By Alex Smith / @alexsmith1982
For me, the most powerful passage from Michael Merrick's brilliant, frank assessment of Labour's recent relationship with the poor last week was the part that said:
"The Labour Party has embraced an ideology that actively undermines the beliefs and culture of ordinary working people. Immigration, whilst the most topical, isn't the only battleground. One by one, it seems that the social and cultural outlook of many is scorned upon by an elite who, whilst laughably painting themselves as on the side of the 'oppressed', choose to studiously ignore this particular subjugation. On issues ranging from school/parental discipline ('child abuse'), to capital punishment ('barbaric'), to patriotism ('Little Englander'), to Euro-scepticism ('xenophobic'), to immigration ('racist'), to morality ('bigoted') - across all these issues and more, the general beliefs of vast swathes of the electorate are demonised and ridiculed by an elite interested only in securing the dominance of their own particular worldview."
It was a passage that struck a chord with me when I first read it, but which chrystalised yet again yesterday when I encountered two BNP voters on the doorstep in an area that would formerly have been considered dyed in the wool Labour. These people weren't racist - not at all - but they did feel personally let down.
One woman said to me:
"Labour only cares about helping immigrants. All our rights have gone to Europe, all our money's gone to helping people who have just arrived when we always had problems of our own. Immigrants seem to get brand new houses, we get nothing."
Another man said:
"I'm not racist, but I feel like only the BNP speak for me now."
It's reassuring to see that government ministers are at last beginning to understand the ferocity of this resentment. John Denham said today that some local agencies, in tackling issues of racism and race inequality have been too often "blind" to the issues of the "poorer, white working class communities" and must "re-assess the way they work". And earlier this month, Gordon Brown said "immigration is an issue to be dealt with...if people ask me, do I get it? Yes, I get it."
It's an issue I addressed at an event last week, when I argued that No Platforming the BNP merely gives the message that we're not even willing to engage with people's deepest concerns.
But I do still doubt that these new realisations, after twelve years in power, are taking hold because they are at the core of our party elders' social and economic thinking or whether they are being set merely as a result of this year's BNP advances. They do still seem to be either perfunctory or reactionary.
Instead of a few deliberately crafted asides or speeches to the assembled lobby, Labour's position on immigration will require much deeper thought, and a broad, wide-ranging and open debate.
For better or worse, immigration is an issue that should be front and centre in the next general election, and a key topic for discussion in the possible televised debates, as it almost always is in the US. Only when that happens will Labour be able to address voters' concerns on these matters and make the positive case for immigration that it has - up to now - too often failed to do.
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No story in particular- but there are many ongoing ones that are interesting, that seem to get lost on the front page, as stories are rolling.I thought that recent one on "poverty" was particularly good.(maybe Michael Merrick.)
Yes- it would be great to have an archive of old stories available.(Also- one could refer to as new stories come up.)
Could I say again- the quality of the writing and articles are superb- I just wish I had more time to read and digress in detail!
I also noticed when I used to be on facebook- there is great support from Labour bloggers.
Good luck Alex, and thanks again.It will be an interesting time pre election...
I find as new stories are appearing fast, old ones disappear- and wonder is there an archive?
Maybe I'm missing an obvious button!
Regarding this article, for me the key issue is how immigrants are perceived as impacting on "working class" neighborhoods- in perhaps already deprived areas.Perhaps there are "hot spots" where tension is worse than others- eg in inner cities, where housing stock is low, and unemployment.
There is also a danger of ethnic groups becoming scapegoats for socety's problems- across the board, and regardless of circumstances.
Perhaps there needs to be ongoing social analysis of communities- although we don't often hear clear factual evidence in the press- only sensational headlines, or rhetoric from extremist parties.
Some research from experts might be interesting aired publicly, without any agenda?
My worry is that much of this situation fuels racism. There has been a recent racist attack in Huthwaite in Notts on an Asian retaurant owner; apparently not long before a BNP demonstration.(reported on the BBC Politics Show East Midlands about 2 weeks ago.)Also- a high profile attack on a community in Northern Ireland recently?
There has also been much coverage about the BNP annual festival in Denby Derbys, and the huge costs involved in policing that, and anti demonstrators.It is a nightmare for local people.
I was heartened though to watch the recent Question Time debate- I thought the public's views and questions were very sound and rational.
It is clearly a highly sensitive issue- but may be bound up with fears about the recession.
There used to be, yes, but it got lost in the redesign. Your comment has reminded me to reinstate it, so I'll try to do that asap.
Which item are you looking for?
In the meantime, here are a couple of ShortLists...
http://www.labourlist.org/the-shortlist---november-22nd
http://www.labourlist.org/the-shortlist---november-29th
Alex
I'm interested...this must be one of the most commented articles we've had on LabourList???? I hope the leadership finally 'get' how important this issue is to the public and how quickly and firmly they need to get hold of the debate before it is railroaded by extremists on both sides.
Not sure about the most commented, though. There have been some with over 200...Michael Merrick's original had well over 100. The old Draper/McBride ones had hundreds, I think. Although you may be right that this is one of the first with good, back and forth debate on both sides.
I'm interested to know where the real power comes from and what fuels it?
I think the tabloid media for one,and celebrity obsessed culture etc are a big "shark" indeed- and mass consumerism gone mad.
This all seemed to proliferate big time from the 1980's onwards, when "community spirit" seem to vanish?
Sorry off topic- but sometimes these issues are related.
I do believe this Goverment has turned its back on both the working class and its policy on immigration has caused alot of the problems we now face.
I am actually against EU immigration rather than Asylum seekers, allowing 420 million people the right to come and live and work in the UK is a serious problem. I believe the Goverment wanted this to happen to keep wages down and fill vacancies that the unemployed were not willing to do, as Bliar and Brown were too cowardly to actually sort out the dole queues as promised.
We all remember Mr Bliar promising "to think the unthinkable" and then seen the dole queues double, so we now have 8 million people not at work. Some of these claimants will be genuine and unable to work, however the majority do not think its worth working as they earn more in benefits!
Allowing millions to enter the Country, knowing most will end up living in deprived white working class areas, was irresponsible and nasty. We cannot help our own living in these awful conditions but wish to make the problem worse by expecting immigrants to live in these conditions too!
We were never given a vote on the EU, Mr Brown and Nu Labour broke thier promise and sold us down the river.
Now we have jails bursting with immigrants and serious problems with crime all over the UK. This is not scaremongering its fact and no surprise, as the Goverment was warned about this exact possibility, but as always Mr Brown chose to ignore this fact and instead lied about how many people they believed would come to the UK from the new EU States.
I appreciate this is an area of Policy that has to be dealt with in a non confrontational way, but if the Goverment do not actually do anything to change the staus quo, then they are playing into the hands off the BNP. The reason for this is no Party is promising to do anything about this other than to continue with the same failing Policy and the only option left for anyone unhappy about the Goverments immigration Policy is the BNP. So pretending that none of these problems exist is just not true and because of the vile Human Rights Act we are unable to deal with the problem.
In the last year another 150,000 people have arrived even though we are in the middle of the worst recession since the 1930s. How many more will arrive when the markets recover, how many more children will we have to teach in our overcrowded schools? how many more will need to be looked after in our over flowing hospitals? how much more tax will we have to pay to cover the housing needs of all these people?
These are all serious questions tha tneed anwsering and until we actually get a grip on this problem the BNP support will continue to rise.
The point of any social model of behaviour like the Dolphin, Shark and Carp is not that it is true but it represents what has been observed in a way that people can start to think about from first principles (just as you have clearly established in your response), it is in reality a metaphor or over simplification.
The simple point the authors were trying to make is that 'shark' management (non consensual) always ends up consuming itself as well as the 'carp'. Something with which the workers at Rover would surely agree and probably many Labour activists who door knock.
My own experience is many of the officers and NCO's I operated alongside in the RN behaved mostly in a 'Dolphin' attitude of leadership (consensual) at most times but could switch on 'shark' when it was deemed imperative or operationally required. In seven years as an RN I only gave one direct 'order' most of the time it was unnecessary as the people around me knew their jobs and I trusted them to do it properly.
Compare that with most legislation generated over the last ten years which is mainly to do with the micromanagement of our lives under the cover of 'security' but in fact turns people against each other, creates suspicion where none should be and does little to enhance community cohesion.
'Immigrants take our jobs', 'Scotland subsidised by England', 'Paedophile at every corner', 'All Muslims support terrorists', 'Gordon is going to impoverish the middle classes' - these are all headline variants of the same shark thinking from Westminster, do not let the people think for themselves.
Take crime, for example, per head of population there are fewer murders than there were 100 years ago in the Tories golden age of being English, there is less violent crime compared to 100 years ago, damage caused by rioting is less on every statistic the figures are vastly improved - go and look, the UK is safer now than ever before but that is not what Government wants us to know because that would mean we could trust our neighbour and would question the need for CCTV, ID cards amongst other wheezes.
It is one thing to be comfortable with mass immigration.
It is quite another to actively promote it. Many posters here fall into this latter category. WHY?
Unfortunately have limited time on here- but comments that stand out for me are Jessica's, Alex, Ralph and Peter.
Very refreshing to read intelligent arguments and honest opinions-maybe a Quetion Time type of debating forum might be useful locally?
Anyway- excellent comments- and real food for thought.
It isn't just immigration (but the level of immigration), it's the changing face of Britain (multiculturalism) and the fragmentation of society. And quite frankly if Labour had been honest and put that in their '97 manifesto I certainly wouldn't have voted for them and I'm sure a huge chunk of the electorate wouldn't have either.
Maybe they should focus on:
defend genuine asylum seekers.
insist on english language comptency for migrants.
defend its policy on highly skilled migrants.
build a serious amount of quality housing.
some kind of steps to bring disparate communities together and break down communalism.
I wouldn't be suprised if many people who might vote for the BNP will do so because they have no idea about what government policy is because its so poorly understood.
The cab is hard to get a apiontment and a big que , My only voice is the internet and friends(when they are not at work) .
My Partner has a mental illnes so i have to be alert 24 hours a day , I love her but it is hard work sometimes .
ricki
I am totally impressed with the open platform which you wisely pursued and advocated in dealing with the problems around the BNP.
I agree completely.
I meant that in a nice way
ricki
Make time to go to CAB or at least give them a phone and they may send some one round since your partner is housebound. Both Ralph and me know CAB will get a result faster than any politician.
That does not stop you from pressurising the councillors and MP's by the way, you can give them hell from an even better informed position.
Have just sent a email to the addres , Thanks and thanks Alex for turning Labourlist into a surgey.
ricki
I dont have time to get to the cab , The only contact i get (when not rushing to the shops) is the internet and a phone , Labourlist do not run idivadial campains ,
ricki
:charles.fairbrass@lbbd.gov.uk
Ricki, he is YOUR councillor, he is the Mayor.
Write to him and ask for help.
I have just forwarded my electric problem to Mr Cruddas and Mr Cameron , I will await there replys , I dont what will happen but i just hope for help
ricki
If you want this dealt with promptly I would certainly advise a visit to the nearest Citizens Advice Bureau. Writing to MPs - even the most helpful and most highly motivated will take weeks to get a resolution.
Dont hang about got straight to the people who are there just for this purpose - and it is completely free.
There are Consumer watchdogs you can contact too and as was pointed out yesterday the Citizens Advice Bureau can help.
If nobody helps then ask Alex to send the details to me and I will look into it.
There is a book on sustainable business practice that uses a model, applicable to any group of humans, which predicates there are two sorts of humans in most social groups carp (who wonder where the next meal is coming from) and sharks (who know there is not enough food to go round, so grab it all). The individual carp is of a constant size while individual sharks come in all shapes and sizes. If you pour more carp into the mix the level of fear about lack of food amongst carp rises and the sharks respond by increasing their feeding activity.
BNP , Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories are all sharks happy to eat each other and the carp (voters) when ever and where ever possible because they 'know' there are not enough votes to go round. The carps' natural response is to sink into the depths (apathy) where they can't be seen and leave the sharks to fight it out and then seek to vote for the shark they think will eat the least of them. Unsurprisingly the carp find that it does not matter which shark they vote for the end result is the same, they are screwed. This, in a nutshell, is the reality of Westminster politics.
The business model has a third player - the dolphin - who recognises there is enough to go round but to make this happen you have to do things differently in an inclusive manner sometimes eating carp, sometimes eating sharks, sometimes giving up your own to feed the others but always using resources for the maximum benefit of all. Dolphin lead businesses are routinely successful, innovative and sustainable - Branson's Virgin label is probably the best known UK example.
Now name me a UK political party that is not a shark by nature and instinct and you will have a political party who can begin to deal with the problems that face the UK in the 21st Century.
Its deeper , Labour are supposed to help the poor and working class , I fear that Labour values a slipping from the country
ricki
It is going to be a deep depressing recession, very few of the people elected will give a flying toss about any of us. They will flourish and blab, but there will be cuts across the board, everyone is going to suffer who is realiant on support. It happens in all recessions there simply is not the money.
As for the PLP (not the Party as that would be an unfair statement though I am sure some are just as bad) are most certainly more in love with banks and their own hides than the country never mind the vulnerable.
I don't even need to try and substantiate that last comment it has been proven already by their conduct.
Havent got much to smile about at the moment , Feel let down by politics
ricki
(am not the sharpest tool in the box) , I feel people have been forgotten and then treated as numbers , every policy at the moment harms the poor most
ricki
See? I think you could use a few rays of the sun to cheer you up along with the rest of us.
But I won't give up and there is a long campaign ahead and many frowns to turn upside down ;)
Good post but , Voters dont trust mps because they abuse words and words matter , At the moment voters feel like its them (the politcal class) and us ( voters) , Voters feel they have no control anymore .
ricki
That is why I chose that particular quotation ;) and of course the "New" philosophy might be New Labour to you, but to me it is in the rejection of most things Left by the the very foolish Labour Government.
And they certainly have no one with the wit to once again spark the fire or light up our imaginations with the warmth of the sun.
The leadership ignored it for so long calling anyone who mentioned it racist , That now looking low in the polls the now go populor policys , They really do think we are stupid .
ricki
http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/11/23/the-truth-about-immigration-the-migrants-you-dont-hear-about-in-the-tabloids/
http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/11/26/the-truth-about-immigration-asylum-part-1/
http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/11/27/the-truth-about-immigration-asylum-part-2/
Which attempt to relay the truth about immigration rather than the usual diet of tabloid hysteria.
Gosh! I didn't know the right acronym (or whatever). I doff my cap suh!
Who called anybody a bigot? We've allowed a system of "structural" prejudice to develop, especially as new technology has been adopted, which is effectively prejudiced against the less & least well off. It is not "human" prejudice it is "institutional". It is still prejudice & it can certainly be felt. Because it doesn't have a name, because it isn't human to human, it is hard to pinpoint, and difficult ot articulate. It affects all ethnicities at the bottom of the economic heap, but the bnp has cottoned on to it & twisted it to suit its own purposes among the WWC.
You quote a woman who says.
"Labour only cares about helping immigrants. All our rights have gone to Europe, all our money's gone to helping people who have just arrived when we always had problems of our own. Immigrants seem to get brand new houses, we get nothing."
Well surely then this woman needs to be educated rather than having her ignorance pandered to.
Yes there will always be a section of the population who wants to stop immigration, bring back hanging ang flogging, leave Europe etc, but these people already have a party to represent these views; The BNP. These are not policies that any party aspiring to be "progressive" should entertain. The path you are outlining is a dead end.
By allowing wage suppression, the working classes (all stripes) of this country have become a "supplicant" class - in work or not, they're always in receipt of some benefit or other, even if it's styled a "tax credit". Lower pay & less job security mean that even with all sorts of "benefits" one spends ones life half on half off the first rung of the financial ladder. Then someone like madasa fish comes along and shows them how resources are being pumped into making life easier for new immigrants.
And, for heavens sake, there is structural discrimination within our financial institutions, within our utilities, and others, not just between their employees (top & bottom - different set of rights/entitlements entirely) but because people on low incomes are penalised & charged more! That's across the board, but it leads to a genuine feeling, that "somebody" is prejudiced against you, a feeling which it is very hard to explain or articulate for the WWC, but as I said, which is being exploited by the bnp. I'm certain much of it is indeed down to the sense of financial exclusion, the deep sense of unfairness at having less access, or being charged punitive/usurious rates on a small loan, or at far higher rates for gas & electricity supplies - & if things go wrong, having to be a "supplicant" again for yet more aid. These are issues which do need to be considered as significant contributors to the political disconnect.
Agree re the problem being hard to articulate. To me one problem has been the gradual erosion of various events, organisations and places that underpinned working class culture. Often these seem very minor on their own, but taken together they gain weight. For example:
Pubs and clubs have been closed, often converted into flats
Playing fields which used to be used by local pub sports teams have been lost
Old army regiments have been disbanded and merged - resented by families who took a lot of pride in their and their children's military service
Old industries, workplaces and work patterns which fostered a sense of community have closed
Regenerated centres often take no account of old social relationships
Also, there has emerged a new, nasty kind of manager who takes advantage of weaker unions to speak to workers in unpleasant abnd bullying ways that would not have been possible years ago with stronger unions in place. This lot are an unrcognised cause of fears re immigration because they explicitly threaten to bring in immigrant labour if existing workers complain re conditions.
Taken altogether these kinds of things feel like the loss of a culture, BUT there has until now been little public discussion (led by council diversity workers, educationalists and so on) of working class community and culture, while - and this is where it gets awakward - the community and culture words HAVE been used for people of foreign descent.
It was a problem that could be seen coming 10 years ago in some parts of Yorkshire - nothing was done, because no one could work out what to do. One social worker has told me, tongue in cheek, that in retrospect, it might have been a good idea to categorise white working class as an ethnicity.
Finally tax credits - spot on. A hidden fact in the benefits debate is that with tax credits paid to the working poor, the Government is using taxpayers money to subsidise unscrupulous employers who pay less than living wages. The Polish blokes who work with my brother in law at a coachworks in Hull wet themselves laughing about it.
We shouldn't pander to Daily Mail lies and bigotry about immigrants but proudly make the case that immigration of people from all backgrounds is good for the UK.
"The vast majority of immigrants into the UK are white Americans or Australians. Scandinavians and Western Europeans also make up a significantly large part of the immigrant population."
You just made that up, didn't you? You needed it to be true so it became a "common sense fact"- even though 5 seconds with Google proves it to be rubbish. From the Home Office:
"The composition of the current UK
migrant population has, of course, been conditioned by immigration policy over the past 50 years. The
foreign-born population is very diverse, including (amongst the working age group) people from elsewhere in
the EU (23%) who are not subject to immigration controls, those from the Indian sub-continent (20%), from
Africa (19%), and from the Americas (11%) including Canada and the USA."
Further on in the same document
"In terms of labour market activity, the foreign-born population overall tends to perform worse than the UK born,
with lower employment and labour market participation rates and a higher unemployment rate. These
outcomes are more marked for females than males and vary considerably according to different migrant
groups. Migrants from “white” ethnic backgrounds tend to perform as well as, or better than the existing
population – in terms of their employment and participation rates and wage levels. Migrants from ethnic
minority backgrounds, on the other hand, do worse than the UK-born. Ethnic minority migrants are
additionally less likely to be employed or to participate in comparison to people from the same ethnic group
who were born in the UK."
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/occ82migrantuk.pdf
That's not one of your fictitious Daily Mail bogeymen saying it, it's the New Labour Home Office. Are those "common sense facts" too?
Whilst the majority may be white and English speaking (I would like to see numbers that back that up btw) they are relatively invisible or 'acceptable as one of us' Moreover, these people tend to live in the South of England and integrate into the wider community, rather than live in localised groups.
What can be termed the 'most visible' immigrants tend to live more in the old industrial heartlands where the white working class are most present,West Yorks, Lancs etc.
Thus immigration cannot be treated the same over the whole country. Proclaiming a London centric view of immigration simply runs counter to what large numbers of people experience and hence your views are not believed.
So before calling people bigots and bandying around your own misconceptions.
Get your facts right.
On Michael's metric, I am presumably the worst offender in the uniform eyes of the white working class. On parental discipline, I believe that smacking children reinforces violence in society and is an often ineffective way of building a sense of discipline in the long-term. This is not the opposite of bringing up children without discipline - if anything I think we allow our kids to eat too much junk, watch too much crap on tv and break the rules too often. I fully oppose the death penalty - apart from the fact that even states in the US are now moving away from using the penalty because of miscarriages of justice coming to light, I think that humans can and should be redeemed. Forgiveness is one of the most noble and advanced of human emotions. I am not opposed to patriotism - I take deep pride in being British and in loving the land we live in. But I do worry about patriotism becoming a cover for racism - out campaigning I have learnt that a St George's flag stuck on a door is often a sign of someone who dislikes the idea of black and brown people living in this country. I am pro-European and think there is much less to fear from the European Union than most people think. This isn't the same as thinking we should be part of one big superstate, however. I think the same about people's fears about immigration - that much of their worry comes from misinformation and a sense of powerlessness over their own lives. Which is where I would agree with Joshua - we do best when we raise people out of poverty than when we close down our borders in order to make people feel they are safe from the threat of foreign outsiders. And yes, I do not like others forcing morality on me particularly if their morals say that homosexuality is a sin, if living outside marriage is a sin, that women shouldn't work and that atheism will land you in hell.
I'm worried that "acknowledging" the views of some white working class people (because a great deal of these people do not vote BNP, never will and aren't against all of the above) will mean endorsing or pandering to racism. It will mean agreeing with madasafish below that any money going towards immigrants in a recession is "non-essential" and therefore should be taken away. At which point when you say as a government spokesperson, "yes I recognise that immigration has put a strain on public services" (which Gordon Brown did in his speech) does this simply reinforce someone's deeply held views that all immigrants are here to live on benefits/take council housing/have too many kids/break the law/get preference over white people? Philip Wells is pretty sure in his view that GPs surgeries are full because of immigrants, that we have an open borders policy unlike any other country, that immigrants don’t bother to teach their children English, and that we let immigrants in who don’t have anything to contribute to this country. The fact is that in some cases Philip will be right, but not in most. And it is the tarring of all immigrants with the same brush that I am offended by. Because we have largely moved away from outright racism (no blacks, no dogs, no Irish), it means that people who don’t think that Africans, Asians or Poles should have a right to live in this country but know that they can’t be open about it blame immigration for everything that is wrong in society.
The working class has a heritage of being involved in anti-racism campaigns, of campaigning for women’s rights of embracing education (the Worker’s Education Association for example). Instead of aping the BNP to win back support, we should be inspiring our working class communities to remember their past, celebrate it and recapture it. It is obviously true that the Labour Party is out of touch with people who used to support it, and it is true that some people like me involved in the Labour Party are often well educated and seen to be out of touch therefore, but this does not mean that the Labour Party should turn its back on everything it has always stood for – equality for women, equality for people from all races and backgrounds, and international solidarity with our brothers and sisters. I believe in the words of John Donne “No man is an Island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main.”
"The working class has a heritage of being involved in anti-racism campaigns"
I'd be genuinely interested to know which campaigns you're thinking of - I can only think of the anti-fascist movement in the 30s that was really authentically an organic working class campaign. Obviously the unions ran campaigns from the 70s onwards but the inconvenient truth is that these were often poorly supported by rank and file.
The early Labour Party, led by Hardie, opposed immigration.
BTW sorry to quibble, but did the LP really "always" support equality for women? I always thought women's suffrage took 30 odd years to become policy.
Certainly one which highlights the common problems we face. I think it is fair to say that not all those opposed to Immigration are working class or indeed BNP, as I think UKIP did very well in the European Elections with a support base that was very much not working class.
One of the lessons John Cruddas learnt when dealing with the issue of "Englishness" was to reclaim it away from those who considered themselves nationalistic but were in fact racists. By encouraging people to enjoy their own flag as an expression that should not be curtailed or controlled and also in making a serious effort in promoting St Georges day, which I might add was a great success in Dagenham. There is no shame to be had in this as control freakery has only aided those ruthless individuals who would abuse and make claim that we are somehow ashamed of our identity.
Of course it really comes down to being able to distinguish between racisim which is factually incorrect and irrational and a genuine sense of helplessness when a community is transformed dramatically over a short period of time without respect or communication with those people by the Politicians as to how and why the changes occur.
I have met racists when knocking on doors and I have also listened to those who are concerned about Immigration but are certainly not racists.
I am more than happy to substantiate this claim with canvass experience that my colleagues have experienced and we have discussed during the campaign so far, here in Barking and Dagenham.
One of my personal concerns regarding Immigration is the lack of consideration by Government at all levels as to the tolerances and carrying capacity of the infrastructure where major population change takes place, as well as the sociological consequences created by such change.
But I think we have to be grown up about this and start talking about population and demographics because that is what it is.
Of course the Net Immigration and population increase has placed an increased burden on Public Services, but it has also helped to relieve some services too the problems are varied depending whereabouts in Britain you travel too.
The discussion has to be specific and complex because it is complex.
In terms of identity Jessica Asato and others are correct, it should be celebrated, we do have some magic moments that identify us as a great people. Especially those occasions when we as one have defied tyranny, prejudice, unfairness and of course helping out others as well as ourselves.
We have some things to not be proud of too, but as a country we do tend to question our actions which we have gained through experience.
There are many well educated people that are prejudiced and many who are not, it is not a trait that lends itself to the "working class", however those people do genuinly feel let down currrently and the reasons are both legitimate and not so much so.
In Barking and Dagenham people feel let down because the decline in the source of wealth here came about when the major employers such as Ford began to cut back and almost completely disappear, there was a great hope that after Thatcher, Labour would replace this and restore the economy and jobs in the area.
Many people here bought their own council houses from the scheme that permitted them to do so and the provision of council houses became much reduced. Private Agencies then rented out properties and allocated housing and such houses were taken up quickly by a middle class group of people who were of culturally diverse backgrounds.
The frustration exhibited itself when the latter generation could not do as thier parents did and buy council houses of their own, this gave the perception to both generations that things were in a more drastic decline. After all the situation from the perspective parent was that their children could not enjoy the same choices that they had and of course the younger generation felt frustrated as the economy here would not support adequatly enough to afford a House on the open market.
A sense of betrayel then when someone is prevented from bettering themselves.
More than this the population inflow from a variety of sources in Barking and Dagenham was more drastic than in many other parts of the country thus creating great change very rapidly and the local people were surprised and shocked at the degree to which their community changed.
Add to this the BNP adding their vicious lies and you can easily distinguish between a frustrated local "working class" and those who are genuinly misguided and of the belief that the BNP can restore some non-existent paradise of England that never existed.
The expectations of many people are very high and the Politicians ignored it. The effect of some immigration in some places from a variety of sources as some people are confused with being "Immigrants" when in fact they have only moved in from another part of London or England. But in its impact when intense over a short period of time has a way of changing the habitual character of a place and upsetting people who have lived there for generations.
I prefer to treat all people the same regardless of their so-called "class" who I deal with, but I have met a few BNP voters so far that I would not really describe as working class as I remember the term, and have met one or two middle income families here who will be voting for Mr Griffin.
There will certainly be many working people (working class or otherwise) who will most certainly still be voting for us and not the BNP come the election.
The problems faced by many of these people are legitimate and cannot be ignored, clumsy generalisations when discussing this topic are very foolish, and there is no bilateral divide between "working class Nationalism" and "Liberalism", in fact if the poorer members of the community had a little equality of Liberalism to express themselves freely on their own I think there would be some mitigation of the anger that rests out there.
Of course the solution is simple, since the core problem across the UK is not Immigration but a lack of Community Cohesion, the work is to encourage the communities to work together on common themes whilst listening too and understanding the nature of the people's individual frustrations. Also those coming here must respect our culture as we respect theirs.
(When I was overseas I paid the very highest tribute and honour to the culture of the Country I was visiting and was treated respectfully in return, I certainly would not have asked them to put away their national flag for fear of upsetting my Liberal tastes, I think they would probably have been deeply offended by this as a gesture).
In conclusion and I'll once more quote the statistsc collected by a very brave man and this was from 2006 when he asked people why they voted BNP, only 2% of the whole BNP support were actually natural BNP voters and supporters.
An important statistic.
I remember very well meeting many racists long before the BNP were elected in Barking and Dagenham, and very few of them were and I dare say, still are "working class".
The people just need somewhere to vent their anger at the inactions and actions in Parliament to punish those they perceive to be conjoined as the "Liberal Elite" (as Nick griffin cunningly terms them whenever he can).
Since Jessica Asato seems to like quoting John Donne, I shall too (The anatomy of the World);
"And new Philosophy calls all in doubt,
The element of fire is quite put out;
The Sun is lost, and th' earth, and no man's wit
Can well direct him where to look for it"
Who can they vote for and who can tell them why they should?
I would say in your answer, you have absolutely no idea what the working class is, or what their aspirations are.
Let me tell you as a working class boy made good.
1. They do not want patronising unlike the twoddle you have written. They want to improve their lot in life. Not by handouts but by having the knock of opportunity come their way. They want to work, they strive to improve their lot.
2. They want good schools, schools that will help their children escape the drudgery of their lives, get a good education and meaningful work. They feel that through learning their kids can escape the job insecurity and low wages; a better quality of life.
3. They want to feel safe, at home, on the streets. They want effective policing. Policing that sorts out the scallies that perpetrate the petty crime and meaningless vandalism. They want policing that means that if their is trouble it is sorted out properly.
4. They want more money in their pocket. Lower taxation to spend their money how they want. Not forms to fill out for credits or complex benefits. They don't mind paying tax for good public services; they don't like seeing money wasted though.
5. They want good hospitals, ones that treat them and do it with dignity. They don't want to share a mixed sex ward, they don't want to catch something in hospital.
5. They want their community to stay their community. This is the most contentious part because Labour in all its wisdom called the working class 'racist' for objecting to what they saw as the destruction to their social cohesion.
They didn't vote for more immigration, I don't remember any Labour MP telling them that they were going to get more immigration
What the working class had to endure because of Labour's policy was..
1. Their jobs undercut and taken from them.
2. Their schools with more and more pupils with English not as a first language getting 'perferential' treatment.
3. Increases in crime, new migrants committing offences especially in London.
4. Commununities where suddenly they feel they have been diluted, local councils outreach to establish specific services to these migrants. It is seen that they are taking out resources they didn't put in. It certainly doesn't help that council literature is then printed in up to a dozen different languages.
Whether it is true or not, they are seen to 'jump the queue'.
The working class are patriots, they are loyal to this country, they give their sons and daughters to the armed forces and they are fiercely proud of this country. They are kind and generous to all even when they have little themselves. They will dig deep to help those in trouble or have experienced loss.
There is an informal contract, they expect all people in this country to speak its mother tongue, they expect people to understand our values and our history. That's not to say they don't want to integrate... need I say anymore than Chicken Tikka Masala?
What Labour did was not just take advantage of that, they poured scorn on it. They sneered at the 'small-mindedness' and bandied words like 'bigot', 'xenophobe' and 'racist'.
They told the working class that they can lump it, after all Labour had support from the middle classes. Labour thought they were far more 'cosmopolitian' enjoying the benefits of the Polish plumber or Latvian Au-pair.
If you think the damage can be undo, you are very much deluded and mistaken. The damage is done and these people now live in the society Labour has created for them.
When Labour politician say they knew the damage that immigration was causing and did nothing; the working class have long, long memories.
If you think spending money on new immigrants is essential, please include in Labour's manifesto.
My view is that we can't categorise people into "immigrants" and "natives" to grant or deny benefits to. That's where I'd agree with Jessica; if we do that we start playing the BNP's game. Where do you draw the line as to who is what? Six months? A year? A generation? Is it even helpful to draw those lines in the kind of society we want to live in? I don't think it is.
We should provide benefits to those who need them and who have been left behind by the wider system, but to me that's not an immigration debate, that's a welfare debate.
In this argument, by that I mean we should have set provisions in our budgets for new immigrants, but if we're going to do that, we need to know our systems - both political and welfare - can handle the costs and so plan for and budget for the amount of immigration we can comfortably afford along those lines.
Period.
Remove the economics and the reason for immigration disappears.
I've seen the huge new offices and huge staffing employed to manage immigration. Not only are we paying benefits, we are spending many £ millions on "managing" it.
Money could be better saved...
I don't want immigration to disappear. And I don't want to remove economics from the argument.
This is an island built on immigration; our success is founded on generations of successful immigration. And I'm proud that our economy and our culture makes people from around the world want to come and work here. I don't believe for a second - as my parents do out of interest - that migrants come here to be caught in a life or spiralling reliance on the state or for our "soft" benfefits. I believe they come here because we have a history and tradition of democracy, economic success, innovation, creativity and because they want to work - and, yes, because we welcome that inclusion. If people who want to be involved in that then get left behind, too, then, yes, they should be eligible to claim benefits as anyone else would. That's caled fairness. So the issue, as I say, is to find a way to make sure there is always contingency in welfare for all the immigration we permit. It is then a case of deciding on those numbers so we can reconfigure the welfare state around that.
"So the issue, as I say, is to find a way to make sure there is always contingency in welfare for all the immigration we permit."
How much do you think we should permit?
In times of recession, a Government;'s duty must first be to its own citizens.
What would really confuse the Daily Mail is if they started running out of the Eurotunnel loudly complaining about the French wearing berets and eating horses.
I think that if the economic position was different and, in particular, housing had been given a much higher priority, then there may be a lower level of resentment.
But, lets think through what was claimed in the original article. If Labour 'respond' to the sort of reactionary views portrayed, they will:
- support corporal and capital punishment
- adopt a nationalistic position
- be hostile to Europe
- support further restrictions on immigration
- adopt 'conservative' views on many 'moral' issues
Some of those issues certainly need more discussion but I do not think it can be assumed that the outcome would be to agree. Indeed, in some cases, it would be a major mistake to do so simply because it would fundamentally alter what a left-of-centre party should stand for.
Economic populism and social conservatism isn't the answer.
Then we look at the increasing urbanisation and inevitably the concept of loss of sense community arises but I have friends who live in Stoke Newington and Highbury and they have a close knit local community that looks out for both young and elderly.
I suggest Hazico what you and many of us are feeling is increasingly dis-empowered by an over weaning, centralising Government whose legal machinations have actually reduced the importance of community, taken away a local sense of who we are, local self esteem and replaced it with a sense that everyone is a criminal and needs ID'd, legislated against and anyone who tries to say otherwise is being unreasonable in these 'dangerous times', is clearly a BNP supporter, a pederast or potential rapist and therefore guilty as charged. Government Legislation and posturing is creating fear where it does not need to exist ignores people's actual needs and concerns for legislation that deals with a small number of big ticket offences, leaves communities wondering just what is the point and individuals becoming even more isolationist and introverted.
We have too many badly thought through pieces of legislation which impact more on people and communities than the people they are supposed to control and that is, indirectly, what the BNP and UKIP are tapping into.
Sorry but we provide interpreters and classes in English free and foregn language leaflets and guides etc for the immigrants.
Don't speak English? Not a disadvantage.. There are three generations of ex Pakistani immigrants whose daily language is not English...
We have a benefits system geared to helping immigrants..
Why do you care if a leaflet is written in swahili or anything other language? I live in Wales and everything is converted into welsh.. its a terrible waste of money but apparently its worth it in the end.
"There are three generations of ex Pakistani immigrants whose daily language is not English..."
Again, why do you care? If those people of pakistani descent go out and work in the world theyre going to be speaking english, why must you pry into the languages they speak in their own homes?
oh give it up..
The kind of response which gives Labour its current reputation as a party which does not care about WWC issues..
You obviously have a deaf ear.
My father is Hungarian, and was a refugee during the 1956 Revolution/Uprising, having lived through horrific times in WWII.Many risked their lives to escape. He has lived here for 50+ years, and has worked hard, and loves this country.I'd imagine many have moving stories to tell, and many 2nd and 3rd generations living here.
I do agree recently there may have been too big an influx of economic migrants in a short space of time, impacting on communities.But what maddens me is this homogenous term of "assylum seekers" and "foreigners" as if all illegal, and xenophobic. This has been whipped up greatly in the tabloid papers.
Also- migration is occurring across Europe and globally.
What about Brits moving abroad?
I can also see many positive benefits migrants have made to Britain throughout history.
Sorry must go now- will try to return tomorrow.
I've just read some of the FAQ in the Runneymeade article. I really would be very careful about proclaiming it too wildly. Even on a very quick read it contains some absolute howlers that completely fail to address the problems that are actually raised.
For evidence try the question about being the only white boy in school at the bottom of page 60.
Now, consider the answer given that the question that would have been asked is more liely to have been that "80% of the children in my son's class don't speak english as a first language and this is holding him back"
If there is a rainbow coalition against immigration, why must the BNP be at the centre of it, why can't these people create there own party that represents their true values minus that rather nasty racist core that the BNP have. Voting for the BNP is a cop out plain and simple.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there's alot of whining going on here, the opportunities to get on in life are there for the taking, maybe if they spent less time wondering why the 'darkies' have a council house and more time working hard to excell in the work place they would be better off.
Jesus they already have a head start over johnny foreigner they're english speaking white people for crying out loud.
Thay had one and someone stole it.
Whilst being glad that the government have finally woken up to this its very clearly just become an issue because there's an election a few months away and they need the votes desperately. Its all very cynical.
If people want scapegoats they should be after the politicians who have all but destroyed our parliament with their greed and hubris or the bankers who have robbed us blind and continue to do so.
Perhaps we need some sociologists on the case!
Philip- I don't think all BNP supporters are racist- just misled by what the leadership and ideology past and present is all about.
Yes- let's talk abou immigration etc- but let's be constructive and see it in context of what else is happening?
But actions speak louder... And frankly it's far too late to recognise the problem.
When economic times are hard (they are), and Government with any sense starts cutting non essential spending.
Supporting in any shape or form ANY immigrants who are unable to pay their own way either by working or from their own savings is clearly non - essential spending.
Period. Indisputable. FACT.
And we have a large Overseas Aid Budget as well.
Labour are seen as a Party for immigrants, single parents and those on benefits. And Scots.
The rest of the UK are treated as fodder to be taxed to pay for them.
The problem is with the groups that have difficulty with integration into our society & culture.
Which 'cultures' do you mean? Asian? or just some Asians? Muslims? All Muslims or only some?
But it would also be good to have a respectful debate too.
So many of our local bloggers can't seem to discuss anything unless being aggressive and attacking, and can't cope with differences of opinion.It becomes an either/or situation- getting nowhere.(a bit like heckling at a panto.)
I agree, we should all be having an adult debate- a bit like we heard on Question Time recently.
Perhaps local debates with local politicians or other public figures might generate some enthusiasm?
This is an issue that I have thought about long and hard coming as I do from one of the first parts of the country to have the BNP make a serious breakthrough in electoral politics as a long standing Labour party supporter and having gone on to work for an anti fascist organisation when I first left university.
I think that addressing immigration is something that politicians need to do and is a particular responsibility of Labour politicians; however I think I would disagree with your assessment of what we have to say. I think to assume racism on the part of the “white working class” is patronising in the extreme and often Labour politicians have been gutless when it comes to putting arguments for immigration and challenging the idea that the struggle for resources at the bottom is a zero sum game.
The same problems faced by the white working class are faced by everyone on low incomes those of inequality and the structural barriers that creates to engagement in society. Part of the cause of this is a failure of the Labour Government to reverse the massive increase in inequality of the Thatcher years.
The Runnymede Trust’s report ‘Who Cares About the White Working Class http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/publications/pdfs/WhoCaresAboutTheWhiteWorkingClass-2009.pdf is one of the best things I have read in recent years on the matter and I’d recommend all politicians read it before making boneheaded statements about immigration.
The gutless part as far as the Government is concerned is the total lack of an acknowledgement that immigration has caused problems in certain areas, has put extra strain on housing, schools etc and has caused a major change to people's daily lives. Seeing a sudden growth in communities speaking Polish, lithuanian etc and seeing lots of shops catering to their needs will alienate local people. The white working class are innately conservative (small c) they hate change. If you fail to acknowledge what is undoubtedly true in some areas your message that immigration is good gets lost because you aren't believed.
What is patronising is your assumption that acknowledging the views of white working class people will somhow pander to racists.
Like most things in life, immigration is good and bad. Treat people as adult and admit this.
I think we're all pretty confused; my own personal take is that somehow we've lost a sense of community and identity over time.It definitely started for me in the 80's- I could see the effects of individualism and a massive consumerism taking over our lives.
Having travelled a bit, I notice a real difference in countries like France and Denmark/Holland.There is a feeling of community and co operation almost anywhere.It seems to come down to their culture and attitudes. Whole generations can be seen eating outside restaurants in the evening, people smile when one walks past, and people notice each other.There is also a great atttiude towards children.Sounds idealistic- but the "norm" in my experience.
I grew up in the 70's and have happy memories of what I felt was "normal" life.Things were low key, children played outside; we weren't constantly bombarded by a consumerist culture.There was an atmosphere of greater respect and civility between people.
There was also a feeling of order and routine.
In my 20's in the 80's, and working in the NHS for many years- I noticed a big erosion in community values, and a yuppie culture emerging...as personified by Spitting Image and the Fast Show!
I think things have been getting worse, and didn't greatly improve with New Labour.
I think there has been a breakdown in society, and somehow we will have to redefine how we want to live, that is decent and fit for future generations.
We have a 10 year old son, and I try not to fear for his future- but things are so bad compred to when I was growing up.
Perhaps politicians have to raise their heads above the parapet, and reach some consensus over important issues...also the PEOPLE of this country need contribute to a debate.
Hope this makes some sense.
I'm not assuming racism on the part of the white working class, and I'm sorry if that is how it comes across. The hook here is what John Denham said today, so those were his words and don't paint the whole picture. But from the other comments here and what we all know about the country we live in, it is clear to me at least that this is a complex issue of not only social cohesion and equality, but also leadership at a political level. That's what I'm driving at with this thread.
I think this is one of the most honest and straightforward pieces i have read here on LL. Most are too long and seem written for a very small political clique.
I agree completely with what you have said above but the most telling phrase was in your comment below:-
"I myself found it quite difficult to write this, as I was naturally careful about what I said. In the end I just said what I thought. That, I think, says a lot about the situation we find ourselves in, since I'm not normally one to mince words!"
That someone who is known for their left of centre and liberal views to be so panicky about writing honestly tells us so much about the current level of debate. For too long the attitude has been "You mention immigration - You're racist - na na na I'm not listening"
Please please please. To All: drop the "All tories eat babies and are racist" attacks. This is far to important an issue and needs to be addressed in an adult manner. Carry on and you're sleepwalking to even more BNP votes.
I think writing honestly is fine. Much of the white working class is racist and whilst there are certainly policy decisions which haven't helped, what shouldn't be done is pander to that racism
When will Labour supporters realise the hatred and anger building over immigration is nothing to do with the financial crisis?
When will Labour suporters realise it is the fact the white working classes have been sidelined by OLabour in favour of immigrants?
I mean, it's clearly not all about perception. But where there are issues around perception, we all need to present the reality of the situation. And the reality is that Labour people don't sit around in north London wine bars, talking about the French philosopher Foucalt, and demonising people's concerns about immigration.
Don't worry that the British cannot get a Doctors appointment as they are so busy treating the millions of immigrants we have allowed in over the last 12 years, we need you to come and work for slave wages, undercutting those horrible white English people who have more sense than to work 40 hours a week for a pittance and the British will let me tax that tiny wage as well so we can look after you!
The British will moan, but we in Goverment don't care what they think!
I think the recent Question Time was excellent in that the audiences did not fit the stereotypes, and asked challenging questions.
I think the BNP are trading on people's fears due to the recession, and poorer regions.
I don't believe most people are racist; but maybe some of those voters have been misled, and don't know the full picture.
There certainly needs to be a reconnection with so called "working class" communities by the main parties- and in particular- Labour.
Nu Labour have used immigration to, what did they say "to force multiculturism down the throats of the right and change the face of Britian once and for all"
Everytime a story appears in the press such as the Somalian given asylum, who then gets married and has 8, yes 8 kids but never had a job, and now the Goverment are paying to keep him and his family in a luxury home with benefits to pay for everything. If there are no big houses in London, send him up North where there are streets of empty houses, if he was truly scared to live in his own Country, then the poorest council estate in Britian would be a better place to live? the anger over this story and others like it in the past prove beyond doubt that Nu Labour have lost the plot.
BUT, I think it's too easy to just accept this far-right narrative about Islington Guardianista figures - the ‘liberal elite’ etc. Who, exactly, are all these people who hysterically scream 'racist' everytime immigration comes up as a political issue, and 'Little Englander' everytime patriotism comes up?? These people exist primarily in UKIP's imagination. Where is all this demonising and ridiculing taking place?
I think the BNP support is a regional issue rather than a class problem that transcends the immigration debate, especially in former industrial and mill areas of the north of England, which have both big, Asian minorities and high unemployment.
I agree we definitely need to debate and confront immigration issues, but avoid doing so on the BNP's terms - ie. a race to the bottom on immigration, when it's a series of issues and perceptions bound together. For example, the BNP drove the immigration debate during the European elections, ignoring the fact that only fellow EU citizens – not the rest of the world – have a right to live and work in other EU countries and that loads of Eastern Europeans are now returning (currently more are leaving than coming).
I don't know.I think the immigration issue has partially flared up due to fears over the economy?
There does seem to be a lot less community spirit and cohesion felt...for me personally this started with the advent of individualistic politics of the 80's- but also with New Labour- too much embracing of this, and not connecting to traditional voters and "core" values.I think the "social divide" has been getting wider.
Perhaps we should be talking "class" instead of "race"- or maybe it's both....
I certainly abhor the type of Daily Mail and Sun politics, which seem to whip up fears and reinforce scapegoating and stereotypes.
One only has to read blogs on our local press to realise there's an awful lot of propoganda out there- in my opinion, doing little but to fuel cynicism and negativity.
Great writing Alex- really enjoy reading all.
And it's interesting what you say about race and class. Certainly, class - or whatever you want to call it, oppportunity, aspiration, etc, which are essentially related problems - in this country continues to be an area where there are real divisions.
I myself found it quite difficult to write this, as I was naturally careful about what I said. In the end I just said what I thought. That, I think, says a lot about the situation we find ourselves in, since I'm not normally one to mince words!
You would think that a General Election was imminent wouldn't you?