Ed Balls' GCSE Pop Quiz

Here s a couple of proposed exam questions.In the last tax year, how much did Mr Balls and Ms Cooper claim in expenses funded by the Taxpayer?
How do you feel about this?
Do you feel that Mr Balls has any right to act in an arrogant and superior manner with anyone. For an extra 5 marks, briefly describe what is meant by the term 'SATS debacle'.

Totally agree about the need to support those not academically inclined, or interested.

Apprenticeships only start after school. Vocational training after 16 misses the point.

Hi Labourlist

"there is a difference betwen knowladge and intellingence"

ricki

@ thomas

"For those of you discussing calculators and logs, I was at school at that point when some had calculators, and some of us (the calculator deprived?) had to make do with log/trig tables. Generally I found it was quicker using the log tables, but not the trig tables when compared to those archaic Commodore calculators. "

I am guessing you are older than me !! (I am 37) but times have moved on. I work in IT, I barely write any more, use a calulator for a lot (apart from subnets !!) and I have a very good responsible job for which my education was a waste of time in many ways.

too many people get hung up on results and exams, it is why I have opposed the main thrust of our secondary school policy, not junior I think we have that spot on.

quality of education can not be jusdged by mere results but what we are turning out, we are focussing far too much on university fodder instead of preparing people for work.

for me if a kid at 14 is showing no real aptitude for education but is a wizard on cars we should be providing mechanical training.

however if someone is very good at maths then obviously they should be encouraged.

Hi Labourlist

I didnt sit any exams , I find my life experince more benifical ( though the spelling doesnt get much better).

ricki

@Thomas,

A disturbing eye-opener.

Given the number of science/tech educated people on this forum, are we stunned that Ed thought these were difficult (probably not), or got it wrong, or that both front benches are passing judgement on science/tech related subjects, such as say running an advanced economy, or technology/science related issues, etc, when they clearly haven't got a clue.

The maths question was derisory. Is that really in the equivilent of an 'O' level exam? I hope Alistair Darling's maths is better than Ed Balls'.

For those of you discussing calculators and logs, I was at school at that point when some had calculators, and some of us (the calculator deprived?) had to make do with log/trig tables. Generally I found it was quicker using the log tables, but not the trig tables when compared to those archaic Commodore calculators.

What an extraordianary piece of gimmickry - tops anyhting yet. And this government are past masters at it! Balls is a total waste of space - and yet so arrogant.

Alex, You seem to have forgotten to include the entertaining video of Gove's riposte. (In which Gove said of the Queen's Speech that it was "...in every sense of the word pure Balls.").

I am a product of Labour's education system having started secondary school in 1997. In that time I can say for sure that exams have become easier. Grade inflation is real and it is not a slight on teachers or students.

When I was at school my teachers would say how relieved they were that subjects had fallen off the sylabus because they are "hard to teach". I saw courses getting easier and easier. My piers and I were encouraged to look over the material for each subject we wished to study at A-Level a year early (i.e. a year before taking GCSEs) and by the time we got round to starting those courses they were different, and always easier.

Not only that, I was also in the first year to do a two tier A-Level system (A2 and AS levels) and they were a joke. I've told this story before on this site but I think its illuminating. A-levels were so easy when you could retake modules that I only had to achieve a passing grade on my last exam in Maths and Physics to get an A grade. I didn't study the material AT ALL, I got 44% and 41% respectively and got As in both subjects. I have no idea how an A grade can be justified when there are such clear holes in your understanding.

Ed Balls is talking nonesense, grade inflation is real, subjects are easier now than they were even in 2000 as I have seen it happen. This speech is a sick joke, trying to play politics with childrens education, teaching them to a poorer standard to give the impression of improvement. And to top it all, shouting at the opposition for suggesting that fact.

Balls needs to wake up and realise he's not doing himself, the country or its children any favours by hiding the truth.

If as well as talking about teenagers you'd like to listen to them too, you might be interested in The Teens' Speech this Christmas Day:

www.theteensspeech.org.uk

The simple answer to this is to ask 2 questions:

1 Have pupils suddenly become amazingly more intelligent than 30 years ago or do you back the independent academic research showing grade inflation?

2 Do you believe a politician with a vested interest in having you believe in improvement or end user groups i.e. universities and employers with a vested interest in seeing real standards maintained and improved?

Or to put it another way, do you believe in NuLabour spin or the day to day reality faced by thousands of independent "end-users" of the "product" Balls is pushing?

"It appears that all that members of the house need as far as maths is concerned is simple arithmetic to add up their expenses.

I can't believe I said that ...."

Far from it, Peter, Hon Members have shown themselves to be prodigal in their ability to handle advanced mathematical concepts such as imaginary and irrational numbers. Even more remarkable is their practical demonstration of macroscopic quantum superposition, in which two or more homes can each simultaneously be "main" or "second", the actual state being dependent on the observer and only being decided when the experiment is brought to an end and the quantum function collapses.

Peter, my kids are teenagers, and they do get taught logarithms. However, they do not know what a "slide rule" is or what it was used for! I must have been in one of the last few school years to be taught how to use a slide rule, calculators were affordable. My dad, a scientist, had a Curta rotary calculator for years.

Peter, I agree, O-levels were awesome. They did prepare a student for A-level.

Seven figure logs....stuff of nighmares for someone like me.

I was rubbish when it came to GCSE. When I was in Primary/Junior school I was left alone to figure things out using my imagination as well as reason, it worked I was doing secondary school maths before my time. Then when I was heareded into a classroom as taught along with everyone else I lost interest almost immediatly.

People obviously learn in different ways, I am always better off on my own, I was reading law whilst working full-time in the armed forces and I loved the solitude, most of my assignments were 2:1 and I think only one was ever late due to a week long training exercise with no sleep included.

There it is. But for me there is too much political involvement and pressure in education which should not only encorage children to learn and pass the tests, but teach them to enjoy learning.

Balls was misquoting the question.

Balls was quoting the question from an exam paper, the question did not originate from him.

Presumably Dr Pike was giving the answer that the exam was looking for.

A Levels aren't easier?

Could you resit modules to your hearts content in the past until you got that elusive A grade?

Are today's children actually 200% more intelligent than the children of 30 years ago?

Oh come on. These were questions that would be in the course notes: learn the notes, pass the test. The maths question was easy.

But it was good theatre, and anything that wipes the smug smile off Gove's face is worth it. And the message that Balls gave at the end was the important thing: students do work hard and do deserve their exam grades, any politician that says their grades are only from "dumbing down" is out of touch with the situation and is being disrespectful to future voters.

Personally I would like to see some reform. It is clear that as standards improve (as they have) there will be bunching at the top end of grades. We now have A* grades but we really need more "headroom" than that, perhaps a GCSE+?

Hi Ralph,

My comment was aimed at the GCSE standard in maths and I did go on to say that the 'A' level maths paper that I saw was pretty rigorous. How the pupils kmake the transition from GCSE to 'A' level is a bit of a mystery to me, because the GCSE doesn't seem to prepare children as well the old 'O' levels did. I could be wrong.

As far as logarithms are concerned - yes, indeed, thanks for the scientific calculator. It was just that I did not seem to notice any questions where the log function would have been used.

Slightly off-topic, but I was working on one roads/bridges job years ago where the transition curves between the straight road and the eventual circular curve were clothoid curves, and we had to use seven-figure logs. Now, that is something of a 'war of attrition.'

Andy,

"I hope that the members of the house don't generally regard that question as difficult."

It appears that all that members of the house need as far as maths is concerned is simple arithmetic to add up their expenses.

I can't believe I said that ....

Yes, Peter. That type of calculation with fractions was covered in the first term of the first year at my school in 1971. I hope that the members of the house don't generally regard that question as difficult.

Peter,

Logs are done now using a scientific calculator as they are used as part of other formula though I believe they are explained. They wat in which maths is taught has certainly changed. There is not the same level of understanding as was done in your day as students (for better or worse0 utilize the technology to hand. I am unfamiliar as to the current state of play as even my information is dated.

The cation/anion question though was good.

A-Levels in science a xxxxing hard. I am a science grad and was unfortunate in being an A-Level student when John Major was in power as the books etc and facilities were absolutely crap compared with what students have today.

Science moves forward fast and I doubt many of the older critics had to study genetics, Quantum or Newtonian, or Analytical Chemistry to the level students do today.

This attack of dumbing down is made by those who are dumbed down and who want to cut costs in education to dumb down our population without any understanding or realisation that it was technology that placed this country on the map.

Now more than ever science is needed albeit with ethics too, but we need to push the boundaries and invest as never before.
We need these brilliant young people to save this country from those who have not only no understanding of science, but also no understanding of ethics too.

On this one I support Ed balls (horrible isn't it?) 100%

I cannot speak for the biology questions (I did not take 'O' level Biology), but I certainly can for the maths (3 3/4 minus 1 2/5). Did it in my head by converting to decimals.

I am sure that this was the level of maths that we learnt in the first or second year at Grammar school in the 1950s and if that is the level of question being asked of 16 year-olds in GCSE, I really don't know what to say. Does anyone do logarithms these days? If not, how do people work out answers to compound growth questions?

In addition, I did some invigilating last year for GCSE maths and was astounded at the difference between now and the 1950s (now is much easier).

However, my wife brought home an 'A' level maths paper for me to look at this year and I have to say that I would have struggled with it.

I suppose that must be why more and more universities are having to introduce their own entry tests...and why the 1st year at uni is basically spent teaching what students SHOULD have been taught at A-level...because of increasing educational standards of course.

1. What's a Fluoride atom? AFAIK there are Fluorine atoms, but there is no element call Fluoride.

2. Second answer is 2.35, and is *really really* simple.

Quite right, and a big well done to the Tories too since GSCE results have improved every year for the last 22 years, and A level results for the past 27. Hurrah!

I daren't talk to youngsters nowadays cos they're just too clever.

Meanwhile, the independent research on this issues seems, well, a bit more nuanced:

"The intellectual abilities of England's brightest teenagers have declined rapidly in three decades, according to a study which suggests schools are failing to stretch the brightest pupils in their drive to improve education for the majority of children. Overall, teenagers are performing better in tests but fewer get the very top marks, the researchers found...The King's College research, to be published in the British Journal of Educational Psychology, contradicts the year-on-year improvement in test results of 14-year-olds."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/oct/28/secondary-schools-education-teaching

"Durham University's Centre for Evaluation and Monitoring has been monitoring A-level standards since the 1980s as part of its ALIS (A-level information system). Since 1988, pupils participating in ALIS have taken a general test of ability at the start of their A-level studies. It tests, for example, students' general level of vocabulary, as those with a more advanced knowledge of words would be expected to do better in their exams. Students' results in the ability test can then be compared with their actual A-level performance, to provide a historical comparison. The graph on page 99 of this report shows the average A-level grade achieved by students with the same level of ability test score from 1988 to 2007. This shows an average increase of just over two grades - so a student who got a D in 1988 would now be expected to get a B grade. In maths, the increase is even more pronounced, at 3.5 grades, with a big increase in the late eighties and early nineties.

It's clear, from this, that candidates of the same ability are now being awarded higher grades."

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/factcheck+dumbeddown+alevels/3315892

A little spin going on here, Mr Balls made a schoolboy error when he put a question to Mr Gove, who quickly put Mr Balls in his place.

The problem with education is we teach to exam, we do not teach to allow free thinking, but prefer to parrot teach our kids. Our children are certainly working harder than past generations but the exams they leave school with are worthless. The exams have been watered down so more children can qualify for University even if they are not able to withstand the rigour of a Degree Course, which is why so many drop out heavily laden with debt. Those that get the Degree then find there are no Graduate jobs, but part time work at McDonalds is available!!

The fact that proves our Unis are now a joke, Gov't keeps insisting we need immigrants to do 1000s of jobs Brits are not qualified for, but in 12 years we still cannot produce students with Degrees that are actually needed to fill these vacancies. Instead we have worthless dumbed down Degree courses which produce no one to take on the Degree jobs available. More joined up Gov't, NOT!!


The Goverments Education Policy has proved to be rubbish like most of thier other Policies.

To be fair to Ed Balls, he does say in the video that he had no idea of the science!

after hubris comes nemesis

'Goading Tory education spokesman Michael Gove, he asked: 'Explain how a fluoride atom can change into a fluoride ion. You're well known as an erudite and intelligent man. What's the answer?'
But scientists said the formulation 'fluoride atom' was wrong, and the GCSE paper from which the question was drawn states 'fluorine atom'.

Dr Richard Pike, chief executive of the Royal Society of Chemistry, said there was 'no such thing' as fluoride on its own, explaining: 'There is hydrogen fluoride, for example, but you wouldn't say a fluoride atom.'

Hi alex

Sorry for being off topic but is there a post coming about the new president of europe?

Back on topic didnt Mr Balls have major problems with exams in the summer?

ricki

"Not because of dumbing down and exams getting easier."

I beg to differ, my wife works for one of the two main examination boards in the UK, exams are far easier and the bar has been lowered.

Independent academic research shows there has been grade inflation.

Universities are running remedial English and Maths classes for undergraduates

Employers groups complain over ever worsening standards in basic skills and English.

But the Emperor's clothes are clean and beautiful to look at...

Hi Labourlist

Didnt we need the torys to get through some education bill a few years ago ?

ricki