World leaders know how to maintain a poker face with journalists, but yesterday, when asked about the Conservative Party's choice of European allies, Nicolas Sarkozy's discomfort was still palpable. The French President didn't want to be drawn into the cut and thrust of the upcoming election, but the subtext of his response was clear: David Cameron's decision to quit the mainstream grouping of centre-right parties has damaged his influence with European leaders.
Of course the Tory spindoctors will make much of the fact that Sarkozy left the Downing Street press conference for a meeting with Cameron, but that's simply careful diplomacy by a foreign leader visiting so close to the election. The reality is that by leaving the European People's Party the Conservatives have become isolated from former allies, including the parties currently holding power in France and Germany.
That isolation is something we see week-in, week-out in the European Parliament, where the Conservatives' new group is unable to muster the support it needs to have any real influence over key decisions; a fact to which some of the more experienced Tories in Brussels will privately admit.
Instead, Cameron has joined with a rag-bag of partners who are so extreme they have driven their former leader in the European Parliament to join the Lib Dems.
Labour MEPs are part of the second largest group in the parliament, pulling together sister parties from across the EU. We aren't limited to making empty statements from the sidelines; we can influence the debate and have an impact on decisions. Whether it is taking charge of the global economy or tackling cross border crime, it is now more important than ever to find international solutions to the challenges we face.
So why has Cameron isolated himself in this way? The answer is straightforward: it's what the right-wing of his party wanted. If you ask voters to rank issues on the basis of what's important to them, Europe isn't high on the agenda. Run the same poll on Conservative Party candidates though, and you get a different story. To get the support he needed to win the 2005 leadership election Cameron had to promise that, when it comes to all things European, he would take his party into the political wilderness.
The decision to leave the EPP wasn't about how best to deliver on his party's objectives in Europe. It wasn't about winning British people a better deal from the EU. It was about winning the Tory leadership battle. When choosing what influence David Cameron wanted over European affairs, he decided that keeping the right of his party on board was what really mattered.
That's got to raise questions about his judgement because, if we want to make a difference on the international stage, strong bilateral ties with Belize won't be enough.
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I don't wish to discuss this further.
I think "Control" is indeed the operative word...
Regarding earlier comment (addressed to Tom incidentally); I haven't read it back; but my assumption is that not everyone in this country is a Eurosceptic/Europhobe. Not unreasonable?
I think people will vote for whichever party represents their own interests and values best; therefore as Labour has won the last 3 elections, and is in the main pro Europe; I'd assume the majority are in favour.
Thos who aren't, tend to join parties like UKIP- which is a minority/fringe party.
The fact that many Eurosceptics post on LL, as do many Tories, does not reflect the whole populus, as I'm sure you'd agree.
We'll just have to wait for the election outcome I guess, to get a clearer picture.
I did NOT paraphrase you, the above is the definition of paraphrasing. I quoted you word for word. If I am only quoting you word for word how can I be embellishing it with my own viewpoint, an arch raise of the eyebrow perhaps, a twinkle in the eye, an ironic tone of voice.
I normally put things into bold in order to highlight text that is not my own, I do not want to assert that these contributions are my own...
Your assertion would be correct, that not everyone in this country is a eurosceptic. However the proportion of one or the other is at hte core of this question. I am eurosceptic, and was a floating voter, does this make my viewpoint any less valid?
Just because one votes conservative, labour or monster raving looney, is not indicative of their euroscepticism or otherwise.
As I previously said. Have a referendum, and let that exercise in democracy, by the people, for the people, define, without contradiction, that overall populations general view of the european union and our soveriegn nation state's membership and all that, that entails....
Do you now purport not to be democratic? If the government has nothing to fear from the outcome of such a referendum, then let them hold one, I thought that the current administration would jump at the opportunity to finally lay this ghost to rest.
Oh yeah they had there chance and reneged on the manifesto promise as our Glorious Leader stole to Brussels in the dead of night to sign away our country...
Regarding the rest of youyr
PS please don't paraphrase me in bold lettering either.
I don't propose to know the mind of anyone in the country apart from my own, you with your comment obviously do. My suggestion is to test that assumption. Put the question to a referendum, and then find out exactly what the population believe. It would be a direct exercise in democracy. I wonder why this suggestion won't be taken up?????????
As to the UKIP keep carping about the EU vote, well on a 30% turnout and a single issue no wonder ....
who actually cares about the EU elections, irrelevance and that is part of the problem.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/14/tory-euro-attack-mcmillan-scott
by pandering to the UKIP faction amongst his own party he is getting around from the middle ground he needs. Whilst the middle might be mildly euroscpetic they also appreciate a decent debate and a Tory of 43 years standing has been forced out
They see UKIP a massive threat in the south nad you should not pander to extremists
1. Forming alliances with homophobes and neo-nazis just isn't right. No moral compass.
2. Alienating your natural allies, he should be able to form a united front with the centre left in France and Germany. Instead they come here heaping praise on his rivals and hardly hiding their disdain for him. I though Dave had worked in PR?
3. His isolation would be a nightmare if he ever won power. unable to influence the EU, unable to withdraw from the EU and having to stomach Lisbon. He would be faced with a series of debilitating battles with the heads of the EU countries. While the rabid Eurosceptics would awaken and tear the Tories apart as happened in the Major years.
Dave wake up! if people wanted an unrealistic European policy driven by dogma rather than British national interest, they would vote for that idiot Farrage! Perhaps you should ask your allies in the UUP how a seemingly fringe character - Ian Paisley, was able to outflank them and ultimately overtake them by sticking to fundamental ranting.
Mark wake up! They did! They beat your party into 3rd place!
And have a look at Gordon's allies in the E Parliament befor you start throwing stones- you don't seem to realise that Labour live in a glass house on this issue. Forming alliances with 9/11 conspiracy nutters, rabid anti-semites and ex-terrorists doesn't look too clever if you want to criticise other people for the company they keep. Kind of, you know, hypocritical.
Yes, poor Obama trying to "build bridges" with the ruthless Right Wingers in the US. Saying that though I do not think he has any choice over there as the Right in the US are a very dangerous lot.
Of course when we make too many concessions or where we compromise too far we lend argument to our opponents and eliminate our own position and look weak.
I guess on that score we have had in the Labour Party some sriously weak leadership for a very long time.
Compare that to last week when our Home Secretary Alan Johnson seemed to pre-judge an appeal hearing in May for Gary McKinnon, where he breezily said on Thursday GMcK would "have to face the music". A pity he didn't give the same bit of homespun advice for a few of his colleagues who were appearing in court the same day.
Dave wake up! if people wanted an unrealistic European policy driven by dogma rather than British national interest, they would vote for that idiot Farrage!"
Whatever your views on the EU are, Mark, at least you have to give Nigel Farrage the credit for actually standing up for what he believes in (he was a former Tory M.P), just as David Davis did over the governments increasingly authoritarian security policies. DD gave up a front bench job, knowing he'll probably never get it back. Being in UKIP (or the Greens for that matter) isn't an easy option or an easy choice to make. Small parties are never in a strong position, but just as NF could have sat tight in the Tory party, mumbling from the backbenches like Bill Cash etc he had the guts to do something about it. In the same way some of us who are on the Left and can no longer stomach "New Labour" and their alleged green policies (among other things) hhich are anything but "green" hae also made a stand.
You might think us misguided, even traitors, but at least give people the credit for believing in something - you get the feel DC has no real beliefs in anything - rather like some of the NL front bench. Power, thats all they believe in -m personal power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage
Not always the greatest guide, I admit he was "active in the Tory party from schooldays to 1992".
That said, he could probably have advanced in the Tory party easier than for one of the smaller parties but he stuck to his guns.
UKIP, like The Greens did well last year in the local elections, but by and large they ARE small parties. As Dougie Alexander put it so complacently after the LibDem conference today "Labour or Conservative will form the next government". Yes, he is right, sadly, but hopefully with small majorities whichever it is, so the LibDems can put a break on the big two's sillier ideas.
My wife and I intent to make full use of the £20,000 ISAs from April each year, then on retirement go somewhere warm and low tax and ensure we pay not a penny of death tax or IHT to any UK government.
Good luck to you with your idealism, just don't involve me, because that's the bit I truly hate about your damned party and it's ideas. You really think you should involve me in your idealistic crap whether I want to be involved or not.
Good luck, I obviously do not wish you or your wife ill health in your old age. However I expect as soon as you need even the simplest operation, or god forbid suffer from a debilitating illness such a dementia, we will be seeing you come straight back in to the UK to avail yourself of the Social healthcare and personal care facilities offered by this country.
Sterling under Brown has performed worse than under the Tories.
Is that really the case? perhaps you should look at the facts rather than Tory propaganda.
£/$ @ 1.4 - 1.7 - the post Banking Crisis figure is exactly the level the it traded at from 1993 -2004. When its rise to 2.10 was more to do with US treasury policy rather than anything fundamental with the British Economy. And many complained long and hard it was too high.
The drop Aug 2008 - March 2009 was in the same magnitude as when the UK 'left' the ERM in 2002. It started slightly higher but bottomed at about the same level just under 1.4.
From 1981 - 1985 the £ dropped from 2.4 to under 1.1 in a steady decline over that period. In your book that must have been a period of chronic economic mismanagement?
The fact is the UK devalues the £ to stimulate growth, and as with unemployment there is generally a lag of about a year before the effect kicks in.
Mervin King - you know the man Gideon wants to hand complete control of all financial regulation to - has deliberately engineered the devaluation in the £. UK interest rates are below the Euro zone and almost on Parr with the US, this isn't an accident it is deliberate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2010/03/sterling_panic_cage_fight_mark.html
MC, with all due respect, I don't think you come on this site to debate or even let us know what your political views are, but merely tob regale us each day with long boring tirades about your supposed wealth and position.
Is this vulgar, ostentatious parade of what you have materially supposed to make us jealous?. Or admire you?.
Well, speaking for myself, it does neither. You have mentioned your PHI your private education for your children, your money etc etc so often all it does for me is BORE me rigid.
Enough already!: Why not go off somewhere now, if this country is so unappealing to you?. If we are to believe all you say, you can well afford to.
I'm disgusted that the Cameron Machine has dragged us in to this kind of debate. At least with Thatcher, you knew she would argue for what she believed in (no matter how inhumane and despicable). Cameron on the other hand tries to portray himself as an everyman, when, as this debacle attests, he's at the behest of the deluded, archaic hardcore of his party. The result will be complete irrelevance on the world stage in the (unlikely) event of a Tory victory.
"Tory home is a crap debating platform and from what I have seen is merely a propoganda platform."
your right as a blog it is bloody hopeless on here we see the latest comments dead easy and little mess or fuss, on there it is crammed full of stuff and as you say no real debate to the quality you, Peter B, Chris C and the rest give us (apologies to everyone else I have not tagged !)
not surprised because of who runs it, it does not allow debate in Belize so why on a site he owns ??
I am not alas the talented and creative PJ.
;)
I have yet to learn what it is about Tory Home that makes it good. I like LL as I can edit my spelling mistakes after a rush entry, additionally it is simple to use and we do not all have our comments deleted when they critical and political.
No, you're just a real politician, beating the streets, getting votes, making a difference... and I'm a just a scribbler. Get over your modest self!
(I've also posted that Peter B inspired post on Daniel Hannan's site too.)
Con Home is pure astroturfing. They don't really want debate. GF likes vicious japes and smears. No wonder the Tories and Libertarians all come here.
Scribblers inspire the beaters on the streets, they also permit us to evaluate our own value systems and that of society itself.
Without art there is not introspection, without introspection there is no evolution.
And Labour needs to do a lot of both ;)
Keep scribbling please ;)
All power to your elbow (and phone calling and shoe leather): we solitary sad scribes do our bit to help.
Cheers
I think they will just delete it. Tory home is a crap debating platform and from what I have seen is merely a propoganda platform.
BTW how poor site design is that compared to LL, not from a party point of view (I do website stuff) but from information overload !!
and they have the backing of Ashcroft !!
then mentioning it on here ...
do we want tory trolls on here, some of the guys who post regularly are fine but encourage more ?
Well, there was endless cross referring and posting from GF in the old days. But I used my real name, and it's interesting to take debate to the Tories for once - after all, they're hardly shy about posting here.
As for encouraging more. Bring it on, bro.
LOL. Good point. Well made.
and the other at the moment I wish to keep quiet !!
Which forums?
Just posted this precis at Con Home. Wonder if it survives - it was a bit OT.
This Government should be abhorred.
It inherited an unemployment rate of 5.3 per cent and left office with an unemployment rate of 7.2 per cent.
It has presided over unemployment of over 10 per cent for 29 out of 216 months.
On exchange rates: it inherited a two dollar pound and left office with a a dollar 63c to the £. It inherited DM3.9 to the £ and left office with DM2.8 to the £.
On taxation: it inherited a burden of taxation of 33.1 per cent of GDP and left office with a burden of 34.0 per cent of GDP.
On manufacturing: it inherited a manufacturing output of 28 per cent of GDP and left office with a manufacturing output of 21 per cent of GDP?
This kind of government should be abhorred...
The last Tory Government.
I should have put copyright Peter B by all rights.
The comment looks good and the "facts are sacred."
10 out of 10!
Unless - as LL - the exact page is specified http://www. da-da-da, I don't think I'd be able to find the comment on CH.
Can you help, please - be interesting to see the responses?
Well, here's the link if it lasts that long.
Yes, I think we should all keep Peter B's inspiring response at hand in our clipboards, to post whenever the old canard's about New Labour's massive economic failures are wheeled out.
Which Tory forums do you blog on?
You are one hell of a moral booster ;)
Jo.
Thanks, but I have to say that I very much enjoy your comments as well!
"Here to serve."
Stellar stuff. You should be a speechwriter for the next Labour leader... or at least a 'fact provider'.
Stop it, guys - I'm starting to blush ....
Your "fact provider" reference reminds me - at the time of the 2005 General Election, Philip Stephens wrote a piece in the FT about the Conservative public spending plans. I had done an analysis and what it amounted to, was £25 billion off local government.
I sent it off to Mr Stephens, who was gracious in replying (FT commentators usually are), also telling me that "I would be an asset to the Labour Party."
If you recall, the Conservatives were running rings around Labour in the first week of the campaign and I wrote to Mr Blair to tell him (i) Alan Milburn was useless as a campaign manager and (ii) he should be sacked forthwith.
I did receive a reply, it wasn't wishy-washy bulls*it and I do recall that Mr Milburn was removed from his head honcho post.
Pure coincidence!
The entire world is corrupt, public or private sector. I pretty much detest humanity with a passion which is why I look after myself and my family and say to hell with the rest.
The difference between me and you is that I admit it whilst you and people like Ian assign some holier than thou nobility to the left and socialism when it's just as big, if not bigger, crock of sh*t as everything else.
@Ian
Yes I hate the idea of "SamCam" giving kitchen sink interviews but the Brown's started this crap and unfortunately the tabloid reading Hello magazine masses with little between the ears lap it up. I wouldn't enter politics because I couldn't face representing people who struggle to produce two brain cells to rub together.
All this personalisation and close up tears in interviews (whether Brown or Cameron) makes me want to vomit.
@Hazico
So what it was MacKenzie who said Brown was a compulsive liar? You seem to be shooting the messenger again. Does it matter if it was a low life from the Sun who says it if it is true? The audience applauded because they believe it not because they like Mackenzie.
The MP on the panel, Flint, said what she had to as an election is coming up and as was pointed out had a very different view when she had a hissy fit and resigned from the Cabinet a few months back. Yet more hypocrisy from an MP saying what was needed to keep her seat?
As for your comments about Cameron and Brown having experience, what experience do you have to judge? What experience does Brown have outside politics? A junior journalist and university rector versus Cameron’s Director role?
What political governmental experience did Brown have before becoming Chancellor? Nothing at all, yet all you Labour supporters said the charge of "no experience" was irrelevant in 1997. Or are we to assume a virtual Labour dictatorship for the next 50 years as no one else will have any "experience".
Labour has flooded the country with low skilled immigrants, massively increased the public sector and presided over the growth of the benefits culture. Now you can call on all those in your debt to vote for you. The rest of us can carry the bill of your mismanagement for the next few decades can't we?
Figures this week, everyone in the country paying £500 pa just to fund public sector pensions. Yep I just love paying through the nose to fund all those wealth eaters.
Another five years of Labour and this country will be totally out on it's feet. But never mind I suppose you have a nice public sector pension to fall back on? Pity the private sector who had their pension funds wrecked by Brown.
Time out from politics, race and ideology for a moment. A humanitarian response. You wrote:
The entire world is corrupt, public or private sector. I pretty much detest humanity with a passion which is why I look after myself and my family and say to hell with the rest.
I don't believe that for one moment, MC. Though you and I disagree on practically everything in terms of politics, you must have some residual faith in humanity, debate, co-operation, and the ability of us all to find common purpose through reason and passion, or you wouldn't bother posting on this site.
After all, a true misanthrope wouldn't need to tell the rest of the world he detests it.
The truth is: you sound to me like a disappointed romantic. Your cynicism is borne out of disappointment, but in your heart you're hoping for better from people: more probity, honesty and courageousness.
Jesus. Even your sig line, Eng Nationalist though it is, speaks about the equality of man and the rights of citizens.
You're an idealist underneath it all - just like the rest of us.
Sorry Peter but no I truly detest humanity destroying everything they touch, polluting everywhere they go.
Your average man on the street is ill educated and lives his life full of reality tv, soapoperas and tabloid crap like the Mail, Sun and Mirror.
He revels in his inabiltiy to do simple maths and believes that a white van is heaven on earth.
Sorry but my "idealism" is for a land that never really existed.
I'm in this life for me and my family, the rest can do what they want but with no help from me.
As I said I'd never enter politics or stand for any elected post as I couldn't live with representing the average member of the public.
I spend my time playing golf on my own as I wont group with anyone, working solo as I told my employer I didnt want staff or budget and I didnt want to go on a management/leadership course and playing online games solo.
All I want from politics is a government that lets me keep my money and leaves me alone.
Then the problem is that your kids won't stay forever in your family. They'll have to branch out, enter society, and meet others in order to be happy, pair up, reproduce. Their kids the same. And their kids after that...
How can you have children and hate humanity? You know they will rely on the comfort and kindness of strangers, from Good Samaritans, to their as yet unknown new loved ones.
No man is an island, MC. And it is for the sake of my children that I believe in making a better society. And since the time of Hobbes, most parties, right and left, understand that collective action on defence, law, infrastructure, health, education, and the economy is vital for a trusting and healthy society.
The alternative is a public squalor and private affluence: gated communities, served by private police, where the children of the rich go into the ghetto for fun, drugs and escapism, and more people go to college than prison. This is truly a Hobbesian world - and I've seen it; in the laissez faire inner cities of the US.
As Benjamin Franklin said: We'd all better hang together, because surely, we'll all hang separately.
As I said, the rest of the world can go hang as far as I'm concerned. I want a government to leave well alone, after that they can do as they wish.
My kids know when they hit university it's up to them, that's my lot. As I had to make my way, so can they.
I detest socialists but I don't have much time for Tory activists either.
I trust that no one in government of any sort knows better than I how to run my life and I wish no part of their great plans.
So therefore there is no ideological fundamentalism when I say Labour and Brown are incompetent, simple truth. I do not believe Cameron will be much better but he will meddle less and leave people alone more so he has my vote.
My wife and I intent to make full use of the £20,000 ISAs from April each year, then on retirement go somewhere warm and low tax and ensure we pay not a penny of death tax or IHT to any UK government.
Good luck to you with your idealism, just don't involve me, because that's the bit I truly hate about your damned party and it's ideas. You really think you should involve me in your idealistic crap whether I want to be involved or not.
That is why I could never and have never voted Labour.
This still doesn't make any sense:
Good luck to you with your idealism, just don't involve me, because that's the bit I truly hate about your damned party and it's ideas. You really think you should involve me in your idealistic crap whether I want to be involved or not.
I don't think I did involve you. I think you involve yourself, regularly and almost addictively, by coming here and telling us all how much you hate us. It's you who involves yourself.
Love and hate are passionate: if you didn't care you'd be indifferent.
"In each of his five budgets between 2003 and 2007, Mr Brown overspent on average by more than £30 billion, clocking up about £160 billion of debt.
What's more, the pledge he made to me in 1998 to lay "the foundations for long-term industrial and economic success" came to less than nothing.
Under Labour, Britain has shed manufacturing jobs at an alarming rate: about 1.7 million have disappeared since 1997. In that year, manufacturing accounted for 20.9 per cent of the United Kingdom's GDP. By the time of the last election, it was down to 13.6 per cent. Today, it is lower still.
Since my meeting with Mr Brown in 1998, other key indicators have moved in the opposite direction: unemployment is up, taxes are up, national insurance is up, total borrowings (state and personal) are up, as are pension pot deficits.
Even with sterling's 25 per cent devaluation (against a basket of global currencies) in the past three years, the UK's trade gap for January reached £8 billion. Whither Mr Brown's push for competitiveness?
Between 2000 and 2010, the Government's annual outlay nearly doubled to £700 billion. In order to put Britain's state finances on a path back to sanity, business lobby groups, the CBI and the Institute of Directors, as well as company leaders, such as Marks & Spencer's chairman Sir Stuart Rose, are demanding early action to reduce public spending.
Will we get it? Not if Labour wins a fourth term.
In this year's Gold Cup field there's a 20-1 shot called Tricky Trickster. Do you ever get the feeling that he's running the country? "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeffrandall/7422606/Gordon-Brown-has-terrible-form-when-it-comes-to-keeping-his-promises.html
Christ, did not the collapse of the whole western system of free market tell us that
We have to get that message across
Jo.
this is what Gideon said abotu a plan to get more jobs in the Wet Mids
"“A Conservative government will protect 4,500 tourism jobs by undoing the effects of Labour’s stealth tax raid on Furnished Holiday Lets. This will make life easier for thousands of tourism businesses in the West Midlands"
Holiday lets in Brum, come on !!!
total bunkum
So what are the Tories plan on high speed rail? The last I heard is that they want to start all over again so that they can try to avoid Tory constituencies.
Given the massive need we have for better transport AND more housing, I'm glad of your enlightened response, and it's a refreshing change from the nimbyism/Red Toryism of local planning that has brought us to this sorry pass.
In fact, one could directly connect the (brief and small) rise of the BNP with Shire Nimbyism. There wouldn't be this housing shortage without it.
I've spent very happy holidays on W.Midlands canals. Maybe you should get off your high horse and give the English regions a chance. Brown's tax rule change for established small holiday businesses is a disgrace.
I repeat, Brown has had his chance and has used it to trash the economy. Public borrowing INCREASED during the boom years- even as tax receipts soared. Where was the prudence? Where is our sovereign wealth fund? Given to the payroll vote, that's where. The man's a total liability: his "experience" is 13 wasted years for the UK.
Hope you have a good weekend,
Jo.
I'll try to say more when I'm able to return.
Jo.
Even if I had been a floating voter, I would have been persuaded to vote Labour; they clearly are acting in a more dignified fashion, and "sitting it out."
Sorry must go now- Jo.
It amazes me that he and others like him get paid to reel off publicly pure prejudice that is unfounded.
I agree his views on the Venables case is extremely unsavoury.
Sorry only have about 5 mins.
Jo.
What about proof of policy and substance- has that failed?!
Jo.
but remember after Brown's interview everyone was sneering at him and calling him all kind of names
Tories not saying that about Cameron who did not need a soft image makeover but real policies.
this week he will have done TWO soft interviews
hyprocrites
Even if I wasn't a Labour voter, I couldn't be convinced Cameron and Osborne have the experience or capability to run the next government or the economy. They just don't cut the mustard!
Jo.
This "experience" argument is worthless- do you recognise the right of the electorate to change governments or not? Brown has 13 years "experience", during which time he has made a royal mess of the economy. Unemployment, taxes- up. Currency, manufacturing- down. His "experience" counts against him. He has experience, what he lacks is competence or a shred of humility.
On unemployment : what would you say about a government that inherited an unemployment rate of 5.3 per cent and left office with an unemployment rate of 7.2 per cent? And, in the interim period, presided over unemployment of over 10 per cent for 29 out of 216 months? And, during the whole of its tenure, never attained the inherited unemployment rate?
On exchange rates : what would you say about a government that inherited a two dollar pound and left office with a a dollar 63c to the £? Or inherited DM3.9 to the £ and left office with DM2.8 to the £?
On taxation : what would you say about a government that inherited a burden of taxation of 33.1 per cent of GDP and left office with a burden of 34.0 per cent of GDP?
On manufacturing : what would you say about a government that inherited a manufacturing output of 28 per cent of GDP and left office with a manufacturing output of 21 per cent of GDP?
My comments seem to be disappearing. I'll try again
"On unemployment : what would you say about a government that inherited an unemployment rate of 5.3 per cent and left office with an unemployment rate of 7.2 per cent?"
I'd say that was better than the current 7.8%, and rising
"On exchange rates : what would you say about a government that inherited a two dollar pound and left office with a a dollar 63c to the £? Or inherited DM3.9 to the £ and left office with DM2.8 to the £?"
I'd say that Brown described "a weak currency is a sign of weak economy and a weak government"- and then presided over a 27% fall in Sterling vs Euro (or historical basket) ,33% against the Swiss franc and 35% against the Japanese yen
"On taxation : what would you say about a government that inherited a burden of taxation of 33.1 per cent of GDP and left office with a burden of 34.0 per cent of GDP?"
I'd say it's been higher every single year since then.
"On manufacturing : what would you say about a government that inherited a manufacturing output of 28 per cent of GDP and left office with a manufacturing output of 21 per cent of GDP?
I'd say that was a damned sight better than the current 13%.
What would you say?
I'd say that you need to stop blaming the Tories for the failings of your party.
On this particular point, I'm not blaming the Conservatives for anything.
Given the criteria that you cited - exch rate, unemployment, taxation and manufacturing, I was just asking what you would say about a government with the record that I gave to you?
I posted a long reply which I either deleted whilst editing or which vanished. Really can't be bothered to trawl through all the figures again, though I will if you insist.
I voted Labour in 1997, so you can take it that I was no admirer of the Tories' record on the economy. On each of those measures however- forex, unemployment, tax as %GDP, manufacturing % of GDP- New Labour has done worse still. What would you say about that?
On unemployment : I can’t see how you can say that Labour has done worse than the Conservatives – when the Conservatives had their recessions, unemployment peaked at 11.9 per cent and we are a long way from that.
It is also moot that the rate is still rising ; the seasonally-adjusted rate in November was the same as the rate in May (7.8 per cent) and lower than June, July, September (7.9 per cent). It appears to have stabilised, but I think we’ll see the December figures next week.
On Forex – personally, I don’t attach too much concern to Forex, much of which is trader-driven and detached from economic reality. If you recall, the USD almost reached parity with the pound at the beginning of 1985 and fifteen months later, it was a dollar 50. That’s not economic reality – it’s a financial phenomenon, compounded by “herd instinct.”
On manufacturing : yes, disappointing
On tax : some of us happen to believe that highish taxes are not necessarily a bad thing – eg Sweden, Denmark, France.
But, if you recall, you were criticising Labour on criteria that you introduced and I provided a précis of a government's performance using the same criteria, and asked what you would say about such a government?
I have to observe that you went into relative/comparative mode, and declined to provide an absolute answer.
Your enthusiasm for high taxes would perhaps be justifiable if the money were being spent as wisely as it is in the countries you mention. Do you believe that to be the case?
Gordon Brown regarded forex as a useful point-scoring weapon in opposition. Either he was wrong about its significance or he has been incompetent in its management.
Thank you for acknowledging that New Labour has indeed underperformed even the Tories on manufacturing.
Notwithstanding your problems with New Labour (some of which I might agree with) Peter B has comprehensively shown it hasn't done 'worst still.
BTW your reply to Peter appears twice on my browser.
Peter Barnard has done no such thing. Under the Tories manufacturing GDP share contracted by 25%. Under New Labour it has contracted by a further 38%.
Sterling under Brown has performed worse than under the Tories.
Tax burden is higher now than in 1997 and has been in every year since then.
Unemployment is higher now than in 1997.
Which of these statistics represents an improvement in your opinion?
The person who who said "compulsive liar" was Kelvin Mackenzie(?)-
ex editor of the Sun!!! He also expressed typical populist and right wing views, many of which were lambasted by the QT audience.
The MP on the panel who knows GB well said he could never be called a liar- and implied that was just smear tactics.
Most people around where we live are very supportive of GB and Labour - so please don't speak for all!
(Also- look at the polls closing in.)
There may be adverse reactions form the Sun and Daily Mail/Torygraph readers- but they are not the whole country.
Where do I use Mackenzie as an example?
I did use the reaction to what he said as an example but the point was not who said it but the reaction. You could have had almost anyone say "Brown is a compulsive liar" and the audience would have clapped.
To be expected though, you deal with the individual rather than the point.
Venables and Edwards did a disgusting unforgiveable thing to a young child, and in my personal opinion, letting them out after only 8 years was an insult to the toddlers memory and to his parents and family, but IF Venables has broken the law again, it is for the courts to punish him, not the prison mob that Mackenzie was smacking his lips over. He is a disgusting little man and often comes out with these public bar pronouncements.
BTW everyone laughed and bemoaned Brown doing the interview with Morgan
Will you do the same about him and his Mrs tomorrow ?
QT on Thursday should let you know how polarised things are getting when an audience from a Labour constituency loudly applauds the comment "Brown is a compulsive liar".
This EU issue is just more of the same, Labour weaselled their way out of the manifesto pledge and denied the UK electorate a say in what was a deeply undemocratic treaty that forces yet more unwanted change on the people they are notionally "serving".
After all of that you get endless MEPs on LL without a clue just how despised they are in the country.
Take care
Danny
"I'm still of the opinion that dissection of the Tories' policies is not hate - it is an integral part of politics. To me, that analysis does not represent 'hate' (although, actually, I have to confess that in my case I do dislike them as people too). "
And the difference with our policys ? Iraq Id cards bankers.
Danny
They are dissected here all the time, Danny. Nobody prevents any criticism from whatever quarter. It's often visceral and, without wishing to stereotype, I wonder why some of the gentler people persist here in the face of such antagonism, vitriol, and rancour.
Then report my comment , What happened to hope ot hate?
Danny
Actually, it is a public service :-)
I write technical articles for a living, everything I write is edited three times, a tech edit, then a copy edit (the client is American, so this is needed to make sure my stuff is not too British) and then an edit by the client. Every step of the way I have my work reviewed and altered and I have to re-work the article. It is part of the process.
The Tories should consider our review of their policies as part of the process too :-)
Is a extremist a 9/11 truther? that belives that the us goverment killed 3000 people ? well they are in our grouping , This is why politics is on the downward spirel and its summend by one word , hypocrsy .
Dany
Has ms willmot agreed to respond or is this from no 10 ? Is this site the 3rd that Will straw discrbed on the daily polictis? through a 3 rd media or something like that . This site is going back to the days of Mr Draper , what happened to hope to hate ? Where are our policys?
Danny
Too much conspiracy theory and a slur on Alex's integrity, I feel.
I think that Alexander and Miliband are working long days to compose the manifesto. For some, it is just a matter of waiting until 24 March. All will be revealed in good time.
Where there are defects in the Tory policy, they should be exposed. That's not negative campaigning, but detailed examination of policies. The biggest inconsistency is that the Tories promise symbolic cuts in 2010-11, but their commitments in tax concessions seem to contradict that idea and increase spending, some of which will only benefit the affluent. The major question is how they will fund such tax concessions.
If it's a question of reassuring the idiots in the financial services sector, then Lab has committed to £3bn reduction through wage restraint in the civil service and has negotiated lower redundancy compensation with four of the five civil service unions. We will have to wait for how much of the unused PSNB this year will be directed to pay off debt (perhaps £15bn?) or to maintain the stimulus if necessary, supplemented by the higher receipts from new taxation. So there is already plenty of Lab commitment to reassure the bond markets - not that any of our gilts mature for another dozen years.
The efforts towards 'industrial activism' should be collected in one place, since it is a considerable amount. The latest is £250m of loan guarantees to GM for Vauxhall UK. A year ago, it looked very likely that GM would have drastically reduced its capacity in the UK, although UK production is one of its most profitable units. I'm not a personal fan of Mandelson, but BIS has achieved a great deal over the last year in supporting existing industry and inducing new technological ventures here.
The City, unfortunately, does us no favours, now with its implication in the collapse of Lehman (Linklater, Ernst and Young). Geithner will no doubt complain again that the Brits 'grinfucked' the US over Lehman Bros.
You quote the french but did you do that over Iraq ? Bloody hypocrsy , Have the eus acounts been signed of yet? When will the leadership acount for the money ? , You relly dont get voters, voters are not stupid (in fact some i know think you all lie) , why not treat voters and parliment like adults!.
Danny
NATO brought peace with every major western country a member of a group that said an attack on one is an attack on all.
I don't think the soviets didn’t attack because France and Germany were trading coal. It was the US, UK and other NATO divisions in the way that stopped them along with our nuclear deterrent that Labour and CND wanted to give away.
Only 23% of UK voters want the current relationship with the EU to continue. The majority, according to a Global Vision Poll, want less meddling from Brussels and the relationship with the EU more as a free trade area.
I can not track any polls pro or agin EU for Labour members but I suggest it could well reflect the number of Labour voters in Scotland who would support Scottish Independence at around 40%.
Does not surprise me. The core principles of the EU are very good and I reckon many people would have no problem with them. Just all this weird stuff we see happening now which is neither desired or democratic.
But then in this country we have not really even touched on a real debate on the EU and it is surrounded by Myth and Arcane rumour. No wonder people are cautious, I would be too, as we have already discoved what occurs when politicians are "quiet" on things, we begin to discover what they are hiding.
I am pro-EU (not in it's current form but in principle) but am on the side of the people here and I trust their instincts. MP/MEP's have never really tried making a case for Europe so we should not be surprised when there is not one for the people to engage in.
I respectfully disagree.
When the EU formed it did so based upon some very potent and popular principles that were driven at the time by an overwhelming desire for peace.
The original economic ideas and Human Rights that resulted were all designed to prevent Governments of any member state treating it's incumbent population in a manner the Nazi's did during the holocaust.
There is still a very potent argument for a European Union.
However at the moment the EU is hurting itself. Whereever and whenever it exceeds itself or fails to stick to democratic principles it begins to sow it's eventual destruction. This is because the forces that oppose the EU in it's core principles can find platforms to attack it.
The EU organs have constantly tested themselves via the courts to examine the position of the EU as a power (Factortame was a classic case here in the UK) but has never realised the limitations of it's powers which have continued to increase.
Sadly had the principles been set out in Constitution that all EU citizens could have voted for the Lisbon Treaty or other Constitutional agreement might actually have been a wonderful platform for the people to define their futures. It was a great opportunity, not just for "yes" or "no" but for defining a shared but distant relationship with our distant kin and neighbours.
Once more we have been cheated by an overbearing group of people who lacked the vision and skill to truly make the EU a celebration of shared democracy and they have, consequently with their elitist blundering created a huge platform or argument for the far right or the far left to pounce on.
The EU has massive potential to bring us all together, the authors who originally designed the EU in it's form should be applauded for the longest period of peace Europe has known in a long time. But the inheritors who do not understand the basic principles of the EU whose interests are narrow and selfish risk destroying the very platform that keeps us all together.
You can never take any single item for granted in a democracy, and those who claim to be democratic and yet fail to respect the importance of democratic principles are as much a threat to us all as the ruthless partys who wait in the shadows to stamp the life out of it.
Glenis has been a part of that!
Sorry I can' stay much this W/E.
Jo.
I am interested in what that "good pragmatic policy" is. Please can you detail it for us top consider?
So far- little confidence inspired, and little experience to boot.
Labour was many things that it is no longer, for a start it is no longer a socialist party or even a social democratic party it is a shambles where the leadership will throw people it has no further use of to the plebs in the hope we are fooled that it demonstrates integrity, yet it hides behind NEC rules or 'parliamentary privilege' when it comes to the senior or cabinet MP's who are the real problem.
Labour is not alone in this, the Tories are no better this is the rot and stench of generations of two party politics at Westminster.
After the 6th of May whether it is Tweedledum or Tweedledee at No 10 will change little of substance in the continuing decline of public confidence in the institution of Westminster.
We are in for two months of aerated pap and nonsense dressed as policy and 'change' - and the political wonks wonder why the population at large is 'disengaged' in their wondrous campaigns.
Also, the EU is not all "capitalist!" What about about all the countries with more of a social model, like in Scandinavia, Holland and France?
I though the majority of Europhobes tended to be more right wing based?
I love this comment!!!! Tell you what! GIve us a vote and you'll have your answer... Lets have the labour party put this euroscepticism in the dock, give us a referendum and let us the people speak...
"I though the majority of Europhobes tended to be more right wing based?"
Based on what evidence?
Jo, I am not Tom I know, but I suspect there are a great many people from all parties and none who are - if not hostile to the EU - somewhat jaded by it. They see beurocrats making laws we have to follow (it is thanks to the EU that the Royal Mail had to have competition from private cherry-ickers - although it has to be said the UK started this several years before they actually had to do it). And of course the EU accounts haven't been signed off in years. Probably disenchanted Tories are more likely to vote UKIP, but I do know one person who has always been a Labour voter (he is 67 now) but joined UKIP last year. I know one swallow doesn't make a summer, but I think especially in the wake of our expenses scandal, people in general are more sceptical these days.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-mp-blocks-bill-targeting-vulture-funds-1920708.html
Christopher Chope was the MP who called "object" and thus the bill was lost, which would have protected poor nations to some degree.
I am sure you would like to know a little more about Mr Chope, 62, MP for Christchurch?
I have just consulted the Telegraph Complete Expenses Files (2009). here goes:
"Chope transported his sofa from his second home in London to his Christchurch constituency to have it reupholstered, and billed taxpayers £881. He said a local craftsman offered better value for money on the 'unserviceable' sofa. 'What were we to do?. Either we got rid of it, or do something about it'.
What indeed.
Mr Chope also claimed £4800 for food (well, he's a growing lad)
Marc Roche(I think co writer at Le Monde)- referred to the current ory party as "Little Englanders" and I think said that they have "antagonism in their blood."
GO's reference to Sarkozy as a "dwarf" was seen as "anti foriegner."
All very strong stuff!
Glad to see Glenys Wilmott posting on LL- I have a lot of respect for her.
Will actually try to read the article when more time permits!
Thankyou, Jo.
And this old nonsense bothers you?
1 The vast majority of the Tory vote is Eurosceptic
2 Had Lisbon gone to a vote in the UK it would have been thrown out, something you leftist MEPs know very well, hence the betrayal over the referendum
3 The grouping of France and German right wing MEPs is FEDERALIST, the Tory party and UK is not.
4 Therefore all Cameron has done is adopt policies his country and party support and align his MEPs with a group that has the same view on the EU.
Meanwhile Labour MEPs sit in Brussels helping force endless EU legislation down the necks of the UK public whether they like it or not. You sit supporting a corrupt anti-democratic organisation intent on moving ever closer to a federal Europe, despite knowing the UK public wants none of it. You break manifesto pledges, block the public having any say and then have the nerve to try to cover this by saying "we are influencing".
The reason for all this? Because you haven't got the balls to include some of the rubbish the EU legal forces on us in a GE manifesto and instead can sit and slip it through via EU legislation that the public has no control or say over.
You are morally and ethically challenged on the EU, so you wriggle and writhe like snakes in a pit attempting to obfuscate the issue by going on about who the Tories are grouped with.
Despicable but exactly what you'd expect from a Labour MEP.
What chance of this getting through to be posted I wonder, a little too close to the mark for the left to be comfortable given their love in with the EU I suspect.
It is the pro-EU establishment that controls our main political parties that have denied the British people of their voice over the undemocratic, capitalist and corporatist EU.
That's called acting consistently with your principles.
Meanwhile, what happened to the promised referendum on the constitution/Lisbon treaty? And don't try to pretend that the latter is not in substance the former.
Alex, these continuous attacks on the Tories show a lack of a positive message from the left after 13 years in power. I thank there is a story in there somewhere.
Labour needs to at least attempt to put forward a positive agenda, not more attacks.
When the Tories win then Europe will have no choice but to court him. We pour billions in and laws will decrease our business advantage especially in the city.
I realise that it's easy to take the chamberlin approach which Brown has done in possibly the most cowardly way (signing the lisbon treaty behind closed doors, not being in group photos but giving in to france) but thats not what the UK needs.
My only fear about Cameron is if he will be tough enough.
Time to call the EUs bluff (and I say this as a general supporter of the euro and the EU)
Wrong on both counts. He won't win the next election but if he does (that sort of statement is used to frighten kids at night) he will find that the billions that we put into the EU are small compared to the billions put in by the other countries and hence he will have no special influence over them. Cameron will be on the sidelines unable to influence any decisions with only the "nuclear option" of pulling the UK out of the EU as his only lever. He won't be able to use that very often.
Basically, with Cameron in charge the EU will go in whatever direction it likes, with Brown in charge we will be able to steer the EU in a direction that would be more suitable for us.
A popularist move and a smart one though. The people who consider themselves and even term themselves the "political elite" of the EU are best kept at bay i(ncluding the undemocratically selected ones) during these difficult times across the whole of Europe if you want votes.
The International "stage" has become exactly that, a media circus. I suspect the Tories will not be so likely to have any luvvies enjoying the limelight as Blair did, who is no longer the young articulate idealist he was, and merely a pro-Bush sycophant in the eyes of many in the International Community. Cameron will have a more measured and cautious approach, and unlike Blair will not have to work very hard to get media support and attention.
Whoever is the the next PM has to tread carefully with the EU and the International community as the pressure is on to address domestic issues, many of which have been neglected (as difficult as this may be to understand by Ministers whose "schemes " have not addressed significantly any core issues).
More investment has occured, but was short term and the core economic problems in the UK from Wales to Glasgow to Dagenham have not been addressed. There will be little sympathy in any country for others as the economic pain of unemployment and failure to re-skill employees begins to take root and the real anger begins to seek a platform to take shape.