable. 

For a while it could be argued this approach had worked. After 3 election defeats, David Cameron was forced to move Conservative policies away (or at least give the illusion of moving away) from the traditional Tory right wing comfort zone by committing to Labour's public spending plans, accepting civil partnerships, expressing his concern over environmental issues and even ‘hugging a hoodie’ in recognition of the leftwards shift in the expectations and priorities of the electorate.

What a difference a crisis makes. Riding high in the polls in large part due to the Government's seemingly endless leadership 'crisis' has given the Tories the political space to use the economic crisis to renege on the commitment to match Labour’s investment in public services and retrench to a traditional conservative comfort zone of cuts and ‘thrift’. With the confusion and infighting at the top of the Labour party, there is now the possibility that Labour could lose the next general election without a real discussion about what a Tory government's policies (or lack thereof) will mean for Britain.  

We must, of course, do everything we can to win the general election, but if we lose there is no limit to what the Tories could do.  Parliamentary sovereignty means that the British people have no fundamental rights and there are no laws which parliament cannot change or abolish with a simple majority. Given this, the Tory response to this ‘unprecedented’ crisis could be truly terrifying and hugely damaging.

During the next year or so in power, the Government should pursue a twin approach of setting out our vision for a fourth Labour term if elected, but also entrenching the gains made so far under a Labour government. The proposals announced by Yvette Cooper to introduce a legal duty to tackle child poverty could provide a model to embed the gains made over the last 12 years. Of course, the Tories could always overturn these laws if in government. But at the very least this would force a debate and vote – with the scrutiny from parliament and (perhaps more significantly) in the media and the public. Such an approach could include for the NHS a requirement to provide certain levels of care, perhaps in the form of a ‘constitution’ for the health service. Similarly, a statutory requirement to provide pre-school education could secure the sure start programme and an independent body to scrutinise and enforce levels of the minimum wage could help prevent a constant downgrading of the wages of the poorest workers. 

We must fight the Conservatives on the issues and our vision for the future for the right to continue to govern, demonstrating the positive changes since 1997 which simply would not have happened under a Conservative government. But in the year before the most dangerous general election for Labour in recent decades, we must also focus on how we secure and entrench the gains made so far, to ensure the Tories can’t undo these without a fight.

Posted on Jun 16, 2009 at 09:09am

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Well said David, I think you are right on all counts

Perhaps Mike could illustrate what is "whacko" about those first few replies.
Span Ows @ 33 weeks and 3 days ago
The Tories will not repeal the Human Rights Act - both parties are full of lawyers and the HRA is nothing if not a way of lawyers getting rich.

The reason they keep the shape of Parliament is because it makes lawyers look good and everybody else bad - everybody else who haven't spent their working lives in the debating pit that is a court.
Jonathan Morse @ 33 weeks and 3 days ago
You clearly misunderstand the statement. The Rights of the public inherently limit the power of the State. Go read a law book.
Ralph Baldwin @ 33 weeks and 3 days ago
"to ensure the Tories can’t undo these without a fight."

What would you class a general election then, if not a fight? It's bad enough that the next government is going to have to inherit a nearly trillion pounds of debt and a massive budget deficit, if they have to waste precious hours undoing Labour's spiteful 'policy laws' we might just come out of this as a third world country.
Mark Moore @ 33 weeks and 3 days ago
Trying to entrench a political party's beliefs in law is nothing more or less than an admission of complete and abject failure of that party's policies. The idea of politics is to organise the way a country is run in that way which benefits the people of that country most, and which is therefore the optimal way of running the country. To summarise, if you want to be re-elected, be the best.

If you are not the best, do the decent thing and get out of the way so a better party can have a go. Entrenching your policies in law to try to force the Government that will replace your failed one is a childish fit of pique, silently admitting failure yet trying to have your own way even in defeat. If you were the best, you'd not need to do this.
Doc h @ 33 weeks and 5 days ago
I will answer you both at once.

Mike – yes this is my name. Unlike so many others I have no wish to hide myself behind some alias.

What I said was, and I quote from my post: “Yes you will try and say I have read it wrong. But this is a tactic that the BNP use all the time. Sprout nonsense then claim it was “taken in the wrong context” or “read wrong”, when in truth they do it on purpose to put out their real meaning, hoping that some will not question what they say.”

This is a tactic the BNP use all the time. What they do, is try to sow fear and hatred in a community by lying, lying and lying again and then shouting down (and usually threatening anyone) who opposes their view. They call foul, PC gone mad etc etc to try and move the debate on from what was said. It is (grudgingly) a good PR tactic and extremely unfortunately works for them.

What you said, tarred a whole lot of people by the same brush, you have now qualified your statement, and I applaud you for that, but you would not have done if I had not made an issue of it. I do not see racism where it does not exist, I see racism (meant or not) and stand up to it, and for that I have clear conscience.

As for your statement and again I quote

“Frankly your view is one of self serving arrogance. Who are you to define the standards of justice applied in other countries. They can take care of themselves without you sticking your oar in.”

I am not sticking my oar in their county, I am saying that as a county that respects peoples fundamental human rights, we do not believe that torture and execution is acceptable. Thus we will send someone back to a county where this would happen. If you don’t agree, well that is your problem. All your posts sink of the self-serving, selfishness of some on the British right (see how I did not tar everyone with one brush, good lesson for you) and I fundamentally abhor your politics and am frankly disgusted by it.

(and btw, I stopped posting last night, because I do have a life outside the computer)

Celia – if you actually take the time to look at the posts above, I quoted word for work from Mike’s post. I suggest, until you have something useful to contribute, you run along. Who are you to decide what someone meant or not. What is true is what is written, only Mike knows what was truly meant.
Alex Gilmore @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Blimey John. I should talk to you more often. I just said "immigrant rapists and murderers" sounded a bit like a description of all immigrants. Not your intention but imagine if I'd written "Tory Perverts and Paedophiles". There must be some of course, but it sounds like I'm tarring ALL Tories with that name. So John its one of those cases where something sounds very xenophobic and I understand where Alex is coming from. If you didnt mean that by all means try to make it clear.

Now you have tried to make it clear I agree with you even less. You paint a picture of humanity I dont recognise and a world which is so nasty brutish and selfish its like something out of a Killer Zombie Flick or a Melanie Phillips article

Maybe both which is a really scary thought
anti tory troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Care about what? ...about whom?

Not about me, or my country... You patently represent neither of those entities.
Alan M @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Stop diverting the argument!!!

Claims of racism and sexism et al, are simply used to divert away form the points in question and add
nothing to the debate. They are diversionary.

Engae with argument or don't - just don't divert.
Alan M @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Isnt it funny - that 'Court of public opinion will judge Fred Goodwin'
but when the court of public opinion tell the prime Monster to have a general election,
they aint listenin' no more.
Alan M @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.......

Well, we always knew that Britain would become the bolt hole of choice for international criminals to
escape justice in their own countries.

"... come on, come on in, if you dont like the laws of your own country, we will protect you, we care for you.
We actually care for you more than we care for our own people. We love you really and feel your pain...,
and when you feel like it, carry on your crime spree, and you know what we dont mind you can stay here and
continue even if we catch you... fancy a suspended sentence..."

It became apparent this week that our country is protecting perpetrators of Rwandan genocide,
we can't send them back.

Frankly your view is one of self serving arrogance. Who are you to define the standards of justice applied
in other countries. They can take care of themselves without you sticking your oar in.

Oh and before we get off the subject - this spineless government sign a one way extradition treaty with the
US to extradite alleged criminals with absolutely no supporting evidence. All the US have to do is say
that they are criminals and the British Government hand them over. Justice - dont make me laugh.

Typical of the left - just crap on everyone for your own selfish ideological purposes...
Alan M @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
"A written Constitution must be composed of all the values, rights and responsibilites of the British Public. "

I firmly believe that if a written constitution were to be developed. It should firmmly limit the controls of the
state and not the people.
Alan M @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Entrenching policy into law is undemocratic,and stinks of old eastern block politics, if the public want it changed they would have great difficulty,Brown, the great leader[ as depicted in private eye every 2 weeks],would im sure love to rule for ever and entrench Britain into a one party state, competition is healthy.BY THE WAY IM NOT A TORY TROLL
martin lewis @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
How is it insensitive?

1,023 immigrants, who had absolutely no right to reside, were released by this government - murderers, rapists and paedophiles amongst them.

What is disgusting is this.

They raped, murdered and abused children after their release.

Too squeamish for you, how many more lives did they needlessly wreck, families, mums, dads, aunties, uncles, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, friends?

Just actually stop for a second and give it some thought. I did when it happened.

Now, actually think about HRA, it was designed to protect life - not unleash hell on the innocent.

So perhaps Peter, if you find this kind of truth 'insensitive' - take up flower arranging because trust me; this world is one truly disgusting place. It doesn't need the cosseted, self-congratulatory and naive bourgeoisie to sort it out and it needs the naivete of the HRA like a hole in the head.
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Hi Mike - the best way to prevent excessive trolling is to ignore it rather than react; or to respond with humour and common sense rather than agression. Also, if the articles actually do aim at 'helping Labour minded and left of centre people discuss political issues' that helps! When we have articles like the above which is based on fighting the Conservatives, we can't be surprised when the Tory trolls fight back.
David Honour @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
A written Constitution must be composed of all the values, rights and responsibilites of the British Public. The difficulty is convincing the politicians to trust the public in being involved in this. Ironic, when the politicians themselves have brought our Parliament into the gutter.
I have been pushing Jack Straw onto taking action on a written constitution via a National Referendum project to be carried out with the Census (to save some money). The document presented to the public must be in draft form with remit to permit the public to add thier own views (even if a minority will treat such a document with contempt, many won't).
I agree fully with the need of a Constitutional Court.
There are many views we all share as British people and some of them fill me with great pride. I am in South Korea at the moment and get treated with great respect from the people here (more than the Americans ironically).

The devising of a Written Constitution REPRESENTATVIE of our core values and not devised for us by egomaniac MPs would be the greatest long lasting contribution we could all make for our country in it's entire history. It would protect our democracy and take our Constitution out of the political tennis court where it is being slapped from left to right in the most undignified and cheap manner.
Ralph Baldwin @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Once again the majority of posts on this thread have come from spoiler Tory trolls - the purpose of this blog is, surely , for Labour-minded and left-of-centre people to discuss political issues, not to waste time arguing with right-wing whackos?
Mike Homfray @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
If you look around Tory Troll there are attacks on the BNPA all over this site. People are regularly mocked or disbelieved for being gay. Theres a whole strand where former colonies are told to be thankful for the graces of empire. Others are regularly told to they are disgusting and stink like sewage.

You actually sound very reasonable in the post above but one. No blanket socialist dismissal (lots of non tories and even Labour voters dont think of themselves as socialists in that sense). I would appeal to your reason then to why those kind of remarks seem xenophobic and toxic. And this all started because Mike Thomas said

"Lest I remind you of the immigrant rapists and murders released back into the UK because their human rights would have been violated if sent back home.”

So hes qualified that and toned it down a little but youve got to admit that the term "immigrant rapists and murders" is insensitive and can be read as generic

Just explaining in my one troll free moment
anti tory troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
'It is filthy to insinuate that all immigrants are rapists and murderers'
It is. And no-one has. Whether 'the' or 'those' is used, there is no such insinuation. I'm sickened that someone should choose to look for one.
Andy Tinkler @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
I'm very surprised that Gordon doesn't entrench in law `Gordon Brown will be Prime Minister of the UK, as long as he is alive'.

This is a very dangerous anti democratic idea that would have people rioting in the streets.
Sue Kirby @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Anyone know what your values are other than to cling to power as long as you can and milk the system for everything until we boot you out?

chris jones @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Vitriol and poison? Yes, from the left.

Peter Jukes and Alex Gilmore are the only ones throwing around accusations, smears and slurs; in Peter's case to grandstand an enormous ego to his US friends he was hot-linking to here; I wonder if Alex knew that?

Xenophobic?.. keep it up. You've lost the argument as soon as the smears start.
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Ha ha, nice try. Impossible and pointless. Not enough time to pull together such a legislative programme, some of the "achievements" do not have full support within the Labour Party, and the House of Lords would ditch it all anyway. That's before even considering that many policies are already subject to legislation (the Human Rights Act 1998 for example) so what is the point in legislating twice?

The logical extension of this argument is to use the Civil Contingencies Act to suspend the general election and to let Labour govern in perpetuity under the Dear Leader.....hmm, in that case, where are the barrels of gunpowder????
Jess The Dog @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
The three post below all defeat Alex's comment. Are you resident in a parallel universe or something?

There is absolutely no logic to Alex's argument, and plenty of logic in the three responses below. Please feel free to point out where any of those three posts are wrong.
Mike C @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Entrenching Labour policy in law is the equivalent of repainting your whole house in shocking pink the day before you sell your house. It's democratic vandalism.

For: "...we must also focus on how we secure and entrench the gains made so far, to ensure the Tories can’t undo these without a fight."

Read: "we must make it as much of a pain as possible for a future democratically elected Government to carry out the manifesto upon which it is elected by the people".

It's desperate and it's arrogant.
james thompson @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
You're dead right Alex about the Tory trolls on here

Just reading their rubbish on here makes me physically sick

You can tell they belong with tweedle dum & tweedle dee(Arrogant Cameron & Osborne)the same nonsensical TWADDLE is spouted.
However it does let us know how their minds work!
Madhatter's tea party comes to mind
Definitely not a serious political party.

WE WILL MAKE SURE THEY'RE NEVER GET ELECTED
elizabeth curtis @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Midway through marking and delighted to find you still here I can make a fool of again. Type your false name in google and the first thing that comes up is this

http://www.labourlist.org/do_we_really_need_another_anti-eu_party

"Do we really need another anti-EU party? | LabourList.org
Julian, re your call "Who is Celia Stobart", I am using a slight pseudonym as "Stobart" is my maiden name. Hubby wants to keep his family name as untainted ..."

Simple really.

So you really were lying right from the get go when you talked about pseudonyms?

Pretty funny stuff Hattie.

Youre making making a right of the fool of yourself!

The only shame is that noone else is paying attention by now. Shame

Don't worry I'll humiliate you at the top of another "thread"

Where is Peter Jukes by the way? When he gets here this is going to be pretty funny. I hope he's not a lawyer though because Labour List could be up $h*t creek.



Busy the rest of tonight
anti tory troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
That maybe the way it was... but... in this digital age of blogs where comments persist so they can't be shouted down (the traditional method of ignoring the truth), how long can a rational mind resists the truth of the written record laid out before them?

The relative lack of genuine trolls here means there are not anarchic spats, but lines of reasoned (and less reasoned) argument - how long can someone who can be bothered to read and participate resist the truth when it is so clearly spelt out...

(Having been doing this stuff since pre-internet dial up bulletin boards, IME the truth usually wins...)
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
I think it was Blair who said "We consider New Labour to be nothing less than the political arm of the British people as a whole". The USSR in the 1920s - 1940s shows us that a "dictatorship of the people" really just gives absolute power to whoever claims to be acting as their voice.
James Watson @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Give it a rest Tigger, if that's the best you can do - wow... I am overwhelmed. I'm banged to rights.

If decent, hard working people regardless of where they come from and where they live were aware that this government was so incompetent that it releases murderers, rapist and paedophiles in to their community; I think they would be very concerned.

As for second and third generation migrants - I think they are also very concerned at the shambolic excuse for this government; seeing as many Asian and Sikh councillors have defected to the Tories over recent years.

Vitriol and poison? No, if you don't like the facts of real-politik take up flower-arranging. Vitriol and poison that comes from the likes of Peter Jukes and grandstanding his massive ego here for his US friends and then getting royally up-ended on his own argument. I wonder if Alex knew that Peter was using LabourList to big himself up on another blog?

I see Alex Gilmore (incidentally is that his real name or an alias for Paul Wragg?) has seen sense after doing his homework.

Perhaps then when a counter argument comes over; people on the left might not resort of disgusting smears.

Get the message; you have lost the argument.
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
"Public opinion would crucify you"

A tad too similar to Harman's "court of public opinion" for my liking.
James Watson @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Peoples ignorance of the actual laws of this land stuns me. Parliament is not sovereign in england. The people are, read the bill of rights and the magna carta.
Parliament only has the power to govern us and is given that power by us.
All and any "laws" passed by labour over the last decade are not "laws".
They are statutes. A statute is only enforceable if given the consent of the people, therefore none of labours "laws, or values" can actually be made law, they can only be statutes. And tell me why labour signed us up to the human rights act when this country has a bill of rights?
righteous-rage ? @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
The meaning of the statement is clear when taken in context. You are either on maximum white-guilt mode, seeing racism and xenophobia where it doesn't exist, or you are deliberately making baseless accusations of racism in order to discredit Mike's views. I'd like to think that it was the former.

Furthermore, on the issue of those who are deported suffering torture or death in their own country, that's really their problem. Let me make it clear, I don't support the judicial use of torture, especially - as in most places where it occurs- it is not subject to proper judicial oversight. However, if someone is granted the right to stay in Britain, this right is conditional on them obeying the law. If they choose to abuse the privilege - and it is such, for there are billions who have to live under systems far less liberal than our own - of being granted the right to live here by committing a serious breach of the law, then they can leave, and make way for a more deserving person.
James Watson @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
It is a fundamental part of the make up of a lefty to accuse you of something that isn't true. At no point did mike say or insinuate: "It is filthy to insinuate that all immigrants are rapists and murderers". Mike said that when they are criminals, there is sod all we can do about it. However that did not serve the lefties purpose in deriding those who he doesn't agree with. Pathetic really.
bbJ - Posting like Mr Kipling... exceedingly good stuff. @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
I've sympathy with those sneering since the author seems to want to entrench a particular government's policy rather than inalienable human rights. The logic of his argument is not that we need to entrench these rights to guard against the possibility of the abuse of power by a totalitarian, despotic regime, but rather because he fears (through no peculiar insight) that the opposition party does not share his priorities. Try to imagine how you would feel had previous Tory governments entrenched the higher rate taxation limit or had Thatcher written union busting legislation into the constitution.

If the benefits and effectiveness of NHS targets and Sure Start are really so unarguable one wonders why you need to entrench them.
Hugh Pettit @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago

Thats not really a reply to my point is it?



Crazy Carrot @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Shall we clarify the arguments for you?

* Labour was elected in 2005 with the lowest % share of the vote and lowest % share of those eligible to vote (only a little over 1 person in 5 voted Labour) in history.

* Labour opinion poll ratings and local/EU election results are appalling, some of the lowest ever for a sitting government.

* The next general election will most likely result in a massive Labour defeat.

* Lots of Labour supporters say the public don't really like he Tories yet. In which case they must sure as hell hate Labour and what it stands for.

* The majority of the public believe Gordon Brown is damaging Britian and a majority want as general election asap.

So given all these rather damning bits of public sentiment and statistics, thinking it will be ok to bind the next goverment into retaining policies that the previous hated government enacted is pretty immoral.

I have no worry that the Tory government will remove a vast amount of rubbish from the statute books, my amazement comes from that Labour supporters actually think this is the thing to do, that the public want it and that no one could stop it.

As for argument ATT, I don't see any of yours anywhere.

What I do see is some silly A level psychology teacher (I still doubt whether it is a science) trying to play mind games because he/she hasn't a hope of defending this appalling government.

Guy M @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Interesting Peter.

You claim to be new to LL yet you remember what I wrote months ago.

A Google search on (+"celia stobart" +husband) throws up nothing like you claim.

You are Peter Jukes.

Outed.
The Very Celia Stobart @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Alan, Shame On You!

You forgot "..the Court of Public Opinion.." in your list of accomplishments...
Dom Brady @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
"With the confusion and infighting at the top of the Labour party, there is now the possibility that Labour could lose the next general election..." More like a racing certainty, if you ask me (or more democratically, the 40-50% of the total electorate who will collectively boot you lot out at the next election. And if ideas like those in the article are in your manifesto, add another 10% to the Tory vote).

I read through the comments, overwhelmingly against the idea in the article. I agree strongly with most. The idea of enshrining Labour values in some form of legal framework completely goes against the democratic principles our country stands on. Ditto any of that Euro nonsense. The idea that any of the current New Labour national
socialist "values" should be legally dignified is beyond a joke.
Jaime T @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Does anyone know what Labour's achievemnets actually are? Its like the world's most closely guarded secret, even at LL.


Extra points if anyone knows any policies they have for the future!
Charlie Farley @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
ATT - stop for a second and think through what you are doing.

You are making claims about peoples attitudes to race that you know are not true (at least are not evidenced in their postings here) and making wild attacks vis. 'vitriolic' 'poisonous', 'hate'.

I suspect you really are just a troll, so logic is of no relevance to you, however if there is a brain in there somewhere - consider why you need to make things up to support your position/party.

Think about it - if you are so absolutely right why can't you make a rational case?

Just for a second let yourself consider that you have no rational argument because your premise is wrong.

What are you first and foremost - rational or labour?

Me - I'm rational first which is why I mostly support the tories - except where they are wrong, and those areas are where they most agree with labour.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Just done that control F thing you suggested but god it was tedious. Found upthread and downthread used by plenty of other peeps. But what google did show is that Celia Stobart is not your real name because your husband didnt approve of your rantings.

So the question must rebound on you

"Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym? What are you so ashamed of?"

Not sure if any of this is true and remain convinced that the drag reference was there because of youre a bloke. But funny isnt it hypocrisy? Often the people that cry it are the ones to deny it.

Off to do some marking. Back to play later keep up the good work
anti tory troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Alex, its a shame that Gordon's biggest blow to the low paid - his sickening and smirking abolition of the 10p tax-band - wasn't enshrined in law. Labour are The Nasty Party now.
Charlie Farley @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
I have no idea what a troll is Alex - I am just an ordinary bloke who speaks as he sees things. I have, in the past, voted for all 3 main parties - but will not vote Labour again unless there is a huge shift from where they are now. Tony Blair and Co. have destroyed any belief I had in the integrity of our political system and politicians. Brown and Mandelson continue where he left off. And I despair when I read such rubbish as the above article - it is clear that Mike recognises that Labour will be out of power for many years and this idea is a last resort to try and stop the mending of the country again by somemone else. My only problem is that I am not sure anyone else is going to!

George Woodhouse @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Crazy Carrot your arguments are astounding! The logic seems to go something like this



I'm right


I'm far right



big space

/end of argument
anti tory troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Now what would you be insinuating Alex?

Get a spine and say it rather than rely on the quintessential New Labour smears and slurs. Are you implying I am in some way connected to the BNP you shabby little excuse for sentient life?

I very strongly suggest that you go back some of my previous contributions here before you make that accusation.

Fact: 1,023 foreign criminals were released by this government.

Fact: Three murderers, nine rapists & five paedophiles were in the 1,023.

Fact: A majority of these criminals could not be deported due to specific legislation in the HRA.

They could have lived here, remained within the law and that would have been fine. They knew the terms and conditions of their visa, they knew if they broke the law; they would be going home to whatever it was they left from.

Now of you think that it's ok to let these people out after they have served their term, fine. My principles of protecting the innocent from the guilty are clearly more defined than yours.

Throwing accusation of sympathies for the BNP are stock in trade of some of the intellectually bereft and ideologically bankrupt left wing people that think we are remotely supportive of their divisive, venal, self-serving and self interested political beliefs.

So Alex, get of the pot and tell us what you really think?

Remember you better do your homework first.
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Alex. Big brownie points. You're knocking the trolls about and they don't like it. As you'll see, and as I've discovered, they get very disorientated by reasonable argument, and when baffled by logic try to bore you with pedantry, change to the subject or just chunter on about "you socialists"

Example of all three signs of defeat below

anti tory troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
You've tied yourself in a knot by trying to be clever with semantics, Alex.

Attributing quotes to people that they neither said or meant gets you nowhere.
The Very Celia Stobart @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Why is it that Labour supporters boldly assert things they have no knowledge of? How on Earth do you know that George Osborne would not increase the minimum wage? You think you know what the Tories are about and just assume they are vile, evil skinflints that show no concern for those on low incomes. I doubt the Tories will undermine the minimum wage - its a good policy.

I think it should also be understood that Gordon Brown has done a similar thing but with income tax and inheritance tax. Income tax brackets are not linked to inflation and have cost normal working people millions due to inflation as more and more people are now in higher tax brackets with no increase in living standards. Again it is true for inheritance tax, with house prices soaring this tax is no longer only paid by the very rich, you even have to pay the tax before receiving the inheritance meaning selling loved ones houses.

Before you spew bile about the Tories hurting the low paid you should look at own your door first. I haven't even mentioned the 10p tax debacle, a good idea but removed hurting millions of low paid people - including me - for nothing more than a cheap political stunt, a disgraceful act and one that has cost Labour my vote.
Thomas Snoxell @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
So you are suggesting that the safest way to uphold democracy is to remove it from the hands of the electorate?

We already have the Lisbon Treaty rammed through Parliament without the option of a vote, despite promising it in the Labour manifesto

Retain the power and you'll push it even further?

NuLiebour New danger!

The Labour Party has no mandate for parliamentary reform, but you are suggesting that this doesn't matter?
Stronghold Barricades @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Alex you are a breath of fresh air in this troll infested atmosphere. These guys just don't get it do they? Imagine if visitor or recent migrant to this country read these horrible xenophobic rants, let alone second or third generation immigrants. Vitriolic and poisonous stuff so thanks for showing that not all of us here subscribe to hate like this
anti tory troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Eh no,

It is filthy to insinuate that all immigrants are rapists and murderers

I quote ” Lest I remind you of the immigrant rapists and murders released back into the UK because their human rights would have been violated if sent back home.”

Maybe you phased it wrong, but you should have said something along the lines of “ let I remind you of THOSE immigrant………..”

Yes you will try and say I have read it wrong. But this is a tactic that the BNP use all the time. Sprout nonsense then claim it was “taken in the wrong context” or “read wrong”, when in truth they do it on purpose to put out their real meaning, hoping that some will not question what they say.

What you said was wrong, say that and fair enough you are a more than a petty person. Don’t and I think we all know what type of person you really are.

The point these people staying (in prison remember, not “just let out”) is to stop them suffering from likely torture or death in their home country. If this is what you are advocating, well I really do pitty you. I would also have to say I am sorry to live in the same country as someone such as yourself.

The point, as you clearly missed it, about civil liberties is that you complain on the one hand about the HRA, and then use it to try and beat the government with. Make your mind up as you cannot have it both ways. I am not going to get into a discussion about what we have or have not done as I actually don’t agree with quite a lot of it. You however need to get your argument straight.
Alex Gilmore @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Mike

Your arrogance is astounding.

The people want to see the undoing of Labour’s "achievements". What right do you have to make that difficult to do.






Crazy Carrot @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Alex,

So it's filthy to complain that non-UK resident that are released due to government cock up then go on to rape, murder and seriously assault is Ok? In your world and what a perverted evil little world Labour have created especially with apologists for rapists and murderers like you around.

These people had right to reside IF they do not break the law, that is part of the terms and conditions of a UK Visa. If they do break the law then they are deported.

In terms of Labour as guardian of civil liberties? 90 days? 42 days? ID Cards? ContactPoint? Monitoring E-mails and phone calls? Government lies on Rendition?

Pathetic.
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Gordon Brown is very clearly the very last person who should have any involvement whatsoever in any constitutional change in this country.

He doesn't have a constituional bone in his body.

Most of the ideas expressed on this site constantly confirm to me that there is absolutely no chance of a new constitution ever being agreed.

A written constitutional document is a flawed concept in itself, it is impossible to codify concepts with sufficient accuracy. On top of that the actually content that the lefties would want it to include would be too stupid for words.

As for making laws so they cannot be changed without debate and a vote - what about all the statutory instruments Labour have built into most of their other laws so ministers can change the laws however they like without reference back to parliament?
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
I have seen some pretty filthy comments on this article and some others over the last couple of days, but this really does go further than any I have seen.

In case you did not know, British people commit crimes as well, actually the vast majority of crimes. The vast majority if those that have moved here and commit crimes, get deported. Some don’t, I suppose you believe in torture and capital punishment, as this is why some are allowed to stay, but mostly stay in jail.

Maybe you believe in capital punishment, I certainly don’t. I also believe in the human rights act, the very thing no less that you refer to when you whine and moan that your civil liberties are being eroded by this government. Or is this why the tories want to repeal the HRA and replace it. Take basic human rights away from certain people and send them somewhere else to die. Cameron never did explain why he wanted to repeal it and change it.

You are a poor excuse for a person.
Alex Gilmore @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
You don't go onto centre-right websites because they would hand you back your 'intellectual' argument after they had torn it a new one and called it 'Mary'.

Labour is a busted flush, you might be a fan-boy with a poster of Gordon on your bedroom wall.

The rest of the country is utterly and completely livid with him and his useless government.

As for 'progressive politics', who said Labour had the monopoly on 'progressive politics'?
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
The article clearly states, "Of course, the Tories could always overturn these laws if in government."

He didn't read the article in the first place, Alex! but just let go with both barrels, firing blind, as usual.
Peter Barnard @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
are you really that silly, or do you have to work at it? take a second look and i think you will find you are talking nonsense.
Alex Gilmore @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
But Paul

You miss the beauty of it. Where the policy is popular and generally (not by the upper class ar$e hole$) though of as right, the opposition will not have the guts to repeal it.

For example, if the Minimum wage is linked to earnings, it would have to go up rather than the likely reality of an Osborne n11, where he leaves it static and in effect it dies on the vine. The tories would never repeal it, because they accept people like it, but they could easily undermine it. If you put this in law, they would need an act of parliament to hurt it and thus the certain media and public outcry (and please don’t anyone say, no-one would care if it was repealed)
Alex Gilmore @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
I sincerely hope 30.. that would mean the current crop of yoof will never see power.

Thank God.
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Brian,

Of course Brian, you are all in favour of entrenchment. You are all in favour of constitutions being foisted on people without them having a say first. My experience of those shouting 'Liar!' first are usually the very ones lying through their very teeth.

After all, you will not debate with anyone that can see through the tissue of deceits and lies you post on here.

As for HRA, well, I guess Labour would like criminals to exploit their rights at the expense of their victims. It's a disgusting piece of ill-conceived, badly considered legislation that has become the hallmark of this ridiculous, shabby and thoroughly incompetent government.

Lest I remind you of the immigrant rapists and murders released back into the UK because their human rights would have been violated if sent back home.

Perhaps you'd stand up in a room and tell the families and victims of the people they subsequently raped or murdered that entrenchment of HRA would be a good thing.

Get over yourself.
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
It's a pity that an interesting idea like this should be so contemptuously dismissed in so many unpleasant, discourteous and sometimes personally insulting comments. Presumably those writing dismissive comments know nothing about the constitutional concept of 'entrenchment'. They will need to do some homework on it if ever we get around to having a written constitution (i.e. a constitution contained in a single legal document), one of the items on the prime minister's check-list of constitutional changes to be debated. Really fundamental laws and principles are "entrenched" in a constitution by requiring a special procedure before they can be repealed or amended: this could be a two-thirds majority for the change in both houses of parliament, or a two-thirds majority at a joint sitting of both houses, or approval in a referendum following two-thirds majorities in both houses -- there are many possible variants. The constitution itself would of course have to be entrenched, and the constitution would have to be justiciable by the Supreme Court: i.e. parliament's 'sovereignty' would be limited, as it already is in many respects (e.g. by treaty commitments) and as it should be in any liberal democracy subject to the rule of law. If, as I hope, we ever complete the devolution process by establishing a parliament and government for England, making the present Westminster parliament and government the federal organs responsible mainly for foreign affairs and defence, with virtually everything else devolved to the four national parliaments and governments, a justiciable written constitution defining the powers of each level of the federation would be absolutely essential, as in any federation -- and we are already in a semi-federal system, whether intentionally or not.

The Human Rights Act would be a natural candidate for entrenchment; probably also the laws establishing our membership of the EU and the UN. I doubt though whether detailed and potentially party-politically controversial legislation could properly be entrenched, and trying to entrench laws governing how much future governments should be compelled to spend on which specified purposes would obviously give rise to difficulties, probably insuperable ones.

However before we can use the valuable tool of entrenchment, we must move to a written constitution enforceable in our (new) Supreme Court; and the danger of that is that we might find ourselves setting in concrete all the anomalies and injustices of our present constitutional arrangements before we have had a chance to repair them.

Anyway, there's nothing whatever to sneer at in Mike's thought-provoking post. It's the sneerers -- especially the anonymous ones -- who lay themselves open to ridicule. Tory papers please copy.

Brian
http://www.barder.com/ephems/
Brian Barder @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Celia.

Seeing as he isn't going to use his real name and anti tory troll isn't that creative.

I am going to call him Tigger. Wants to be endearing but is really irritating, bounces around a lot and achieves nothing.

Seems a perfect name for him.
Mike Thomas @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
No Alex. You are specifically saying that you would make YOUR views legally binding on the country. The article specifically states that. The article is, in essence, calling for a one-party state.

Is this what it has come to? Are you all so bereft of intellect that the best you can hope for is to attempt to use legalese to cement your failed government's failed policies in perpetuity? This is the same party that promised electoral reform in 1997 and then failed to deliver. This is the same party that promised to reform the House of Lords and stuffed it with appointed cronies.

The only claim Labour had when it came to power was a moral one, and twelve years of Labour has ended that. You have no moral compass left. All you can imagine now is clinging on to power. Oh, you claim it's about the country, but in reality - which Golden Brown can't even view with a telescope any more - it's about power.

The longer you hang on the more despised and reviled Labour will be and the longer it will take them to return from this. Remember what happened in 1979. There were eighteen years of Conservative rule after Labour's dismal failures. How long will the Conservatives be in power this time? 25 years?
Sodd Ball @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Celia

Sorry to say Irene Handel is the visual image I have in mind. I never for the life of me imagined that Celia Stobart was your real name. No offense. Sounded made up. But I think youll find there's a lot of pseudonyms round here so don't be too shocked/

I've been troll hunting for years on Conservative Home and GF but under a different name. Enjoy the suspense while it lasts

You said you were something to do with CA. Do you write for the press? If you do I should give you some stories. Got a locker full of them

Thanks by the way for putting me in your handle. I'm making lots of new friends here. Laurie Penny is in love with me. Someone called Alistair is intrigued. The only ones who don't like me are the self declared tory trolls

Now you see how these pseudonyms work eh?

Thanks for the bigging up and keep the awesome craziness going. I love this site now

anti tory troll @ 33 weeks and 6 days ago
Couldn't resist having a long rant about this idea, here. Feel free to have look.

It expresses the fervent hope that this is just the misguided idea of a confused individual, and not part of my Lord Mandelson's great Master Plan.
Constantly Furious @ 34 weeks ago
In order...

Irene isn't my Handel, as you can see. I use my name. Unlike you. Hypocrite.

I didn't say "only".

You may have been 'troll hunting' for years, but not as "anti tory troll".

Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym? What are you so ashamed of?

Dead wood press.
The Very Celia Stobart @ 34 weeks ago
Wow, I've seen some posts get shredded on here over the last few months, but I don't think there's a single supporting voice in the comments below. Is there some sort of competition running on who can post the most ridiculous article without getting called out on it being a joke? Because this must be fairly close to the tipping point!
Winston Smith @ 34 weeks ago
So, does that mean the Liar-bore Party under McRuin and Lord Meddlesome and others intend to make sure that any future Conservative Government will not be able to repeal any of the anti-civil liberties and abolish Parliament legislation such as the 'Civil Contigencies Bill' and the 'Yuming Rites Act'.

Well, thats rich coming from this Monty-Pythonesque and Stalinated Labour Party who shoe-horned all the above anti-terrorism legislation and RIPA through parliament on the 'QT' in the hope that nobody would notice.

The only way that Lord Meddlsome as the 'Secret & True Dear Leader' would be to try and sieze control in a coup, and abolish Parliament, Civil Liberties, the Rule of Law and announce himself as the 'True King of Scotland, England Ireland, France, Wales and the World. (Of course McRuin would have to held in the Tower of London).

Of course McRuin and Pals aren't that stupid.... or are they?? (all alleged of course)
TumbleWeedNumpty !! @ 34 weeks ago
Irene. Jukes is the only one to use the term troll hunter? Where do live? In Jukesland? You read the Jukestimes?

I've been troll hunting for years so Jukes didn't start it.

What's televisual?
anti tory troll @ 34 weeks ago
"Troll hunting" is a Jukes term!

"By their words shall we know them", as you are so fond of saying. How deliciously ironic!

So are you an anti-tory_troll, or an anti_tory-troll, or just a troll?

(Do you take Televisual? Check out June 2008!)
The Very Celia Stobart @ 34 weeks ago
A freudian slip... lol
Alan M @ 34 weeks ago
Great another troll hunter here. Good stuff Alex. Plenty of trolls to go around. You bag a few. I'll back a few. Catch you later. We'll have this place disinfested in no time!
anti tory troll @ 34 weeks ago
This is twaddle.

If a government dislikes a law, they will simply repeal it. Enacting your values into statute as a means of entrenching them is therefore pointless.

Take for instance the fox hunting ban. I personally thought the idea of the law was sound. However, it was so poorly drafted as to fail in it's central purpose. The Tories will use this as a fig leaf to repeal the act in order to curry favour with their natural constituency. Simple.
Paul 'hit or miss as to whether my comments will make it through' Pinfield @ 34 weeks ago
I can see why Labour would want to enshrine their legislation into law even though it wont stop the Tories repealing it as all Parliaments are sovereign, but what is this legislation of which you speak? Honestly I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. What are NuLabour values? What is being proposed?

Ed Balls talks about letting the Tories off the hook by fighting in the party but to my mind its Labour that are being let off the hook as well, what is Labour policy? The Tories outline a fairly simple policy of ringfencing NHS and ID spending and Labour jump down their throats, Labour are in Government and when they're asked how they would deal with the mountain of debt they got us into it is them who are silent. All we get is pathetic "Mr 10%" jibes designed to con the electorate.
Thomas Snoxell @ 34 weeks ago
You absolute hypocrite - "Policies this government was elected on"

What like a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (or its latest manifestation)
like top up fees for further education
Like the sell off of school playing fields
Like more officers on the beat
Like mixed sex wards in hospitals
Like narrowing the gap between rich and poor
Like british jobs for british workers
Like the deprting of foriegn criminals

Broken promises and damned damned lies....

So you cant deliver on the policies - with more legisaltion enacted in the last 12 years than in the previous 300

With anti-terrorost legisaltion used to snoop in my bin, this is the britain that you wanted.

This labour government is the most morally corrupt and malign government this country has ever known.
And you sneer at those who dont believe that the left has the solution.

Alan M @ 34 weeks ago
"The point was to put into law the policies we want to see happen and to help prevent future governments destroying them."

But what if a future government is elected with specific mention in their manifesto of repealing ill thought out Labour policy? Wouldn't their election be seen as a mandate from the electorate to do exactly that?
Mike C @ 34 weeks ago
Criticising Gordon Brown or the PLP isn't the same as criticising the basis of leftist thinking, which is where some of your "troll" contributors are coming from. For example, I suspect we see Brown's failure in completely different ways. I say he is rubbish because he has been *too much* of a socialist, sticking too closely to Labour principles. But I suspect you think he is rubbish because he hasn't been *enough* of a socialist. He's wandered too far from Labour principles; this is why Labour voters have deserted him.

This is the trouble. You say "these things are actually right and popular..", and I disagree that they are right! It is an ideological matter. But you should not debate progressive politics without being willing to challenge the whole basis of those politics, to think outside the box as it were. Dissenting voices are extremely valuable in this regard.
Blue Labour @ 34 weeks ago
I find it slightly amusing that half the ideas you want to entrench - because, presumably, they are so undeniably correct that all right thinking people must agree with them - aren't even supported by Labour: restoring the link to earnings, abolishing ID cards, halting privatisation of the post office. We must also, we're told, entrench the dumping of welfare reform and city acadamies, policies currently supported by both major parties in our democracy.

Moreover, are Sure Start and, particularly, the Child Tax credit really so undeniably brilliant and effective policies that they should have near constitutional protection? There's been various independent analysis of both to suggest that the money could be better directed.

If you are going to consider tieing the hands of successive governments - which I'm not particularly keen on anyway - it should at least only be done on the basis of broad principles around which there is a consensus, certainly not to particular policies that you may happen to support but remain controversial even in your own party.
Hugh Pettit @ 34 weeks ago
This is semantics - the point of this article was to endorse the binding of future parliaments by
cynically enacting laws which would hinder that parliamnet in its duties.

Lets face fact - the gap between rich and poor has widened in 12 years not narrowed,
society is less mobile not more - the law proposed by Frau Cooper achieves nothing.
It is not legisaltion which will help people out of poverty, but positive action. However the whole problem will goa away soon, because if the country gets any more into debt we'll all be in poverty - and with the goal to make everybody equal. The government will have achieved its ambition.
Alan M @ 34 weeks ago
Oh, we are dishing out what you dished out to the Tories around 1995-1997.

If you don't like - well, you should have been just a little more than incompetent in government, we would have been happy with mediocre compared to the utter disaster this government have visited upon us.
Mike Thomas @ 34 weeks ago
"We are putting into law, the policies that this government were elected on"

Oh give over, Labour are desperate to avoid an election at any cost.
James - Man of the Right @ 34 weeks ago
Did you really mean 'spinless' ?? Great typo!
David Honour @ 34 weeks ago
I think were you and other lefties lose grasp of reality Alex is that there is a sizeable part of the country who do not support Labour or socialism, never have supported it and never will support it.

I truly believe you can't get your head around the fact that anyone in their right mind might find socialism repugnant?

That sizeable grouping who vote Tory are not going to bothered in the slightest about removinh some of your socialist poison from the statute books.

What I do find hilarious though is after 12 years in power only now in the last few days of NuLabour's Third Reich do you send instructions from the bunker for a scorched earth policy.

Actaully the Third Reich comparison is extremely unfair, evil as the Nazi's were they at least were efficient. I think the better comparison is to the Germans in Allo Allo. Ed Balls is clearly Herr Flick and Harman does remind me of Helga. What chance that Jackboot Jacqui's husband was watching a porn film entitled "The Fallen Madonna with Zee Big boobies"?

Of course Allo Allo was a comic farce and this Labour government is ........ nope can't think of a way of ending that sentence.
Guy M @ 34 weeks ago
are you having a laugh?

Have you not seen the various articles about GB for example, or asking what is the labour party for?

We are putting into law, the policies that this government were elected on. If you don’t like it, tough. As I have said, if a tory government don’t like it, they can change the law with a parliamentary vote, but I imagine they will not as these things are actually right and popular..
Alex Gilmore @ 34 weeks ago
I think that you are deluded, and don't fully understand the Law, and the way that it is administered within this country under the current legislature

Yvette's pronouncements are fairyland spin and nothing more

You can pass all these articles into law, but you can not force the government of any colour to conform to these rules because the government is sovereign, and because of this it would simply have to prove in a Court of Law that it has spent all the money available to it.

To suggest otherwise would actually mean that you see no benefit in the law system of this country...and thus why would you pass these articles into Law?

On top of this you are suggesting that Parliament is no longer Sovereign, and effectively you are withdrawing it's democratic mandate to effect change

What do you see replacing it?

Moral values do not legislating for, but those who transgress should be available for prosecution...even if they are members of Parliament or the Lords

Maybe we should have a demonstration on the standards set by Tehran, and then maybe this delinquent parliament will be dissolved

We may no longer think that heads on poles are what we do, but this government and parliament must be held to account for what they have done, and that must be done at the ballot box.
Stronghold Barricades @ 34 weeks ago
This takes the biscuit.

“but posting in favour of criminalising the opposition is an so called democracy is an intelligent option?”

Please direct me to the point where I or the author have said this. I think you are pulling quotes out of mid-air. (note I said myself or the author – if there is a post below, I am not responsible for this person and as with all sides there are extreme elements)

In case you missed it. The point was to put into law the policies we want to see happen and to help prevent future governments destroying them. They can of course overturn these policies with a parliamentary majority, but of course, you (and the others) know that these things are popular with most people and I would say the right thing to do (but you will start, to borrow a phrase from above, frothing at the mouth again). You cannot overturn them because the public opinion would crucify you. This is what we believe in, we are the elected government and frankly we do not care what you think.
Alex Gilmore @ 34 weeks ago
So you dont believe in democracy then? The new crowd that get voted in cant change what the previous lot got voted out for.

Alex, will you stop publishing emotive crap and some decent copy?
bbJ - Posting like Mr Kipling... exceedingly good stuff. @ 34 weeks ago
You've had 12 years to enact your "progressive politics" and look where it has left us

A state sector in some areas of the UK bigger than the old Soviet Union had

The UK's finances wrecked and massive debt waiting for us all.

The current government and PM the most reviled in living memory and only scoring 15% in a national election.

The reason Alex that right wingers appear on these sites is the absolute revulsion so many people hold you, your party and your leader in at the moment.
Guy M @ 34 weeks ago
It's because your articles never criticise "progressive politics". "Labour minded thinking" is automatically good; anything "left" or "progressive" is the right way. This article is an example: "New Labour values" are so good that they must be entrenched in law to protect us from the evil Tories! And this from a writer of a "British constitution".

Your responses to OH are also an example, because your idea of a "debate on progressive politics" is *within* the framework of those politics. It does not seem to occur to you that other approaches might be valid. So it is easy to "troll" you, simply by disagreeing. Hence, you attract "trolls".

But not all "trolls" are simply here to wind you up. For instance, I would say that the "British Constitution" should not enshrine "Labour values" at all. Instead, it should be a long list of things that any British Government is not permitted to do, similar to the US Constitution or Magna Carta. Somehow, I doubt this will occur, since the document is being written by a "Labour minded person" and Labour has never been interested in limiting the powers of Government. I think this is an entirely valid point to make on the subject of this article and its author, but since it is outside the framework of leftist politics, it is no doubt a "troll".
Blue Labour @ 34 weeks ago
We are not proposing binding anything. Any law can be changed with a parliamentary majority. What we will do, is make sure that if you try when in power, it is very very un-popular. Cameron knows he has to accept the minimum wage now, we need to make sure you don’t let it die as things get better again.

We are not taking away you liberty, we are putting into law the policies we were elected to do. If you don’t like it, help someone else win an election and over-turn them. But a word of warning, as with the 10% education cuts in the 1990’s, people don’t like it.

Because we care, we will make it as hard for you as possible to go back on a lot of the good work we have done. As Cameron is a spinless, PR driven creep, he will not do it.
Alex Gilmore @ 34 weeks ago
Excuse me! but posting in favour of criminalising the opposition is an so called democracy is an intelligent option?

One that demands consideration and a conjugating of the facts which support the point-
or indeed is this a rabid, barking attempt to stifle debate and impose on the sheeple a totalitarian state
for the benefit of you only. (hoping for a minor role in the state apparatchik?

Opposing tyranny is not idiotic - trying to import it via stealth is -
Alan M @ 34 weeks ago
But you (and your “friends”) are always the ones frothing at the mouth at the articles.

You see New labour conspiracy this and new labour conspiracy that. We come here to debate progressive politics and you come here to do nothing but complain and get very agitated. I don’t go onto right of centre head bashing websites and complain at the posts and articles because I would not enjoy it. Why do you?
Alex Gilmore @ 34 weeks ago
No, I had just not updated my profile. Not everything is a “leftist” conspiracy you muppet.

We treat you like idiots because you act like idiots. This is a place for reasoned debate, but we can’t have reasoned debate with people who have no reason to your “arguments”. Act like civilised people, and maybe we will not treat you like idiots. Act like an idiot and don’t complain when you get treated as such.
Alex Gilmore @ 34 weeks ago
Sheesh... get a life.

Fact: - The bankers operated within the framework that was provided for them --- by who? I hear you ask. By Mr. Gordon Brown
Fact: - The treasury reaped billions in taxes from the city money machine. Why were they producing so much? I hear you ask. Becasue they were provided a framework and they worked within it.

If you overextended yourself on credit, or bought a house that was just a little too expensive. Wnated that plasma tv? or that new three piece suite.

Well - you helped fuel the credit crisis. as recession started to bite and the jobs get fewer,
the ability to repay that credit gets puts under pressure.

These were the policies of a Labour government - massive expansion of the economy based on increased availabilty of credit backed by an almost inexorable rise in house prices. All of this since 1997. Hold on who was in power since then... Oh yeah I remember...
Alan M @ 34 weeks ago
An anonymous post! What a surprise! It is IN favour of the debate. Come on Alex, if you are going to put dummy posts in, at least use a name, make one up if you have to but don't treat us as idiots.
Old Holborn @ 34 weeks ago
We love it here. In the same way that Victorians used to visit Bedlam for their own amusement, we come here to watch Socialists frothing at the mouth.
Old Holborn @ 34 weeks ago
I believe you are trying to shore up parry support rather than what is actually good for the country.
Win the debate through argument and sound policy - and dont just change the rules if you dont get the result you want.

If the labour party have a sound vision for the future that they can sell to the public without criminalising dissent
then they deserve to win the next election.

If they cannot it would be immoral and unethical to bind future parliaments and the population with an ideology that is
neither wanted nor works.

Why should you take away my rights of political freedom in a sad defence of your own failed dogma.

The left continually takes the extreme position, will you force the nation to arms in defence of its hard won freedoms?
Alan M @ 34 weeks ago
why oh why, do you tory trolls keep on coming back?

To name but a few

Mike Thomas???????
Martin Bourke??????????
tory troll????????????
Peter B???????
Old Holborn?????
George Woodhouse????????
Guy M??????????

You are never going to ready anything you like, what is the interest? Or are you so short of things to do (maybe you are the unemployed bankers who really F***** this country and now have nothing better to file your time with). Why waste your time spouting your nonsense here?
Alex Gilmore @ 34 weeks ago
Mike

This is a great idea and one that I have read on other progressive sites (compass to name but one).

Laws can always be changed, but what we can do it make it so high profile for the tories to change, they will not want to do it. Do the above and they would not have the guts to put the reverse through parliament, because the media and public would crucify them

I would add, ensure that the minimum wage, child tax credits, pensions (etc etc) are linked to earnings so Osborne cannot let these great policies “wither on the vine” (we know they are hostile to the minimum wage and will not update it each year as we do).

Fundamentally change the post office to turn it back into a true public service it should be. Yes the age of mail may be over, but we could do things like making it into a “peoples bank”, ensuring that pensions, and other benefits and tax credits, (for those, and there will always be those, who would rather go to the post office) are available from the post office. We must ensure that the tories are not able to privatise the post office (frankly we have given them every encouragement).

We must also cancel the welfare reform bill and make it difficult for the tories to dump millions on IB again. Reverse the policy on city academies and cancel ID cards (though this will not actually save that much as most of the money comes from people paying for them).

Simply, we must fight the next election as a Labour Government and in the run up ensure that the many good things we have done, cannot be easily destroyed by tory cuts and “efficiency savings”
Alex Gilmore @ 34 weeks ago
I dread to think what the UK will be like if this outrageous, authoritarian nonsense is ever enacted. What the UK needs is smaller government with lower taxes and a return to the prudence of a bygone era. The country has suffered the worst debt-fuelled binge in living memory yet these delude idiots continue to reel off idealogically flawed diatribes about enshrining bad policy into law. I think to have been re-elected so many times, the labour party relies on most of the electorate being a bit thick or deluded.
Martin Bourke @ 34 weeks ago
Mike Smith you are clearly a troll - no rational person could have seriously written what you have - I am surprised that Alex has published it.

I notice not a single comment of support for you article.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 34 weeks ago
Are you lot completely insane? Look at the state of the country? Labour has brought this country to its knees and now you want to entrench all those ridiculous policies into law. You´re as nuts as Brown is!

In case you didn´t realise it Mr Lefty Smith, WE DO STILL LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY even though Labour has done it´s utmost to kill most of our personal freedoms.

Brown has bankrupted us (yes he was in charge of the purse strings and banking policy), don´t pass the buck to America.

Smith has done more to turn the UK into her version of 1984 than Orwell even dared in his novel

Balls et al have completely knackered our education system. Your child poverty solutions have made things worse. The gap between the rich and poor has widened under this greedy government. The only people better off are the politicians and bankers.

Straw and his predecessors have managed to allow more criminals to escape going to prison than any other govt.

Your immigration policies have led to the downfall of essential services and a rise in employment and diseases.

I could go on, but I was in a good mood till I read this. Tell you what Mr Smith, go live in a left wing country and do your damage there. We British are not socialists at heart and you will find that the more inane and desperate your rhetoric becomes, the more you will lose votes...

I do not want your vision of the future and neither does any sane person that i know.

This lot are the worst government this country has ever had!
Suzanna wantsanelection @ 34 weeks ago
So here we have the vision from the profoundly undemocratic black heart of new labour. If you want to embed your "values" why not just do away with elections? Values change matey, to assume yours are somehow above this is arrogance in the extreme.

One of the essential tennets of our democracy is that no parliament can bind another. If you can't "get" that, then I want the likes of you NOWHERE NEAR a constitution.

Personally I hope for a bonfire of Labour's unecessary, excessive and poorly drafted legislation much of which is entirely alien to British values. Legislation so poor that anti-terrorist messures can be used for everything from freezing Icelandic bank accounts to snooping in someone's bin.

And you won't have any choice over spending as you've bankrupted us. If you carry on like now, it'll be the IMF and not parliament that decides on cuts.
Peter B @ 34 weeks ago
I wonder if Mike is writing freelance or does his employer know about this? If they do, I take it they condone the sentiment in this disgraceful article; think tanks need patronage after all.

Mike Thomas @ 34 weeks ago
Absolutely - its like saying Labour won the support of 36% of the vote at the last election - whereas they actually got 22%
George Woodhouse @ 34 weeks ago
I'd just like to add the Mike Smith, the author of the above post is currently being paid by the taxpayer to develop a new UK Constitution

No, REALLY. I'm not joking!
Old Holborn @ 34 weeks ago
Mike are you really from this planet? Even if your idea had an ounce of sense about it - laws can be changed - or are you really Robert Mugabe writing under a pseudonym? But you also miss the point that the easiest thing in the world is to indiscriminately spend other peoples' money - and Labour have demonstrated this for the past 12 years. What is most difficult is to make sure we get value for money by very careful management of resources - and this government have been a total disaster in this respect.
George Woodhouse @ 34 weeks ago
It's what Labour have been doing for 12 years anyway. Labour "values" are law, and I tell you, the country has never been a better place!

Don't worry, Mike Smith, the Tories are exactly the same as Labour. They're not going to undo any of your great work when you lose the next election.
Blue Labour @ 34 weeks ago
Indeed.

They have the stupidity to attack the right with plenty of invective and reactionary language.

This article is steeped in the language of despots and dictators.

What do you expect of a party with a leader who is scared of a popular mandate and reneges on promises of referenda?

Anti-democrats the lot of them.
Mike Thomas @ 34 weeks ago
OK now I'm convinced LL has 5th columnist Tory thread writers.

It's the only explanation for this stream of mad ideas that must have been written to ensure a Tory general election win.

"Parliamentary sovereignty means that the British people have no fundamental rights and there are no laws which parliament cannot change or abolish with a simple majority"

So that would cover all NuLabour's laws over the last parliament then? Elected with approximately 21% of the voter base yet with a "simple majority" Labour have screwed up the country.

Now you propose to use the "simple majority" to try to impose your will on the next democratically elected government for fear of them using a "simple majority" to govern with the same freedom Labour has abused for 12 years?

Do you wonder whether this sort of nonsense is why Labour support has collapsed?
Guy M @ 34 weeks ago
I only wish these people read the history of the 1920's and 1930's better. All these arguments have been made before. Indeed, this morning on radio 4 they where adoring a left wing professor talk about control of the state for the common good. It was actually chilling, its almost the exact language used by Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini.

Left wing thought repeats itself again, every time convinced it is doing the 'common good'. Ofc whats makes these people so dangerous is they they genuinely believe that their totalitarian measures are for the 'common good'.
James - Man of the Right @ 34 weeks ago
Hi Mike - I think what you fail to address is sustainability. Public sector investment cannot continue at the current high levels if it is going to be through continued borrowing. So investment will either require :
a) Cost savings
b) Profit making services being introduced
c) External funding, (for example through insurance or PFI).

So if your proposals are implemented you would also need to grasp the funding nettle. If you don't all that public sector managers will be forced to do is find the money for the leglislated areas by starving non-legislated areas. This would benefit no-one.
David Honour @ 34 weeks ago
Let me take a moment to fully understand your vision.

You want to effectively stop all debate and all alternative thinking to your own, by striking into law an ideology. The upshot of which would be to make illegal all other ideologies that differ from your own?

The imposition of thought crime and the criminalisation of opposition to an ideology.

You really frighten me!............
Alan M @ 34 weeks ago
I read a book about that called 1984.

But anyway, I have to ask Mike, does it not bother you in the slightest that your Government has no popular mandate, and that it can only do any of this by denying the electorate an election?

Does it not shame you that you cannot win the argument so you have to use the law to make people agree with you?
James - Man of the Right @ 34 weeks ago
This is either quite a clever parody, or the most stupid idea I've heard in a long, long time.

Which is it, Mike?

Do you seriously want opposing views to yours to made illegal, or are you just a naughty tease?
Constantly Furious @ 34 weeks ago
What Mike really means is that if you do not believe in Big Brother, he wants to make you a criminal.

Thought crime.

All socialists get around to it eventually
Old Holborn @ 34 weeks ago
Entrench your "values" into law?

That is either meaningless or totalitarian.

Fortunately, it is more the former than the latter.
Chris Chris @ 34 weeks ago
Old Holborn @ 34 weeks ago
"I don't think that this sort of scorched earth policy will go down at all well with the electorate."

Yes, I can imagine this lot ****ing in the filing cabinets on their way out.
Charlie Farley @ 34 weeks ago
These sort of statements make me feel very uncertain. My gut reaction is - "how very un-British, but very New Labour".

I don't think that this sort of scorched earth policy will go down at all well with the electorate.
Tom Sacold @ 34 weeks ago
I would feel a bit better about Yvette Cooper if she was not pushing James Purnell's punitive Welfare Reform bill through parliament.
Paul Halsall @ 34 weeks ago
"So let me get this right. 15% of the voters now vote for Labour (85% DON'T) and you want to make your policies the LAW of the land."

That's an outrageous use of statistics!!! After taking turnout into account Labour gained a whopping 5% of the vote in the recent elections.
Charlie Farley @ 34 weeks ago
Great, more bunker-speak.

One thing about your idea to entrench your policies into law?

Isn't that the actual point of government?

Here's something for you to chew over.

The British people decide who governs them, what policies they pursue and they seek a new mandate from government every 5 years on the performance of that political party

What you are suggesting is total contempt for the will of the people. The fact that child poverty is worsening under current Labour policy isn't that actually just to going to waste Parliamentary time and make things worse for the people you are trying to help.

Labour is a political party it is not a permanent government. Get over yourself. You are not wanted by the electorate and yet you cling to power for power's sake, self interest over national interest.
Mike Thomas @ 34 weeks ago
"entrench our values and policies in law"

If only there were something worthwhile for that to matter, after 12 long years Labour's 'legacy' will be permawar, a financial crisis (that started in Gordon's Brain) and Labour's proudest achievement; everything a future government could possibly need for a police state.

Oh yeah, 1999s minimum wage was a good idea.
Charlie Farley @ 34 weeks ago
So let me get this right. 15% of the voters now vote for Labour (85% DON'T) and you want to make your policies the LAW of the land.

That beats anything the BNP can come up with in the totalitarian stakes. I'm going to blog this and you won't like it.

Old Holborn @ 34 weeks ago